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CARCOSA [mirror/your pronouns] @hexbear.net

Update on federation

Hey hexbears just want to update everyone.

We took the weekend to properly consider and are removing: programming.dev , aussie.zone , and lemm.ee from our allow-list.

We will look at refederation with lemm.ee after local-only communities are developed. When that feature is available we would really like to consider changing every hexbear community to local-only except for chapotraphouse, askchapo, news, and the_dunk_tank. The final say on if a community is local only or not is 100% up to the mod team on that community.

The reason for this is that lemm.ee despite having twice our monthly active users has a 700k annual comment rate to hexbear's 1 million, in addition lemm.ee has very little active communities that do not exist on hexbear.

Resulting in lemm.ee benefit of federation being votes and views, with a secondary benefit of comments.

However, as expressed by users belonging to marginalized groups, comments from .ee users are often lib-shit and in some cases outright hostile. While many on hexbear love dunking on these lost libs the duty to protect marginalized users is much more important.

The end vote for programming.dev and aussie.zone was a tie, so we decided to break the tie in favor of defederation. The decision on lemm.ee was much harder as the average user did express desire to remain federated however the admin team decided that a temporary removal from our allow-list was the best option.

As an admin team we have never wanted to prioritize growth, and we wanted to give federation with liberal instances a try, however we consider providing a safer browsing experience for marginalized users more important than the opportunity to dunk.

While user side instance blocking and local sort are options, neither address the issue of federated instance users coming into posts in hexbear communities to make reactionary comments.

Thank you everyone who gave input and please provide any feedback, comments, concerns, etc in comments.

final vote count:

federation

all 32

aussie.zone 27

lemm.ee 41

programming.dev 27

lemmy.blahaj.zone 5

defederation

all 40

aussie.zone 19

lemm.ee 4

programming.dev 19

lemmy.blahaj.zone 43

250 comments
  • Disappointing. I'd hoped the community here would not pointlessly isolate itself but that appears to be what it wants to do.

    Gonna have to

    and use something that's not defederated from everywhere.

    • I also find the reasoning a bit flawed. We need user turnover and influx, not for growth, but in order to keep a stable environment. Without it, hexbear just becomes the same 20 bitter people arguing with each other ready to eviscerate each other over minor disagreements in the next pointless "struggle session". As what happened for years before federation. Federation has improved the signal to noise ratio in some ways.

      Also with per instance and per community blocking in the latest versions of lemmy, I wonder how necessary this all this. Will users still see federated comments in hexbear posts, if they have blocked the instance?

      • Yeah, pre-federation Hexbear was noticeably worse compared to now. I really don't understand what people see in pre-federation Hexbear. I guess it was less openly bigoted, but seeing all those bullshit struggle sessions and people who you regard as your acquaintances arguing over the stupidest shit isn't exactly great for your mental health either.

        Federation Hexbear was truly something else, and as we're heading towards post-federation Hexbear, I can't say I'm looking forward to it.

    • pointlessly isolate

      however we consider providing a safer browsing experience for marginalized users more important than the opportunity to dunk.

      • As far as I'm concerned that's what moderation is adequate for, not the defed button. Without isolating itself Hexbear was already one of the best spaces online for marginalised people, particularly lgbt, period, I can't think of something comparatively better. Compromising the ability to spread leftist ideas to others in order to go above and beyond already being the best just isn't necessary, it's actively detrimental even.

    • Let me know what you find, a community with consistent negative growth and no path to positive growth isn't going to last forever, so it would be good to know where others end up as the slow and steady drip of users out of Hexbear continues.

      • There's always Lemmygrad of course, though it's not a leftist-unity platform and the general vibe is very different (more serious ig?)

        But man we should at least stay federated with lemm.ee, that instance's admin has been very reasonable and it hasn't caused much trouble at all; nothing that banning any troublemakers can't fix.

    • Were you leaning towards just plain lemmy.ml for your account instance or somewhere else? Only reason I don't say lemmygrad is for wider leftist appeal (nothing against Lemmygrad y'all are great)

      • Lemmy.ml or lemm.ee, maybe? The latter due to reliability of lemmy.ml being low and my private chats with the owner way back being pretty okay compared to most libs. Or just creating the one I've had in my head for years. I don't dislike the grad folks either but just prefer a space that isn't sectarian. It will probably take me a week to make my mind up tbh.

  • Disappointed with decision to defederate from lemme.ee. Obviously the userbase broadly didn't want to and I felt we had been in a very good balance with them for a long time. It's really not about dunking, it's just about a broader pool of users and communities to interact with.

  • This is almost definitely good for the short term health of Hexbear but almost definitely bad for the long term health of Hexbear. The only way to remove all possibility of someone stumbling onto a reactionary post is to disallow posting. This feels a step too far honestly.

  • I'd say that removing lemm.ee is bad for the site because it makes us so much more insular when we lose the possibility of gaining users from a large generalist instance, and we have a tendency to not effortpost or actually read sources as much when there doesn't a exist a population of clueless wandering libs to explain stuff too, but honestly it doesn't matter.

    There's been a few times over the past month or two where I hadn't seen lemm.ee posters in so long that I thought we already defedded them. So many of them have been banned that remaining federated with them no longer really makes sense, there's a fundamental incompatibility. My thinking was that it might be worth it to give them a little leeway if their admin would promise to enforce some of our rules against obvious reactionaries on their own site, but I doubt they would even if asked, and in that case we can't really revisit this until everyone on Hexbear has the ability to choose whether or not to see these people.

  • Probably shouldn't hold votes if you're not gonna honor them. It gives people an illusion of choice.

    Maybe just do a sentiment-gathering post instead, since that's how you actually used the info.

  • I spend almost all of my time in the Mega Mega, the News Mega, reading Tervell's Gunposts, owlposting, or making horrific memes, and I routinely forget that we're even federated with anyone, and go days or weeks at a time without seeing anyone except hexbears and lemmgrads and .mls

    For most of our federation experiment federation has had no meaningful effect on my hexbearing experience, and it certainly hasn't had a positive experience. Even the dunking got boring only a week in to federation and I was one of the people gnashing my teeth at the promise of blood.

    I didn't notice .ee was here and won't notice that it is gone.

  • Three people hold a vote on which restaurant they will all eat at. Person one and two ever so slightly prefer thai, person three is deathly allergic to peanuts and shellfish and can't safely eat thai. The median vote is upheld and democracy prevails! Person three awkwardly goes home wondering what the fuck is wrong with their "friends"

    Not saying for certain that this is the landscape but you cannot deny that it looks that it might be considering the evidence presented. Please consider the limitations of simple democracy, and the very open humble dialogue Carcosa is having with you before you start complaining without substance.

    • There is a question on the substance though, I'll paste what I put further down the thread:

      I've scoured the modlogs, I see a grand total of 1 account from .ee banned for transphobia in the past 2 months. And 1 temp ban from traa due to a cryptic emoji-laden comment, over the same period. Are there accounts doing transphobic harassment and going un-banned by our mods, or is this just not a real problem of any reasonable scale? Or is 1 straggler every couple months simply untenable and too many? Because we see more wrecker accounts simply made directly here on-site than that by a long shot but we aren't shutting off registrations...

      If this were a common issue I'd say yeah, the harm outweighs any possible benefit, but looking at the modlog that's not the picture I get

      • I'm cis so I'm going to leave that discussion to other comrades. This has substance and isn't the sort of comment I was referring to. This was directed at the sort of comment which implies that the decision was arbitrary when the reasoning was clearly stated.

      • Just a day before the vote, an .ee user got banned from one of our trans boards for a lenghty post where he boiled down a thoughtful, complex article about a trans masc person's difficult relation to masculinity to literally saying "not all men" and argued that feminists should stfu about pointing out male privilege. I can't say he was being outright transphobic, i reported him for his sexism apologia and that's what he got banned for, but it still hurts to see discussions in trans spaces being taken over by antifeminist dweebs who completely ignore anything trans related about the discussion and use it as a jumping off point for spreading mysogyny.

        A day before that, we had another ban of an .ee user for a completely unhinged slava ukraini diatribe about hexbear doing Russian "ampliganda". Apparently this ampliganda thing is "propaganda" were you say things that are actually 100% true and correct, but you say them so often and so loudly that they disturb the state department narrative. This kind of western chauvinist redditor shit has always been extremely common with .ee, it's a large part of why the list of banned users from that instance is so long and we barely see engagement with them nowadays. Now you might say "see, we barely see engagement!", but that would be missing the point that engagement is so low because the site has such a widespread problem with violating our code of conduct.

        I understand the decision to refed once we have local only comms, i get that my hardline "defed everybody" stance is not a position i can enforce here, and i think it's a viable compromise to redesign the community so we can maintain both outreach, dunking and safer spaces at the same time, but for now, i prioritize the safety of women and queers and the safety of my comrades affected by western imperialism and national chauvinism over dubious promises of short-term growth, and i'm glad moderators agree with that approach.

    • Three people hold a vote on which restaurant they will all eat at. Person one and two ever so slightly prefer thai, person three is deathly allergic to peanuts and shellfish and can't safely eat thai. The median vote is upheld and democracy prevails! Person three awkwardly goes home wondering what the fuck is wrong with their "friends"

      Except we have cases of multiple people thinking about either quitting or cutting down time spend on this site because of this decision, so your analogy doesn't hold. This is more like person one having a strong preference for Thai, person two having a weak preference for Thai, and person three being deadly allergic to peanuts. Person two doesn't matter, so it's a question of whether you want to keep person one or person three with one person lukewarmly supporting person one. It makes the most sense to go to the Thai restaurant while giving person three a head's up that person one and person two are going to the Thai restaurant.

      Like I said in a previous comment, if the admins had another thread asking whether Hexbear should defed from lemmee, I bet a supermajority would want continued federation. If the pro-federation crowd truly didn't have a preference, this 200+ comment thread wouldn't have blown up, now would it?

  • I don't know what any of this means because I'm a dumb old person. I just migrated here when they banned the subreddit and want to stay with my comrades.

    • Hexbear is a lemmy fork which is a reddit like clone. There are other communities like this, each with their own subreddit stuff. Because of similar architecture communities who are allowed can cross post to other communities. You will see them by usernames with @ blah.blah in them.

      Some of those entire communities have been filled with

      , but others and their admin have been proven full of
      or
      and not generally conducive to a friendly relationship.

    • How I'd describe the situation:

      At the highest level there's the Fediverse, which is essentially a recreation of how the internet was before Facebook and Twitter and others came along. It is fundamentally decentralized and so it is much harder for any single corporation to take control of - though these corporations and the feds will probably try and invent new methods to govern as much of it as possible. What that means in practice for us is that Hexbear cannot be banned like the subreddit was, because there's no central authority to do the banning. This goes for every other place too, like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad and so on. There are subsections of the Fediverse which, at least to me, seem to be approximating their non-Fediverse counterparts - so Mastodon is "Twitter in the Fediverse"; the Lemmyverse is "Reddit in the Fediverse", and so on.

      So unlike on Reddit, where all the subreddits were forced to interact due to the nature of Reddit being Reddit, on the Lemmyverse we can instead choose whether our "subreddit" (called "instances" now) can be readily accessible from the other "subreddits" (instances). Making another instance accessible is called "federation", and making an instance non-accessible is called "defederation". Your immediate thought will probably be "Wait, but how does each lemmy instance decide this?" And this is the problem that us and other instances are trying to solve to each of our satisfaction. There's the two endpoints on the graph of either a) federate with literally everybody - if they don't want to see our posts or for us to be able to see their posts, then that's their problem and they can defederate from us; or b) federate with literally nobody and become an isolated island that merely benefits from the Lemmyverse devs' work, creating features for every instance.

      Most instances will fall somewhere in the middle of those two camps, finding some instances to be in line with their beliefs to a large extent (like Hexbear and Lemmygrad), with others perhaps being less compatible, and so on all the way to actual neo-Nazi instances, which we all agree we shouldn't federate with. All of these discussions we've had about federation and defederation over the last year have basically been us, as a community, trying to answer the question "Where do we draw the line of acceptability?" Naturally, the community here has a wide range of opinions. I would say that there's two major camps on Hexbear:

      1. We should only federate with instances that share our views to a large extent, are explicitly LGBTQIA+ friendly, and various other requirements depending on the user. This is to ensure safety for marginalized comrades here, which is more important than growth for growth's sake. Marginalized comrades will be attracted here by our views and inclusivity and the safety that we offer.
      2. We should federate with a broader range of instances that may or may not share our views and may not be LGBTQIA+ friendly. This is for the purpose of spreading propaganda towards their users, and will mean that we can more actively attract comrades by physically showing up in lib spaces that they may spend their time because they simply aren't aware that any leftist spaces for marginalized groups exist. Additionally, by spreading propaganda, we can convert some liberals to our side - the chapotraphouse subreddit was a great example of how this could work, and many of us (including myself) became communists because we were dunked on or were curious about those "insane genocide-denying woke Stalinists" that the libs fearmongered about.

      Like many debates, the two sides end up talking past each other a lot rather than addressing each others' points directly. We don't really have data on the demographics of each side so I won't speculate much, but it stands to reason that marginalized people here are more likely to support 1). That being said, there are notable trans users here who are pro-federation, so the debate cannot be boiled down to purely "Marginalized users, who are a minority, want X, while non-marginalized users, who are a majority, want not-X. What do we do?"

      In this very thread, you have examples of how people are being affected by this decision. There are some who are saying that if we're just going to increasingly isolate ourselves then there's no point being here if you wanna create more comrades by spreading propaganda, and so plan on leaving or at least spending a lot less time here. There are others who are saying that because there is a significant chunk of the userbase wants to remain federated with liberal instances, this indicates that there is a lack of concern towards the safety of marginalized people here and so plan on leaving or at least spending a lot less time here.

      At the end of the day, I have to say that I side with 1) but support the use of local-only communities in the future and greater ability by users to select what they do and do not want to see. I also think that there are many, many more places on the internet to dunk on and spread propaganda to libs than there are places which are truly safe for marginalized comrades. But I do also share the concerns about long-term growth and user retention, and so I hope we can find some way of bringing more people here than is independent of who we're federated with - I know that our trans comrades are trying to bring over trans users on reddit, for example. Growth for growth's sake should not be pursued - if anything, it should be actively fought against - but growth that brings in comrades despite it being slower growth should be encouraged as much as possible. Quality and quantity is largely a false dichotomy imo, but if we have to choose one or the other, we should focus on quality and not quantity.

  • It's been wild to me learning that so many people out on the internet are so incompatible with us. I knew we were kinda weird, but it's like there's no ability to relate to one another at all. The liberals and reactionaries are so far gone that any conversation to them seems like harassment. But then they harass our trans/gay/poc comrades without even trying, they just have bigotry flowing out of them.

    They have such weird cultures online. They can't handle a paragraph of text, they think it's brigading or whatever. I want to interact with people from all over the Internet but my goodness I can't handle some of these folks

  • A note for whatever it's worth: I don't think its at all fair to say that the pro-federation votes are just "people who want their dunking treats" or any variation on that. Some people were making that argument 6 months ago, they are not now. The primary arguments I see are:

    • keeping our userbase flat or growing, rather than on a slow decline
    • Introducing normies to our ideas via exposing them to the site, our culture and our community. organic exposure is a lot more convincing (IMO) than propagandizing directly at people, it gives them a better idea of what we're about.

    losing .ee isn't a catastrophe, we will be fine and so will they, but I think it puts us on a worse, more isolated trajectory as a site.

    • ntroducing normies to our ideas via exposing them to the site, our culture and our community. organic exposure is a lot more convincing (IMO) than propagandizing directly at people, it gives them a better idea of what we're about.

      It isn’t reliable to count on people to stick to this when a lot of people from here were just for it because they were eager for a fight, but these types won’t admit this much. IIRC, the first week of federation was a shit show which involved many instances defeding from us right from the start, not saying it wasn’t necessary considering a load of instances were toxic and fascist anyway, dunking was good in some of these cases as well but that’s all it was, it’s essentially sport hidden behind the premise of “we just want people to become move left 🤓.”

      If you want this to be the goal, you need to organize. People on hexbear don’t know what that is because they post online to a niche forum. This is why I think all of this online stuff isn’t important. People can keep telling themselves they’re helping and for what it’s worth maybe they are… but the delusion that federating would be the thing to push people further left was always and always is going to be a pipe dream.

      Shitpost online but if you really care about it organize irl, you can have an influence over people online somewhat but at the end of the day we’re all screens.

  • i love forum warring dunking, all of that, but i don't see how anyone here could seriously oppose this decision. like, all the great things about this site are due to the community of active users, not because of driveby freakazoid fascists sharing their vile thoughts. They've got the rest of the internet, and we've got Hexbear. Lucky for us.

  • We took the weekend to properly consider and are removing: programming.dev , aussie.zone , and lemm.ee from our allow-list.

    lemmee 73 federation vs lemmee 44 defederation

    This is a crock of shit. We have a clear majority, and not only a majority, but a near supermajority at that. This isn't a "the Hexbear community is undecided over whether to federate with lemmee" or "federation with lemmee has proven to be controversial." We have a clear preference for federation and our clear preference ought to be honored.

    I bet you if you have another stickied thread with the simple title "Should Hexbear defederate from Lemmee," federation would not only win the majority, but win a supermajority as well.

    • I feel like you're intentionally missing the point. Democracies have the innate flaw of the majority winning out, even at the detriment of the marginalized. Voting didn't end Jim Crowe, it didn't end slavery, it didn't legalize gay marriage. The US isn't a democracy, but if we're communists and seeking a better world, the idea that a majority rules democracy is a bit silly when marginalized groups with legitimate concerns will just be ignored for the majority's will. I imagine most people when polled wouldn't give a shit if a pipeline was built through indigenous land, but the indigenous population living there and that will be impacted by it the most has a lot more to lose, but the majority otherwise wouldn't care. In comparison a quick vibes based polling of a website is insignificant, but the same principles are in play.

      • I think these comparisons are a bit extreme for what’s happening here honestly

      • marginalized groups with legitimate concerns

        It's not that legitimate concerns haven't been raised, but more about whether those legitimate concerns are prominent enough that you could elevate them from particular individuals to a group. And it's definitely not groups. It's a particular group, in particular trans femmes and enbies who have issues with getting transphobic DMs from transphobic assholes. This is what is at stack. Federation with lemmee certainly didn't make things worse for the few POCs here mostly because Hexbear is already like 90% white anyways. You can't pin the multiple embarrassing 200+ comment threads made by the white guilt mayo users here on Lemmitors.

        So, now that we narrow down the particular marginalized group to trans femmes and enbies, then the question becomes do trans femmes and enbies as a collective group rather than particular individuals face legitimate concerns? I don't think the question is as straightforward as the pro-defed crowd claim it is. For one, I see no meaningful discussion about a crisis of transphobic lemmee users on /c/anti_cishet_aktion, /c/transenby_liberation, or /c/traa. Prominent trans users like Awoo and kristina are pro-federation. Speaking of kristina, she not only wanted to continue federation with lemmee, but she even wanted to refed with blahaj, no doubt to save whatever is left of that instance's trans users from /c/196 chasers. And she isn't lax with transphobic bullshit either since she herself was the main person pushing for defederation with programmingdev, which I agree with. It doesn't make me "intentionally missing the point" if I say that the majority vote should be honored and that I trust the judgment of esteemed trans users over some other trans users.

      • Wait I thought defederating meant we don't have toxic posts like this anymore? Guess we didn't defederate hard enough, we should defederate more.

  • People are being a little dramatic, while the communication about it being a survey rather than a vote could have been clearer, decisions like this should never be done by user vote. Some of the arguments for defederation seemed a little extra in my opinion, but if the admins have gauged that people are more passionate about defederating compared to federating then I would trust their judgment.

    We should probably come up with a better way of reaching a consensus in the future.

  • just gonna say i appreciate you defederating. real life is full of scary and intense situations for me so it's nice to feel like this place is a comfort and not another battleground. i realize the irony of saying that in the thread where everyone is yelling at you but it's true

  • Feels weird to me that the benefits of being federated anywhere are mostly being described as 'having people to dunk on' or to convert. As if other places can't possibly have good posts or anything worthwhile to say, they're only useful to us as a torment toy or if we can make them into something good. It's kinda gross that that's the only way people feel comfortable talking about it.

  • I've been thinking things over for a bit, reading other responses in this thread, and I decided I want say a bit about why I was generally pro-federation, and kind of push back against the idea that this choice is just people who want to dunk liberals over protecting others in the community. Before I get going though, I want to be clear that I'm not mad at the admin team or anything, and I do know that my experience doesn't match everyone's on here.

    For me, this starts with source of Hexbear, the old subreddit. /r/Chapo was formed in the cesspool of reddit, surrounded by communities and posters that would earn a defed in the current setup. Yet despite that, it became one of the most accepting and validating places on the site, growing like a weed despite greater Reddit's institutional hatred for it. Simply put, the things we talk about connect to people, in a real way. For every chud and wrecker that came in to start shit, so many more users learned, changed, and came out the better from the community, and to be honest, I was one of those people. Chapo gave me a safe and supportive place to be trans in, one without judgement, and also educated me about why the world around us was so shit, and about why society treated people like me the way they do. I don't know what my politics would be like today without the bogeyman of Reddit pushing me along, but it's safe to say they probably would be worse.

    Today, with Hexbear, I don't want that kind of opportunity and community to go away for the rest of Lemmy. While we do need a safe and supportive space for marginalized groups, we can't accomplish that by pursuing complete isolation. We need to of course defed instances that, as a community, lean chud, but we can't shut out the general population because of a few shitty posts. All that does is deprive others who could benefit from this community, who deserve their chance to join, learn from, and share in what we've built. As long as we have a strong and responsive moderation team, the occasional poster acting in bad faith or hatred can be dealt with.

  • I really wanted to reply to let you know that I support what you all are doing on the admin side. Decisions like these have to be weighed and there are going to be trade-offs no matter what.

  • honestly i still don't understand why being federated (and federated with specific instances) is such a big deal for people. if you want to use another instance, just make an account for it?? dedicated lemmy apps will make that even easier with 1 tap profile switching. i don't think federation is even that bad, hell i exclusively use local comms so it doesn't really affect me that much, i just don't see the upside justifying it

    • Same

      If you're looking for an app recommendation, I really like Connect; intuitive UI, very customizable, and the dev is very active and responsive to requests.

      Huge caveat - none of the apps let you use the Hexbear emoji-picker, though - you have to know the code for the emoji you want to use

    • if you want to use another instance, just make an account for it??

      Because then you're all alone out there with thousands of lemmy.world pieces of shit and none of your comrades.

  • Ive i where a Fed . i would make an account on Hexbear to start Drama like this to islolate it and therefore Neutrilse it..

    "I read XXX on Lemmy fuckboy why would i ever even go there "

    "DEFEDERATE NOW HEXBEAR !"

    you have a local button just use it .. make a "localbutton" PSA

    • I've been browsing local only for months on my old account, it was one of the first things i changed in the settings when i made a new one and i'm still glad we defedded from these instances. What positive did they add to this site? Those among them who can be won to our cause either have already made accounts here or will do so after defederation, that's a bigger benefit to us than staying federated with them.

      I get that some of you love to dunk on these shits, but we have an entire comm dedicated to dunking on people, if you have that kind of energy it's much better to use it for brigades and other targeted measures that actually reach a sizeable number of people because they happen off-site on larger platforms than to let it out on some manosphere turd shitting up a thread on one of our queer comms that made it to lemm.ees or programmingdevs frontpage.

      • The benefit was that there was a decent amount of relatively normal, non-ideological people getting exposed to new thoughts and ideas, and introducing them to better ways of approaching the world. Not every person we federated with is a chud coming here to attack or be dunked respectively. A lot of them are just regular ass people on the internet, which can lead to healthy participation and growth with Hexbear over time.

  • Just want to pop in and say I support the admin team's decision, while I've not had to deal with .ee users harassing me often times coming in late enough to see the aftermath of the mods, I'm appreciative that care was given to consider marginalized users rather than simply a popularity contest.

  • AUTHORITARIANISM! I KNEW IT!

    As soon as the weather warmed up—which is happening early thanks to global warming!—the tankies were bound to come out.

    You're trying to get me to touch grass but I will never touch grass I have hay fever and I am a knight in the posting army and—

  • Thank you. Dunking on lost libs is fun sometimes but it's also exhausting to keep running into liberal fascists who don't even know they're fascists spouting white supremacist genocidal rhetoric. I already have to deal with white supremacist genocide-lovers everywhere else, and it'd be nice for Hexbear to stay a safe space. I actually ditched my Lemmy.ml account entirely because they let in too many liberals (fascists).

250 comments