5d ago

on the male loneliness epidemic

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In so many words, this is just another "you're lonely because you're a bad person" misandrist jerk.
- It's not that bad.
- The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed, people being unable to find sexual companionship because people of their desired sex don’t want to be around them due to their personal choices is something that can be made fun of.
  Many women want a guy who is pro choice, can cook, is able to hold a conversation that’s not about sex, is capable of having platonic female friends, has hobbies, and has decent hygiene.
  If that is not something you can attain, that’s fine and there are still women out there for you but that eliminates a large percentage so if you want to be picky on top of that you are going to have a problem
  
  The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed, people being unable to find sexual companionship because people of their desired sex don’t want to be around them due to their personal choices is something that can be made fun of.
  But conflating those two categories of men as if all lonely men are the latter, does no good to anyone, and only helps fuel misandric stereotypes.
  
  The conflation is the problem but in my experience it is more people who are blaming the former when it is clearly the latter
  Like if you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice and also complain you can’t find a nice women to settle down that is a skill issue
  
  if you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice and also complain you can’t find a nice women to settle down
  That's an absurd stereotype that obviously doesn't apply to the vast majority of lonely men, though.
  Maybe the skill issue is in not realizing that.
  P.S. Also, there are plenty of married couples who are both MAGA, and I myself had no shortage of single MAGA women popping up on dating apps when I was single who made it crystal clear they weren't interested in anyone who wasn't also MAGA, also anti-vax, etc.
  P.P.S. 'Your body my choice' was a meme for like three weeks.
  
  So tell me this then: When people hear that a man hasn't dated, why is the first thing that comes to your mind the assumption that "you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice"? Is that the only explanation? Is there no nuance in the world? If a man has never dated, is he automatically MAGA and anti-abortion?
  
  It’s not the first thought, however when a person blames society for all their problems instead of making an effort to improve themselves that screams maga
  Plenty of people struggle to date for a variety of reasons but the people out there calling not get laid the “male loneliness epidemic” are generally not the most normal people
  
  What about all the MAGA who got women? What did they do right?
  
  Pro choice, sympathetic to womens issues, good cook, able to converse about many topics, platonic female friends, hobbies, good hygiene, >6ft tall, healthy weight, reasonably attractive, good degree and then job.
  That is/was me and I'm happily married, but it took 7 years of putting a lot of effort into dating before I met her, and I was not picky about who I dated.
  The idea that men can easily find a partner by meeting a few basic requirements is divisive tribalist nonsense.
  
  It’s not that they can easily find a partner if they meet a few requirements it’s that lacking those requirements makes dating much harder and if you are struggling to get a girlfriend and when trying to think of reasons why it’s been hard and all you think to do is blame society instead of focusing on self improvement that’s a problem
  Anecdotal evidence counts for shit but I’ll give it anyway of my friends/coworkers who complain “I can never find a good woman” about 3/4 have no hobbies where they ever interact with women and the last 1/4 fit the “I can’t have a normal conversation with a woman without trying to sleep with her”
  Society itself does suck and it has made in person hobbies much less common with the death of the third space, isolating people through technology, and just how much it cost to live but I have never met a person who is even moderately social that has a hobby where they interact with people of the opposite sex, and has platonic female friends that couldn’t get a date in less than a year if they were actively searching.
  Introverts need love too but if they look at their list of problems and rank “society hates men” above “I never see women in a social setting” that alone is their biggest problem
  
  Nobody here is arguing that Trump supporters or stinky men who only care about women for sex deserve to have partners.
  It's just that you and the OP don't acknowledge that finding a partner is hard for a lot of men who aren't jerks and have a reasonable amount going for them and the implication is that it's own fault and they must be a dick.
  If you flip the genders and make a statement like: "if a woman can't find a decent man it must be their own fault. It's easy, just go and take up some male dominated hobbies and take a shower." Its an asshole thing to say, no?
  So how about we try not to be assholes and have some empathy.
  
  I have acknowledged it multiple times
  
  I've looked and I don't really see that you have. You seem pretty dismissive of the fact that this group actually exists and quick to jump to attacking maga cultists and gross men who disrespect women - who nobody here is sticking up for.
  
  Did you look two comments up when I said
  “ The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed”
  
  Yes. There you're addressing friendship and in the rest of the comment you imply that its easy to find a partner by meeting a very low bar.
  
  “ It’s not that they can easily find a partner if they meet a few requirements it’s that lacking those requirements makes dating much harder ”
  
  The problem with "just get hobbies to meet women" is it's glaringly obvious when people are there to do that. You can't force yourself to enjoy an activity; you'll naturally do what you want, which is approach women.
  I have never met a person who is even moderately social that has a hobby where they interact with people of the opposite sex, and has platonic female friends...
  Kind of a pointless truism. Dating is a numbers game, more encounters is more success. You even admit it could take this prospect up to a year of effort, now imagine that you have to build that opportunity network from scratch.
  
  It is a pointless truism, and it is a numbers game which is why it’s so shocking people don’t see that!
  So if one persons spends 1 hour a week with eligible women and the other person spends 10 hours a week with eligible women the second person is statistically much more likely to find a partner.
  And if you spend only 1 hour a week with eligible women and instead of increasing that time you just decide to blame society that’s a you problem
  There is also a difference between pretending to be interested in something to get laid and trying to find ways to do things you find interesting with other people
  
  The time and energy investment to get those hours is not linear. Going from 0 hours to 1 hour is (by definition) a massive change. You're describing the solution as if there's an accessible way to make meaningful connections in the digital era. If it were as simple as described, we wouldn't have this societal problem because humans really don't like being lonely.
  ...a difference between pretending to be interested in something to get laid and trying to find ways to do things you find interesting with other people
  What's the difference? Your advice never said the hobby needs to interest you. This whole conversation is about finding companionship and intimacy, not group hobbies.
  Also, all of this argument puts aside that diving into new group activities is time and resource intensive. Having the time, flexibility and money to switch between them just to meet a few new people is an incredible privilege. It also inherently assumes you have access to these groups. Guess if you live in a social desert or don't have reliable transportation you're SOL and a loser for life?
  
  You mention this as being because of the digital era but what about that is any different than 25 years ago? If you don’t have time to spend a few hours a week pursing a hobby how are you going to have time to be in a relationship? The cost of pursing hobbies is a real concern for lower income people but how has that changed? How were you supposed to date a person if you lived in a social desert with no reliable transportation before?
  Maybe I haven’t been clear with what I am saying because you are grossly misunderstanding my point.
  I am saying when you have a problem you should try and improve yourself to address the problem vs blame society. For example if you can’t figure out how to program in python: you could read about it, watch educational videos, or take a course. Going onto a message board and complaining that python is impossible and stating we are in a programmer epidemic while not trying to learn it first is bad. We can make the acknowledgement that python can be hard for some people to learn but calling it impossible to learn without having put in the effort is useless
  
  when you have a problem you should try and improve yourself to address the problem vs blame society
  Right, so just a "bootstrap yourself" argument rather than looking at the flaws in our society.
  what about that is any different than 25 years ago
  You tell me, because there's clearly a problem! Your answer is that millions of people collectively decided to become unwashed, lonely losers overnight? That none of them have even attempted of joining a baking class or meeting people at the park?
  
  Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is something that’s literally impossible to do. Telling a person that if they are struggling to meet women the first thing they should do is hang out in settings where women exist is literally just common sense, you even said it’s a pointless truism because of how obvious it is. Yet somehow many people are complaining about not meeting people and me saying you should hang out women is controversial…
  I am saying there isn’t a widespread problem and isn’t causing it the “male loneliness epidemic” really cementing the lack of problem as if it was wide widespread and considering the majority of men are straight that women would also be affected?
  I am once again saying the same thing I have been saying there is a growing group of people who are just complaining about a problem without taking steps to fix it and the rise of online message boards and engagement algorithms has created echo chambers that people get stuck in and a person should take the “obvious” steps to self improvement before writing off all their problems as “society”
  
  I don't know what to say because you're just talking past any logical argument....
  "We can't meet potential partners"
  "JUST MEET WOMEM"
  I am saying there isn’t a widespread problem
  Uhhhh.... OK? You can say that but it doesn't make it true, all trends are pointing away from serious romantic experiences. Nearly 80% of baby boomers experienced a romantic relationships in their teenage years compared to 56% of Gen Z adults. In 2021, 54% of people ages 18-34 reported not having a steady partner compared to 33% in 2004.
  women would also be affected
  They are? Women and men report dating is harder than it was before. Less singles overall are dating. Women have more fear for their physical/emotional saftey in the modern pseudo-anonymous dating pool.
  A big reason it's framed as a male loneliness problem is the significant skew for women to be in committed relationships with older men, leaving younger men with an even larger singles cohort (32% of single women are ages 18-29 vs 51% of single men).
  It's not that hard to do the research and have an informed opinion. Just writing everything off as an echo chamber effect doesn't work when there's measurable events in the real world. Unless you have actual evidence that it's a problem with their collective dating efforts then there's no argument to be made. It's not even based on anecdotal evidence, you're just saying you think all these commenters haven't tried your advice.
  
  You think about this a lot, I respect that.
  
  Alright, anedotical evidence time! I am aware I am in a bit of a bubble, as I try to avoid the local variant of maga as much as possible in my life.
  But I know several single male friends who I would say are at least of average attractiveness, smart, funny, know how to use a shower and a toothbrush, have decent education/money, cool hobbies and are politically progressive. Also I know of at least three of them who are deeply unhappy about not getting into a meaningful relationship.
  Sometimes people are just stuck in a life situation or a place with not many compatible options and ways to meet people.
  
  How do you define “cool hobbies”
  
  Skinning hookers in their basements, plotting the violent takeover of the government, woodworking, climbing, just the usual boy stuff, you know?
  Jokes aside, "things that a large percentage of the population looks at and says, hey, that is a cool hobby". How is that for a definition?
  
  Woodworking is a fun thing to do and a great conversation starter but also commonly done at home or at a shared work area that is all male
  Rock climbing and plotting the violent takeover of the government has worked well for me however
  
  Many women want a guy who is pro choice, can cook, is able to hold a conversation that’s not about sex, is capable of having platonic female friends, has hobbies, and has decent hygiene.
  As someone who is literally all of these, it's still a nightmare to find a romantic partner. Personallt, I've given up on going out of my way to find someone, because every time I put myself out there I either get ignored or ghosted
  
  Damn, the platonic female friends part really got me. Reality is sad.
- If it's misandrist to tell the Trump voters who modeled their personalities on empty victory declaration and hurting brown people, then I'm a proud misandrist. Men who suck don't deserve to get laid. No one deserves sex.
  
  Is it possible to have a discussion without some queball trying to make it about Trump?
  
  a discussion about masculinity in the present political era with toxic online personalities and toxic politics and you're upset that Trump gets mentioned? That's a 'you' problem.
  
  We are on @lemmy.world, it is allowed to not be American.
  
  the Trump voters who modeled their personalities on empty victory declaration and hurting brown people
  ???
  Are you assuming lonely men all fit the above description? If so, that's idiotic.
  If not, then I don't know what the fuck you're on about, lol.
  
  I think a lot of lonely men do fit that description; studies show that political division is affecting dating. It's not that complicated.
  
  Stereotyping and generalizing is uncomplicated by nature, yes. That's the whole point, after all—to prejudge so that you can 'spare' your mind the effort of considering individual situations and circumstances.
  
  Mass individual situations are contemplated through generalizations. I'm not interested in every snowflake.
  
  You tell them.
  
  You're very much part of the problem. Reddit would be a much better fit for you.
  
  Why do you believe that lonely men must suck? Like, do you think men who would be decent partners just immediately find success and leave the dating pool, never to vent their frustration with modern dating culture?
  
  Studies show that political division is affecting dating.
  The political environment involves a lot of broken weak men who learned broken weak masculinity and that's affecting dating.
  
  Not all lonely men are Trump supporters
  
  All Trump supporters who are lonely have some work to do and don't really deserve sympathy.
  
  Indeed, but my heart is going out to the ones who aren't Trump supporters
  
  You... do realize there are lonely men in other countries, right? Like, the US is not the only place on Earth? Ah yes, the infamous Trump voters from checks notes ... Norway, Egypt, Japan, etc.
  And if you're gonna say "Well they're not voting for Trump but some other Trump-like politician", don't bother. You can't generalize every man, half the world population, just because you know men who voted Trump/Trump equivalents. Because if that'd be how it works, I could just as easily find you a woman that voted Trump and then point out how, supposedly, women suck cause they vote Trump based on this "evidence".
  
  .world ass take
  
  Frankly my positioning on men and feminism is also received negatively on lemmy world. Everyone's all about extending compassion and sympathy to men as subjects in an attempt to control them. Someone suggested we 'redefine strength.' To me strength cannot be redefined: you can only accept that many men are lonely because of their own choices and do, in fact, need to man up.
  
  It isn't easy, you know? It's whether you get it or you don't. Being fit and reliable is hard to some people.
  
  Thank you for perfectly demonstrating one aspect of the peoblem you claim to understand. Assuming all lonely men are conservative is not only wrong but fucking stupid and extremely judgemental. Thank you for proving that you do not understand this problem what so ever, so now you can be safely ignored for the rest of this conversation.
  
  Yeah. Politicians won't get nowhere telling the population about their next NO-BLUEBALLS Act.
  
  Drag's partner deserves sex. Lots of it. Until it can't think straight.
  
  Haven't seen you in awhile Drag, wonderful to run into you. First time on my new instance! (Had to switch form Lemm.ee)

594 comments