Ron DeSantis Proposes Unprovoked War on Mexico

Launching military ordnance into another country is the definition of war.

If it's to kill terrorists that are enemies of both the US and Mexican government, not really.
- Mexico isn't fucking inviting the US to do it. They want the US to fuck off.
  
  Still, misleading title, he's not proposing a war. Could it potentially lead to war? Yeah but it's very, very unlikely Mexico would actually declare war on America.
  
  What the fuck do you think putting your military into another country uninvited is? What the fuck are you doing quibbling over "potentially" a war or not? What you're essentially saying here is that you're ok with it as long if Mexico cowers and doesn't fight back.
  This is a disgusting level of nationalism. You're already making excuses for america.
  
  Typical hexbears to shove words down throats.
  I never said I wasn't against this, I'm merely saying the title should've been something like, "Ron DeSantis proposes uninvited drone strikes on Mexican cartel"
  
  "The American Supreme Court gives individual states the right to choose in reversal of Roe vs Wade"
  
  Obviously different and you know it.
  
  Is that not what the Supreme Court did?
  
  How dare you shove my words back into my mouth! I wasn't endorsing it! I was merely using Bush era talking points to obscure the reality of those actions and diminish their impact!
  
  Why should a title help obscure the reality of calling to commit acts of war against our neighbor
  
  The United States is not an arbiter of which Mexicans are to be extrajudicially executed by drone strikes. You're acting like a coward who's only too happy the Mexicans are too weak to strike back.
  
  Buddy all I'm saying is the title is misleading. I'm obviously against the US bombing Mexican cartels, I just don't think it's going to start a war.
  
  If you think the US would be disciplined about only attacking cartels after seeing the War on Terror, I have a bridge to sell you
  
  Yes, you know that the US can do almost anything it wants and that it won't trigger a war with Mexico. It can sanction thousands or millions to death by starvation and lack of medical supplies. It can bomb people. It can seize and occupy territory if it really wants to. Not because the US wouldn't be waging war then, but because the Mexicans and the rest of latin america are too weak to fight back. And in knowing this you can then claim that, actually, 'this is misleading 4/5 pinocchios Ron DeSantis only wants the right to do a little gunboat diplomacy with capital punishment characteristics and that's not really a war'.
  I'm sure that if China drone bombed someone in New York the Americans would be super chill about it.
  
  The US hasn't declared a war since WW2, they've still gone to war. Neither the US nor Libya declared war on each other but it still counts as a war when the US bombs the absolute shit out of a country.
  
  "War" implies the US and Mexico mutually fighting. Libya was military intervention not war.
  
  Libya was military intervention not war.
  
  A Special Military Operation, if you will.
  
  checkmate! it can’t be called a war if we simply lob misiles at a country and arm every lunatic we find, completely destroying it in the process
  
  Well yeah, you OBJECTIVELY can't call what happened in Libya a "war". It was bad and unnecessary, but by definition, not a war... You did not have US troops fighting Libyan troops.
  
  So because the US troops were using weapons the Libyan troops couldn't effectively fight back against, it doesn't count as a war?
  "It wasn't a battle, it was a just a massacre, so it's OK"
  
  You're fighting with the air. I very clearly said Libya wasn't ok.
  You're right, massacres aren't battles and we shouldn't call them that. Of course that doesn't make it any better but why call it a battle if it's not?
  
  Are us pilots not us troops?
  
  Of course, I forgot when you call it something other than war then it's not a war! That's why we have the Korean Police Action, the Vietnam Police Action, the Police Actions in Panama and Grenada, Desert Police Action 1 & 2 in Iraq, and the Global Police Action on Terror! None of those were wars, right?
  
  Oh my god dude. Come on.
- If it's to kill terrorists
  Where have I heard this one before?
- So you'd be okay with the Chinese dropping a bomb on a house in your neighbourhood because some right-wing nut was gonna blow up a government building?
  He's a terrorist, so it's all good right?
  
  I mean, I'm not going to shed any tears over a would-be Timothy McVeigh who probably fantasized about killing leftists like me.
  Now, if they start bombing weddings, then we've got a problem. And yeah, the US military did that.
  
  I'm not justifying it. I'm only saying the title is a bit misleading/sensationalist.
  
  It's really not. It's a definite act of war.
  
  At this point you really need to define what a "war" is because all you're doing is dancing around without having to actually stake any claim to an argument. Instead of getting indignant at people drawing conclusions from what you DO say, make the substance of your opinion known so it can be examined and criticized openly.
  Explain what the difference is between having your military attack another country and a "congress didn't say it's a war but it's really a war".
  
  At this point you really need to define what a “war” is
  "a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state"
  Key word, "between." You can't have a war if no one declares war.
  
  You can't have a war if no one declares war
  Are you just fucking with us now? Is this a bit?
  I've seen at least one other person gently remind you of the last 70 years of US history. Are you just being a troll at this point?
  I worded my question explicitly so as to make you think about this. Can you please try to?
  
  Two states fighting against each other for the other state’s territory or resources is not a war unless they declare war?
  
  Mexico wouldn't be fighting back in this case (which is obviously bad, I'm just speaking semantically).
  
  Right, but we’re just talking in the abstract. You have a definition of war, I’m asking if there is a conventional war, one state opposing another site, trying to gain the other’s resources or territory - you don’t consider this a war unless both countries explicitly declare war on the other?
  
  you don’t consider this a war unless both countries explicitly declare war on the other?
  An invasion sure, but not technically a war.
- I'm sure the regime who drone struck weddings, hospitals, and loves to double-tap to catch civilians coming to help victims in the aftermath can be trusted to only kill "terrorists" (don't ask what they define as a terrorist)
- Targeted drone strikes to kill terrorists have done wonders every other time we've done it, let's run it back!
- If it's to kill terrorists
  Imagine still buying this
- What if i say the us army are terrorists? Then sending ordinance into your country should be fine no. Since i said they are terrorists.
  
  I never said anything would be "fine" but tbh you're probably right, US military are terrorists.
  
  But it wouldnt be a war.
- Maybe you should worry more about your meth-addled midwest shithole than try to turn socal into a warzone? Jesus christ I wish we could drone strike whatever meth lab you're posting from.

Holy shit. How did people ever get it in their heads that drone strikes are not military incursions? Is it because there’s no humans physically entering the territory? Would you think the same thing if we were lobbing artillery shells over the border?

And how would doing either of those things without the cooperation of the Mexican government be anything other than an act of war?

I mean, I get that there is a difference between sending an armored column to occupy Juarez and a drone strike, and it’s not clear from the title which one we’re talking about, but you can’t really dispute that either of those things would be an act of war under any meaningful definition.

It’s an insane thing to say, regardless, because if you know anything about US Mexico relations you know he’s not talking about some kind of cooperative anti-cartel police action. He is in fact talking about an act of war. And a particularly stupid one at that.

"i hate X as much as the next guy but cmon"

literal reddit bot

I'd say YOU guys (Hexbears and Lemmygradians) are bots. In fact, I'm probably talking to one right now.
The pronoun tags give it away. They're completely random. My inbox as follows:
"none/use name" - "she/her" - "ze/hir" - "they/them" - "any" - "comrade/them" - "comrade/them" - "he/him"
Jfc did Russian propagandists just put the pronouns for these bots...on shuffle? I'm not saying all of you guys are bots but it seems like the majority. Lol I wonder if there's a script I can use to shut you down.
- being a bot is when you have pronouns and the more pronouns you have the more Russian you are
  
  I have "any". So do i have the most pronouns or the least?
  
  Yes
  
  Am superbot
  he/him er/ihm он/его él
  
  Nope, it would make sense if the pronoun tags were 90% he/him and she/her, but the extent of variation among the tags user choose is completely unrealistic and arbitrary that any community would have.
  Any tankie space would obviously be like 98% he/him neckbeards only.
  
  We're a radically pro-trans community. A purge of transphobes near the beginning was a formative moment for our community. We're radically welcoming of trans folks, so a lot of trans folks post here.
  Also trans folks are disproportionately leftist (for a good reason, liberation for trans folks cannot come through capitalism), the idea that "tankies" would be majority "he/him neckbeards" is silly, if not actually outright transphobic.
  
  trans folks are disproportionately leftist for a good reason
  I said "tankies," not leftists. I'm sure most trans people are democratic socialists, anarchists, or non-authoritarian communists. I have a hard time believing a lot of you guys aren't disinformation bots.
  
  The way "tankie" is used today it just means communist who has actually read communist theory and understands the nature of imperialism and applies it correctly to the current geopolitical situation in the world.
  Solipsism and paranoia win the day in your brain yet again. People can't possibly earnestly have these opinions, because I'm not used to them, must be bots. Doesnt matter that they have three years of post history where they talk about innocuous stuff that has nothing to do with Russia and china. Thats just part of the act. And the fact that you think the pronoun tags make it MORE likely that we're bots is even more laughable.
  Its really fucking depressing seeing how effective the "bot" propaganda has been.
  
  At this point I don't think you're a bot but it's pretty obvious many of you are. The fact any and every comment gets 10+ upvotes in 15 minutes is unnatural for a site like this. There should be some comments with under 5 upvotes but I NEVER see hexbear comments get under that.
  I have a hard time believing any community is that gender diverse.
  
  The fact any and every comment gets 10+ upvotes in 15 minutes is unnatural for a site like this. There should be some comments with under 5 upvotes but I NEVER see hexbear comments get under that.
  What can I say, we're a united front when it comes to arguing with liberals. Honestly, we didnt really see upvote totals as high as these before federation, which I think is a combination of the fact that we're, like I said, united in the face of these issues, and also the fact that some people in other instances agree with us. We care about each other and communist is a collectivist ideology. There's also a lot of us. And trust me, if you believe I"M not a bot then I can tell you that in the three years before federation noone here stuck me as not being a genuine human being. Other than the bit accounts and like the like, two actual bots we made for specific purposes.
  I have a hard time believing any community is that gender diverse.
  Damn, thats weird because every community I'm a part of is gender diverse. Even not explictly leftist ones, like I'm in a discord server for a streamer called Barry and like half the server is trans or nonbinary. I'm pretty used to interacting with trans and enby people in my life at this point. Have a fair few of them in my life offline as well. This seems like a you problem.
  
  also lmao at the upvote thing, you wish you had a community even remotely as close as ours
  
  We love our comrades don't we folks?
  
  You're talking about one of the oldest lemmy instances, the most active established instance, and the instance with highest per capita activity, at a time when activity has suddenly become higher than ever because suddenly there are a bunch of redditors saying awful shit all over our feeds and we can go dunk on them without needing to bother with accounts on different sites for the first time in over three years.
  You're also vastly overestimating what bots require and do: all we have to do is look at the largest and most sophisticated botnets - the CIA/State Department astroturfing botnets - to see how even the laziest and crudest copy/pasta spam is all it takes to completely dominate and drown out opposition. Literally no one needs to be sneaky, just yell the exact same verbatim press release quote over and over from ten thousand firstnamelastname12345 accounts with stock photo profile pics and you control the conversation completely and no one cares if you get caught out, like the CIA/State Department bots constantly do.
  You're also claiming that the instance was built up with chatbots more sophisticated than anything there is today - and all of those still-not-coherent most-sophisticated AIs are extremely expensive to run - starting at a time when the most advanced language generating AI was GPT-2, which was only a step or so above old markov chain babbling. You can literally go and look at the ancient post history yourself.
  
  I would believe you, but it's very possible you're a bot and everything you just said is an AI trained to say this in order to make people reduce their doubts about your user authenticity.
  
  More than half of our mods and admins are trans or enby and most of the rest are some other flavour of queer, about a quarter to a third or so of the user base is trans or enby iirc based on the poll we did on the demographics of the user base a year or so ago, I'm trans, the person you're speaking to is an enby I believe, about half of the people dunking on you are trans/enby and almost all are queer because hexbear is radically anti discrimination and routinely cyberbullies bigots
  We're literally the largest explicitly queer instance on Lemmy except blahaj.zone
  
  quite literally no. I'm a trans person and find hexbear to be one of the most radically accepting of any online space I've ever encountered next to purely trans ones. in some cases moreso because we ban truscum.
  
  You're having a hard time because you're realizing you're closer to being a bot than we are.
  
  why don't you use this as a learning opportunity to reconsider your beliefs about tankies?
  
  Liberal and Soc-Dem spaces are mostly white male neckbeards, so extrapolating further, leftists must be 200% he/him neckbeards.
  
  I've met many liberal politicians, activists, and organizers in my life. I've been to many polling places dominated by liberals. This is absolutely not true and a weird thing to say - tons of women and Black people are present. Liberalism is a white supremacy upholding system, but it's also the only option many marginalized people believe they have because of how closed off political horizons are in the US. For careerists, it gives an opportunity to be a black face in a high place.
  Soc Dem spaces, yeah, ime, this is correct.
  
  Liberal and Soc-Dem spaces are mostly white male neckbeards
  No they aren't tf. Maybe on reddit but that's 90% of reddit.
  
  No, that is true, even if it is less directly disqualifying of the specific political tendencies, and the closing of practical horizons of American politics meant that there is a vast demobilization of political action. So, mostly because voting and engagement with mainstream politics is highly correlated with several axes of privilege, white people vote more than non-white, wealthy vote more than poor, etc. So, most mainstream politics and all electoral positions over-represents white middle-to-upper class. There is less of a gender gap on the face of it for parties than one would think because there are a lot of white and women from conservative areas that vote Republican. But there is also a boomerang effect of people that are privileged enough to not suffer ill effects of failure of sabotaged progressive movements such as the Black Panthers and Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition are more likely to vote to the left of the Democratic Party. Because you could get some minor pork-barrel spending if you support the establishment over progressive candidate that will just be crushed by the machine or fizzle out due to internal fractures and more minor sabotage.
  So, yes they are. Maybe that is 90% of electoral politics, but it is true that Soc-Dems are disproportionately white men. Though that is more of mainstream politics over-representing privilege on many axes. And also if it is divorced from daily struggle and immediate issues (as mainstream politics works to alienate us from), then politics becomes horse-race stuff for nerds.
  
  Blah blah blah I don't see any proof so I'm not reading this.
  
  the fact that you're from the midwest already told us you can barely read. no child left behind ass.
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- What are your opinions on pronoun tags?
  
  Lol proving my point, this is like, the exact thing a bot would reply.
  
  Lmao, seriously though, what your your opinions on them?
  
  Support them.
  
  Good, then why are you trying to use that as proof we are bots? Like have you ever even looked at hexbear.net?
- The pronoun tags give it away. They're completely random.
  Nice transphobia you got there. How are cis people that fucking ignorant of nonbinary people existing?
  
  NB exist but they aren't 60% of the population like on hexbear.
  
  I know it might come as a shock to you, but Hexbear’s not a random sample of the population.
  That’s like saying Lemmygrad can’t be >90% communists because the global population isn’t
  
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- You're a fucking idiot lol
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how do you people live with yourselves. that's definitionally war.

Right, drone strikes have never gone wrong or been abused

Groups in the US have been working on this for quite some time. The Mexican president has condemned invasion threats from these american groups and called the american media sphere trying to build up to this fascistic, comparing american media to goebbels.

The excuse being used is cartels. But it is ultimately an invasion to force mexico into privatisation of various resources and inflict american will on them.

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once again, i have to commend you on the quality of this bit

I want to believe

Yeah right, and when Trump talked about the "bad hombres" coming over the border and bringing crime with them he was totally just talking about the bad Mexicans. This totally isn't just another American candidate for the presidency stoking racial hatred to garner votes from people who believe these things.

Totally agree, these are peace bombs, not war bombs.

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