2w ago

34,000! Largest rally that Bernie or AOC have ever had

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so when does the revolution start?
- America isn't going to have a revolution. Modern Americans couldn't revolution our way out of a Walmart. Best we might be able to do is a collapse, and we'll blame it on everybody in the world but ourselves.
- say the literal acts you want Americans to do or you're even more cowardly than we are. ICE can't disappear you if you're in europe, you don't need to mince words
  
  here you go:
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
- America doesn't need a revolution, a simple general strike will remind the capitalist bastards that they rely on us, not the other way around.
  
  then what are you waiting for?
  
  I'm Australian. We have mandatory voting, which makes it almost impossible for a nutjob like Trump to take control here.
  
  same, I meant what are they waiting for
  
  But we do have little to no independent media, which does help Dutton and his cohorts (Trumpets of Patriots or some nonsense) convince people to put in donkey votes at best and vote for them at worst. All they need is a majority in parliament to push the crazy.
  
  Americans haven't given up their consumerism, so a general strike is out of the question.
  They need money for subscribing to digital entertainment they can be getting for free and to order food with delivery apps at 100% markup.
  This generation sucks.
  
  lol imagine not receiving your pay because you went on a strike
  
  we did a blackout already, nothing happened. Barely even made news.
- Slowly. Luigi was a good start.
  If Americans want to revolt, they'll have to do it in the shadows.
  Any common man can kill a rich person. No organized resistance is required, and any organized resistance is going to be infiltrated by the FBI and shut down before anything significant happens.
  It would be neat if the heroes that kill our oppressors end up getting social media famous as they do it.
- ...the revolution will not be televised...
- when things actually start happening.
  Until then, nobody cares.
  If you've ever wondered why hitler got so far, this is why.
  
  when things actually start happening.
  gestures broadly
  Things like American citizens being deported to foreign prisons when they have not committed a crime?
  Travellers with legal visas at the border being imprisoned and tortured instead of just turned away?
  Private citizen data being stolen from government facilities while federal employees are illegally terminated from their jobs?
  States being threatened with loss of funding until the King gets a personal apology up to his standards?
  What things are you waiting for?
  
  is there actually evidence of them being tortured?
  Illegally detained sure. The worst thing that's happening right now is the deportation stuff, but we've done this before, multiple times. Notably with the japanese.
  It's not good, don't get me wrong, but we've done it before, and came back from it once. All of this shit is also being challenged by the judicial branch, whenever it gets off of its ass that is.
  most of these things haven't gone through fully, or are being immediately responded to with lawsuits. USAID for example. Immediately overturned in court.
  
  Eagles said the detainees at the San Luis facility have no sleeping mats or blankets or windows, and the lights are on all day and night.
  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/canadian-detained-us-border-1.7483021
  Now we could quibble about the degree of torture, but then we would be arguing about how much torture is acceptable for someone who had a visa, a job in the US, and was apprehended at the border instead of just denied entry.
  And again I ask, what specific things need to happen before people will start doing something about it?
  
  i'm not sure that's necessarily torture, inhumane conditions for sure.
  The worst one in that case is lights being on 24/7 and no sleeping arrangements. But it's also not clear how long people are being held either.
  Speaking to CBC News earlier Thursday, Jasmine's mother, Alexis Eagles, said her daughter — who grew up in Yukon and had been living in B.C. until last year — was being detained at the San Luis Regional Detention Center after she recently tried to enter the U.S. from Mexico.
  she's canadian, visiting canada, and entered the US through mexico? Ok, so it looks like she tried to enter at the canadian border, her visa was revoked, she tried to then enter through the mexican border for some reason, after having her visa already revoked. Seems questionable and like a stupid decision to me, and even her mother seems to agree with that.
  and was apprehended at the border instead of just denied entry.
  i would assume that revoking a visa, is a denial of entry, especially since this literally happened at the canadian border, so maybe you want to read up a little bit on that one again.
  And again I ask, what specific things need to happen before people will start doing something about it?
  i don't know, good question, it's the hard question to answer here. The judicial branch has already done something about it. It's definitionally illegal, it's just a matter of it being escalated to the scotus, and hoping they side with the law.
  
  i'm not sure that's necessarily torture, inhumane conditions for sure.
  As I said, your quibbling over the definition of torture, ignoring the actual issue here: is this "inhumane treatment" appropriate for someone who hasn't been charged with a crime?
  But it's also not clear how long people are being held either
  She was held for 11 days, it's in the first paragraph.
  i would assume that revoking a visa, is a denial of entry,
  "She attempted to return to the States with the new visa
  I would assume being granted a new visa is a statement that "it's okay to come back now'.
  The judicial branch has already done something about it. It's definitionally illegal
  And no one is listening to them.
  the scotus, and hoping they side with the law.
  The same SCOTUS that already ruled that Trump can not be charged with a crime? If they side with these illegal actions will that be reason to act? Or will the response be "The Court says this is legal so I guess it's fine."
  They are boiling the frog slowly. If you were asked a year ago if everything that's happening now would be cause to do something and start protesting most people would have said "of course!" But somehow by the time the US got here people are still saying "we'll protest when things actually start happening".
  People who have committed no crimes are being detained with no charges in inhumane conditions for weeks, and everyone in a position of power is fine with this. So I continue to ask you name something that if it were to happen it would definately be time for Americans to do something. It doesn't have to be the exact line in the sand, it can be something that "we should be protesting before this happens, but if it has gotten to this point we definately should be opposing it."
  Holding people in inhumane conditions isn't enough.
  Denying reporters access to the country because they have been critical of Trump in the past isn't enough.
  Deporting American citizens to foreign prisons isn't enough.
  The fact that a judge said they can't deport American citizens to foreign prisons and they still did it anyway isn't enough.
  So what is enough?
  
  As I said, your quibbling over the definition of torture, ignoring the actual issue here: is this “inhumane treatment” appropriate for someone who hasn’t been charged with a crime?
  it's the capital punishment system, it's highly inhumane from bottom to top, idk what you want me to tell you, or why this is even surprising to you. This was a bad idea, and her mother evidently must've told her it was, and she didn't listen.
  She was held for 11 days, it’s in the first paragraph.
  that doesn't specify whether it was in that specific facility or not. She could've been moved a few times by that point.
  In a Facebook post, Eagles said Jasmine was held at the San Ysidro border crossing for three days after she tried to enter the U.S. on March 3, and was then moved to San Diego before she and others were "forcibly removed from their cells at 3 a.m." and sent to the Arizona facility around March 9.
  oops, she was moved, multiple times.
  Eagles is less clear on what happened next, but said that Mooney then got "some sort of consulting visa application."
  "She attempted to return to the States with the new visa, and she had already been flagged so they just detained her," Eagles said.
  it's not clear how she obtained this visa, and the fact that she went all the way to the southern border? Is patently suspicious, why wouldn't you just go back to the northern border if it was a basic clerical issue? Especially knowing that the politics around the southern border are bad right now. It really seems like she was trying to be held in captivity at this point.
  I would assume being granted a new visa is a statement that "it’s okay to come back now’.
  and presumably also through the same border as last time, preferably even the same processing point. I mean this just seems like an objectively bad judgement call to me.
  And no one is listening to them.
  yeah that's the problem, the executive is just doing their own thing, illegally. We either have to wait for them to listen to the judicial, or for it to make it's way to scotus, where it should get interesting. Scotus doesn't have a defined right leaning ruling just yet, so it's hard to say how they would lean here. But a lot of what the trump admin is doing is explicitly unconstitutional and a huge misreading of the power granted to them.
  The same SCOTUS that already ruled that Trump can not be charged with a crime? If they side with these illegal actions will that be reason to act? Or will the response be “The Court says this is legal so I guess it’s fine.”
  and that was an objectively bad and corrupt ruling by scotus, the problem is that we have no means to act upon it, other than complaining about it. If they rule in favor, then i guess we have to figure out what to do from there. And it doesn't look like we have many options unfortunately. But i'm at least semi hopeful they will rule against it, because it's patently unconstitutional.
  They are boiling the frog slowly. If you were asked a year ago if everything that’s happening now would be cause to do something and start protesting most people would have said “of course!” But somehow by the time the US got here people are still saying “we’ll protest when things actually start happening”.
  were people protesting the same time last year? I know there were some big protests over some of the big problems. But fundamentally, people don't care unless their way of life is directly affected materially. That's just the truth of it. There's no way around that, no amount of yelling at people angrily on lemmy or twitter is going to make people care. It's when they and their family starts starving that drastic things happen. This is a well understood phenomenon.
  People who have committed no crimes are being detained with no charges in inhumane conditions for weeks, and everyone in a position of power is fine with this. So I continue to ask you name something that if it were to happen it would definately be time for Americans to do something. It doesn’t have to be the exact line in the sand, it can be something that “we should be protesting before this happens, but if it has gotten to this point we definately should be opposing it.”
  to be clear, the biggest illegal parts of this aren't what's mentioned here. Detaining people without explicit cause isn't necessarily illegal, though you can't hold them indefinitely either, so it's more complicated there. But the two biggest problems are the deportations to places like el salvador, without any due process over it, as defined by previous precedent, and the fact that people aren't even being fairly tried for these crimes they're committing, before being handed over. Whether or not they did it is irrelevant, this is a blatant miscarriage of justice.
  Anybody should be able to agree with this. I'm fairly sure there are several protests happening over this already, and if there aren't idk why. Oh and btw, not everybody in power is ok with this, a lot of congress is against this, evidently, and the judicial branch in particular seems to be pretty against it. The legislative i don't think exists anymore. SCOTUS is probably the most problematic of all of these.
  Holding people in inhumane conditions isn’t enough. Denying reporters access to the country because they have been critical of Trump in the past isn’t enough. Deporting American citizens to foreign prisons isn’t enough. The fact that a judge said they can’t deport American citizens to foreign prisons and they still did it anyway isn’t enough.
  all of these things are bad. I don't disagree, but i also don't know what you want me to do about this, i voted for kamala, evidently not a lot of people did for some reason. So it doesn't seem like it's my problem. Seems to be everyone elses problem, since they have no idea what's happening.
  So what is enough?
  idk it depends on what you're doing. If you're talking completely overthrowing government, that's clearly outlined to be when it hits the bottom line of everyday people. That's just how it is. If you're talking protesting, that's a lot easier, and a lot of people are doing it, but a lot of people also aren't really in a position to protest either.
  
  the problem is that we have no means to act upon it, other than complaining about it
  The problem is that you believe that.
  So by "when stuff starts happening" I guess you actually mean "never" because after all, "there is nothing you can do other than complain".
  
  you have literally like three options.
  Vote, that's coming up in 4 years. Yell, which is protesting. And the third secret option is killing people in the hopes that something happens.
  So far all we're doing is protesting in a small isolated room where only the nerds are. The next best option is protesting publicly, in well known, open spaces. Which we are also doing, to be fair. The best option we have is voting. Which we already fucked up on.
  So by “when stuff starts happening” I guess you actually mean “never” because after all, “there is nothing you can do other than complain”.
  look, when i stop having food to eat, maybe we'll talk about it differently, i'm open to negotiation, unlike most people on the left, amusingly. But for right now, idk what you want me to do about this.

301 comments