You're viewing a single thread.
Aren't Linke on the side with Putin?
No, that's AfD. Linke are leftists, totally opposite of Putin
Other than doing what Putin wants them to do.
[citation needed]
no weapons for Ukraine
no Ukraine in NATO
no NATO in general
demilitarisation of Europe
I think Putin wants all if these too
You want a citation for Putin not wanting weapons shipped to Ukraine?
For disarming Europe in general?
For them bringing in Russia into a European defense pact (fucking uberlol)
For cutting Turkey out of their defense alliances?
Okay bud, here you go:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War
🤡
Yeah their Außenpolitik sucks, but they aren't paid or controlled Putin freaks, that's the AfD and the BSW.
"They just do everything in terms of foreign policy that Putin wants them to do, but that doesn't mean they do what the foreign dictator Putin wants?"
Do you hear yourself?
No, that's not what I said. I don't agree with their foreign policy, that being not wanting to give weapons to Ukraine or other countries, but their social policy is very progressive. Labeling them the effectively the same as BSW and AfD is just wrong.
I didn't say they were Nazis, though I think you could certainly make some snide comments on their pacifist hand-wringing being functionally indistinguishable from isolationism or, dare I say, nationalism in the end.
I said they were Putin's barking, cowardly lapdogs who even if they won a majority and got what they wanted domestically would just get their shit kicked in as Putin finishes his repeatedly stated irredentist goal of reconquering the Soviet/Imperial territories.
Which includes parts of Germany.
Their foreign policy gives democratic socialism a bad name, period. Socialists that won't fight fascism tooth and claw wherever it tries to spread deserve to fail.
they might not be controlled by Putin, but they might as well be. this only means that they're having positions favorable to Putin voluntarily and out of conviction.
whatever their motive might be, in the end it amounts to the same thing that BSW and AfD want as well.
No. Leftists are the most consistent against Putin. All parties have their co-opting agents, but the ratio and overall long term goals is what matters
This shouldn't be needed to be repeated, we're in a leftist social platform after all
Their policy on arms exports reads like an ambiguously phrased expression of misguided pacifism. They argue for negotiation and diplomacy, which isn't itself a bad idea, but it requires forcing Putin to the negotiation table in the first place.
Given they also condemn Putin's aggression, I don't think they're his friends, just naive when it comes to the reality of dealing with an autocratic imperialist whose legitimacy as ruler is founded in his appearance of strength.
When an entire group of political creatures act like they don't understand basic human nature, it's because they're manipulating you.
They know. It's their job to know. They keep their jobs by knowing.
Especially when it's "socialists" acting like they don't understand the goals of fascists.
I don't think international relations is quite so basic as you make it out to be. I've read expert opinions months back already stating that the current rate of attrition would see Putin forced to negotiate sooner or later, but it's hard to call just when. Maybe his willingness to enter talks now indicates desperation while trying to bluff strength still.
In any case, they've made a case for blocking tankers and increasing economic pressure. They're not just looking to abandon Ukraine, simply advocating for ways that don't involve exporting more weapons, which is why I think it's not a matter of opposing goals, just disagreement on the means.
Yes, but they kind of support giving Putin everything he wants and are willing to push Ukraine under the bus to aphese Putin. Sounds like they are pretty close to Putin.
That's the BSW, which thankfully split from the left.
BSW is so laughable, the most obvious right wing false flag party
Die Linke wants to stop giving Ukraine the means to defend itself as well. not much better than the BSW
Bullshit. They want Putin to piss off out of Ukraine. According to Die Linke, peace can only be reached when every last russian soldier retreats and the occupied territories are returned to Ukraine. Also, they want further and stricter sanctions against Putin, his puppets and the russian military industrial complex.
Doesn't sounds like they are close to Putin or want to give him anything.
this only means they're delusional.
"when we stop to support the Ukraine with weapons, we're sure nothing bad will happen and Putin will leave voluntarily if we just nicely ask him to"
seriously, how disconnected from reality can one be?
That is an argument to be made. But it's far away fromnthe party being friendly towards Putin's Russia.
Also, it's not voluntarily. The Party wants to further the sanctions against Putin, his puppets and the russian military industrial complex and also want to put more international pressure on Russia.
Again, we can debate how effective those measures would be, and given the recent news about how the sanctions against russia are circumvented I'd be unsure and personally I am supportive of arms deliveries for Ukraine, but accusations of being Putin's friends are just false. If you want to see Putin's puppets in the german parliament, look at AfD and BSW. You will see the differences, I think.
accusations of being Putin's friends are just false
that might be, but it doesn't matter for me. AfD and BSW want to stop weapon deliveries just like Die Linke.
AfD and BSW are Putins friends and what they demand leads to Putin getting (parts of) Ukraine. Die Linke isn't Putins friend and what they demand leads to Putin getting (parts of) Ukraine. in the end it's the same
Die Linke isn't Putins friend and what they demand leads to Putin getting (parts of) Ukraine. in the end it's the same
No, that's wrong. Die Linked demands the full retreat of Russia, international security guarantees and full ukrainian sovereignty.
Die Linke can demand from Putin whatever the hell they want. without weapons Ukraine is doomed and there's no reason for Putin to listen to their demands and to think he'll listen is, like I said, delusional (that's my whole point).
also, Putins promises and guarantees (which he won't make) mean nothing. what's stopping him from attacking again after rebuilding his army?
But Die Linke doesn't (only) demands from Putin but wants to bring international pressure and international security guarantees.
Again, I agree that Ukraine also needs weapons, but that's not the point I'm arguing. I argue that saying "Die Linke is friendly towards Russia" is a false statement and that their points are not misrepresented.
I think what Putin wants more than anything is for countries to stop arms deliveries to Ukraine. And what I see is that the Linke want that too.
So, they are aligned at this.
You just can keep construction your BS, that doesn't change that Die Linked opposes Putin and other autocrats. I see no point in furthering this discussion since I don't like running headfirst into brick walls. Bye.
The real reason is you can't argue what im saying.
Look, I don't think the Linke is actually on Putins side. I'm saying they are stupid and doing Putin a favour even if they don't want to. It's the same with the Left in my country.
Also: tankies exist. And often they will exist in the most left party. So it's not completely out there to expect there might be some genuine affection for Putin there. There is in my country.
Also: tankies exist. And often they will exist in the most left party. So it's not completely out there to expect there might be some genuine affection for Putin there.
But the tankies just left and created their own party, the BSW.
Also I find it stupid to compare two parries from different countries to say they're the same because they lean in the same general direction.
I'm not saying they are the same, but they are both strongly on the left, I checked and they have the same policies, very sensible policies in my opinion. And they both oppose weapon support for Ukraine.
I did a google search and without any problem found groups associating with Die Linke that are tankies. Marx21, Kommunistische platform.
So yeah pretty similar. Both very problematic in the sense of their connection to Russia and Putin.
Dude, let's just end it here. I have no idea where you're from and what party from.your country you're talking about. Neither of us has enough knowledge about each other's party to really talk this out, especially not about the actual processes inside the parties. A quick google search will not give sufficient insights and you refuse to acknowledge viewpoints and insists that do not conform to your superficial judgment, which is really pissing me off. Bye.
Well I'm sorry, but it's not like you tried to present something I was missing with my understanding. Bye.
They want to stop arms delivering in itself. But if that means Ukraine will fall they won't stop it now.
They won't stop it? What does that mean? Would they increase it if USA stops for instance?
Are you asking me what "not stopping" means?
I don't know about an increase.
I'm asking are they on board with supplying weapons. Do they understand that there is no other way. Or are they so reluctant that they will change their mind when an opportunity for that occurs?
It is a claim spread to discredit them, both by pro Putin pro business far right media and pro business center media and politicians that have moved strongly to the right/far rigt over the past year.
Die Linke opposes delivering weapons into war zones but demands proper sanctions while keeping diplomatic channels open. Basically sending weapons is truly the last resort. The goal is to minimize the loss of human life
This is contrary to the CDU/CSU, FDP and SPD and to some extent Green policies, who rather have lackluster sanctions, ignore sanction violations but instead send weapons. The goal is to maximize business and to have Ukraine sacrifice itself for weakening Russia.
In terms of results for Ukraine the latter strategy has failed Ukraine, but was very successful from a business perspective. The more Russia is exhausted and the more Ukraine is destroyed, the more money can be made with rebuilding and buying off Ukraine from the Ukranians. Trumps recent demand of minerals worth 500 billion is only again speaking the quiet part out loud. But as both European and US weapon deliveries to Ukraine only ever allowed them to slowly loose, instead of properly win, it seems to be very plausible that sacrificing Ukranians to cause as much damage as possible was part of the strategy.
The strategy of die Linke is a bit to idealist now, as reestablishing Ukraine in its full sovereign borders will need more weapons, but mostly more troops. But the goal to safe human lifes as opposed to make money and have other people take the punches for your geopolitical targets, is at least a legitimate goal.
Note that the Green party seemed more interested in actually supporting Ukraine to the level necessary to defend itself, but the Greens were willing to make the compromises with the other parties to keep their own power.
Basically sending weapons is truly the last resort.
yeah that's my opinion as well, but since everything else failed, what else can we do to make sure Putin doesn't get anything of what he wants? after he invaded Ukraine after more than 25 years of diplomacy efforts, he made it very clear that diplomacy doesn't work
Russia is still exporting about 750 million € of energy products every day. Most of it is shipped through the Baltic Sea and ends up in the EU either directly or indirectly with intermediaries in Turkiye and India.
The EU is Russias largest LNG buyer. I think that not paying Russia 500 Million € every day / limiting their means to export 500 Million € every day is a huge blow to Russias war efforts. Far stronger than the weapons delivered to Ukraine by the EU in 2024.
https://energyandcleanair.org/december-2024-monthly-analysis-of-russian-fossil-fuel-exports-and-sanctions/
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-turkey-become-vladimir-putin-pit-stop-sell-camouflage-fuel-eu/In terms of diplomacy the way NATO politics were made, in particular by the US in the past 25 years never gave a fuck about Ukraine.
In this regard i can recommend this lecture by Prof. John Mearsheimer, who not only warned against Ukraine's nuclear disarmament in the 90s but also foresaw the current war.
even if Russia couldn't sell any gas anymore (not even to China/India), this only has an effect long term. if we stop giving Ukraine arms, it won't have that long
I agree that economic sanctions are the best way, but until those are effective enough, we need to give Ukraine the means to defend itself
I understand completely, as we have a party with exactly same ideals in my country and I supported them for the last 15 years. The issue here is that they are completely and utterly wrong, to the point that one can only surmize that they are tankies supporting the Putin regime.
I don't think anyone can look at Putin and his reign for the last 20 years and think that this is a rational person that can be dealt with. After all the agreements he broke, after assassinations, after checynia, after propaganda campaigns ... After they invaded Ukraine again!!! We let them get away with it the first time! This guy and the Russia he created only respects strength. This Linke strategy is so weak, so pointless, so clownish, that one can only understand that they are on his side!?
That's how I see it. And I'm never never ever supporting the Linke we have in our country.
If not buying Russian gas, oil, coal, and other resources while also not selling machine and electronic parts that can be used in Russian weapons in your eyes is "weak, pointless and clownish" then i think you are not that serious about supporting Ukraine, as it might hurt business a little bit...
EDIT: Also note that in regards to Germany the SPD, CDU and FDP were eager to continue business mostly as usual with Russia after the Crimea invasion, even selling German gas infrastructure to Russian companies... If we had had a Green Left government at the time they would have sped up the renewable energy and transport transition, which had reduced the dependence on Russian energy imports instead.
If if if.
Right now Putins main goal is to stop weapon deliveries to Ukraine - a country struggling to defend themselves from a tyrannic imperalist force. The Linke want that too.
I don't see how anything else matters in this situation.
I don’t see how anything else matters in this situation.
Russia is exporting about 500 Million € worth of Crude Oil, refined Oil and LNG per day with its ships, mostly through the Baltic Sea. A significant amount of that stuff either ends up in the EU directly or indirectly through India and Turkiye.
On top of that are still double digit Million € worth of pipeline Gas to the EU.
If you think that handing Russia 500 Million € every single day does not matter, you either don't know what you are talking about or you don't care about Ukraine as soon as it interferes with business.
https://energyandcleanair.org/december-2024-monthly-analysis-of-russian-fossil-fuel-exports-and-sanctions/
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-turkey-become-vladimir-putin-pit-stop-sell-camouflage-fuel-eu/for comparison Germany has approved arms exports worth about 14 billion € to Ukraine in 2024. So Germany has sent about 38 Million € of weapons to Ukraine per day, while sending about a 100 Million € to Russian proxies or even Russia directly in case of LNG per day.
Tell me. If you give one side in a war 2,5x the money than the other side. Which side are you on?
Deflect much?
Answer why Linke and Putin both want to stop weapon deliveries to Ukraine?
Edit: I don't actually think the Left is working with Putin. I think they are idiots that are helping Putin unknowingly. Plus, often tankies are in the most left parties, so it's plausible there is some affection there.
they don't want to support ukraine with weapons, so Putin can do what he wants. so they're not directly supporting the bully, but are actively against helping the victim defend itself
it's also noteworthy that Die Linke is partially the successor to the SED, which was the only party in the GDR. make of this what you want
the successor to the SED
That mantle has mostly been taken by the BSW these days. Anyone who pines for the "good old days" of the GDR are flocking to them.
That's not entirely true, Die Linke has accepted the BSW part and their leader Sarah Wagenknecht for years on end. They knew what she was all about and did not care. If it wasn't for the BSW part leaving on their own, they would still accept them for the votes.
Furthermore, Die Linke still has no interest in dealing with their inglorious past, e.g. they still hail the last SED leader Gregor Gysi.