Bernie Sanders to voters skipping presidential election over Israel: ‘Trump is even worse’
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) shares his message to voters in the Uncommitted Movement who are considering not voting in the presidential race over the Biden administration's handling of Israel.
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Yes, my choice is for a party which doesn't support killing innocent people. The Dems still have time to campaign on that platform.
I agree that one party has said that they are even more pro killing innocent people. And I don't agree with that. That's because I don't agree with killing innocent people at all.
There is no level of killing innocent people that I'm okay with.
Then you're making an emotional decision based on refusing to accept anything less than perfect, and since perfection is not an option in this election, and because not voting is essentially a vote that trump doesn't have to counter, abstaining voters are proportionally more helpful to trump than they are to Harris.
Then you’re making an emotional decision based on refusing to accept anything less than perfect
You can continue making practical decisions based on accepting killing innocent people. I'll be over here waiting for people like you to notice what you're doing. Maybe when you are one of the innocent people being killed you will decide it's not acceptable?
You need to realise that the world is not black and white - it exists in shades of grey where nobody gets everything they want, and have to accept compromise for the greater good. You seem to be stuck in a mental state where you can't bring yourself to vote for a party that isn't offering a perfect world to you, and you must get past that and look at the bigger picture, and the impact of disgruntled blue voters staying home in protest. If trump wins, your protest will have contributed to that win, and you'll have to live with that.
Samvega isn't even American. Don't bother trying to talk with them about this.
Dammit, I got trolled.
If trump wins, your protest will have contributed to that win, and you’ll have to live with that.
No, I promise you, I won't. Me living with being in a world where killing innocent people is politically acceptable is far more harmful than the guilt I will feel on Trump winning. This is because my protest is not contributing anything to that win whatsoever. You might as well ask me to feel unhappy that the moon has craters when I - as far as I can tell - am not a large mass hurtling through space that has hit the moon.
If Trump wins, then that will simply show that enough Americans want to hurt innocent people. As is shown by America being a country which finds itself unable to strongly counter IDF terrorism visited upon Palestinians.
I will be sad, but I won't be completely surprised.
I say it again: my protest will have no effect on Trump winning.
My protest will also have no effect on innocent lives being taken. This is because we live in a morally grey world, where people can rationalise harming innocent people as an acceptable byproduct of doing business. After all, the price of compromise for me getting a better candidate is allowing brown strangers to die. Doesn't that sound great? I deserve more than them. I'm not brown, after all! It's their fault for being born where they are.
And, finally, my protest will have no effect on Trump winning.
You're quite mistaken about that. You will be responsible for trump if you had the option to vote against him and chose not to do so.
You’re quite mistaken about that. You will be responsible for trump
I promise you, my protest against killing innocent people will have no effect on Trump winning. You might be seeing things in black and white.
Well in that case, despite my attempts to educate you, you're simply delusional, and I'm not saying that to insult you - I really want to help you see the bigger picture here - I'm saying it because you're suffering from delusion, and you're not seeing the world for what it is. You are so focused on "punishing" the dems for not blocking aid to Israel (and to that point, I strongly recommend you read the comment below at https://lemmy.nz/post/15784628/11773697 as to why it isn't as simple as you might think), that you're willing to throw away what could be a deciding vote - the polls right now are so even that even a few hundred votes in the right places could throw the election the other way. Perhaps you live in a solid blue state, where you expect Harris to win regardless of how you vote, but when you post comments such as yours on a public forum, other people are going to read them, and be influenced, and if your post makes someone stop and think 'hmm... you know what, I don't agree with Biden's actions, so I'm going to abstain and punish them', and those voters are in swing states, then your actions will have had consequences. Your anger is preventing you from being able to see the bigger picture.
As for your comment that I'm seeing things in black and white, you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not even an American, so I literally have no vote here, but the outcome of this election will have global consequences that will impact me, and that's why I'm keen for common sense to prevail, and for Harris to win. That's why, all things considered, and despite objections I may have to Biden, or even Harris's policies as they impact the rest of the world, the alternative, where Trump wins another term, simply does not bear thinking about.
I promise you, my protest against killing innocent people will have no effect on Trump winning. You might be seeing things in black and white. I don't know why you can't take me at my word.
that’s why I’m keen for common sense to prevail, and for Harris to win
I'm not fond of a 'common sense' which allows for the killing of innocents. Can we please establish a 'common sense' which agrees that killing innocent people is wrong? Reducing harm is great, I agree, but not from a benchmark of 'still kill innocent people'. That is simply not acceptable.
Also, to some people 'common sense' is to vote for a fascist. It's what people want. If enough people want that in a democratic system, what are you going to do? 'Common sense' won't help, if it is 'common' enough to 'sense' that fascism is good.
Perhaps 'common sense' was a poor choice of terminology there, because it's often far from common, or sensible, and I suspect your idea of common sense would differ from mine. in any case.
That said, what I meant by the term was that if you look at the bigger picture, instead of fixating on one aspect, you'll see that there are so many other factors to consider here - woman's rights, lgbtq recognition, racism, sexism, work class quality of life, minimum wage, unions, and so much more,, and that every single one of those would become worse under a trump presidency, for everyone except methheads with guns, and the disgustingly-wealthy. I'm going to assume that you're not in either of those groups.
I do not wish to participate in a system where I am forced to trade the lives of children for my own rights as a queer person, as a feminist, etc.
I do not accept that my health and ease are more important than the health and ease of others.
I will die, at some point, regardless of who wins the election.
I will know suffering, at many points, regardless of who wins the election.
I will have my identities scoffed at, at many points, regardless of who wins the election.
The one thing I can be sure of is that I protect my values, which tell me that I am not better than anyone else simply because of my perspective, and that I accept the loss of their life for no good reason as little as I would accept the loss of my own.
Who exactly do you think is sending arms to Israel? Who is rubber stamping the budget? There are several actors involved in this dance including the Republican House of Representatives and the military industrial complex.
Russia is killing innocent people and will kill many more when Trump “ends the war in Ukraine” by giving Russia Ukraine. Trump will give Gaza and likely Lebanon to Netanyahu. So because innocent people have been killed you’re like whoa, guess I gotta step back and advocate for the terrible perspective of not voting at all, a stance that is supported by propaganda actors backing a Trump win.
Evil includes seeing evil being done and choosing to do nothing, and advocating for the side of doing nothing.
Evil includes seeing evil being done and choosing to do nothing
Agreed, and it is terrible that Dem politicians do that. It makes it hard to pick between the two parties when they both allow the killing of innocents to happen.
What do you want me to do? I can't vote in an election for a country which I am not a citizen, a country I've never even visited.
You can tell yourself that but it doesn't change the reality that you will have directly contributed to Trump's victory, and the elimination of the Palestinian people (and as anyone who knows anything about WW2 will tell you: genocides can get worse).
They aren't American
You can tell yourself that but it doesn’t change the reality that you will have directly contributed to Trump’s victory
I promise you, that is not possible.
Oh right, you can't vote.
What about all the innocent women who are dying in our country because of who trump appointed to the supreme court and the result was the overturning roe vs wade?
Do those lives matter at all to you? Women bleeding to death in their cars because hospitals refuse to treat a miscarriage.
What about the kids who get massacred in school shootings because Trump and people like him won't support increased gun control legislation?
What about all the innocent people of color who have been killed by police? Do they matter to you?
If trump gets into the office not only will the Palestinian people be far worse off, so will every group I mentioned above and more.
You said you are against killing innocent people, then why dont you care about the women, children, and people of color who are getting killed in our country needlessly?
There's far more destruction for far more people if trump gets into office. If you want to double down, go for it, because I think it's worth reminding people just how much death in our country can attributed to Trump. Every woman who dies from preventable pregnancy complications. Trump directly contributed to that.
What about all the innocent women who are dying in our country because of who trump appointed to the supreme court and the result was the overturning roe vs wade?
See state ballot initiatives. they've been far more effective in 4 years than democratic presidents and congress critters have in 5 decades.
What about the kids who get massacred in school shootings because Trump and people like him won’t support increased gun control legislation?
see above.
What about all the innocent people of color who have been killed by police? Do they matter to you?
see above. biden and harris support the police remember? they actively fought against police reforms.
If trump gets into the office not only will the Palestinian people be far worse off, so will every group I mentioned above and more.
yes that is unfortunately true, maybe you should inform harris to change her position on genocide to ensure the other groups are not put at risk over her hubris? On the flip side its a lot easier to protect the groups you're white knighting for in your local community via your local reps and processes and your own personal actions.
Maybe you should realize you can in many states safely vote third party for president and democrats down ballot and essentially have the same national outcome while simultaneously undercutting the genocide harris is dead set on committing. thereby giving left wing congress critters more leverage with harris post election.
What you are really telling everyone here is that you are unwilling to give up a bit of your privileged lifestyle over a little bit of genocide. That says more about you than it does about the individuals withholding their support from harris.
state ballot initiatives
LOL, way to immediately tell everyone that you have no fucking clue how this country works.
oh dear am I embarrassed!
seeing a pattern here?
If trump gets into the office not only will the Palestinian people be far worse off, so will every group I mentioned above and more.
There is no level of killing innocent people that I’m okay with.
I'll support a political party which does not want to make people worse off because of their identity.
The problem, as I see it, is that there is literally no chance for a third party to win the presidency.
Which means that I have three options:
We can't solve the genocide by voting third party. All we can do, all that the little power granted to us can do, is try and prevent it from getting worse. So if you want to prevent as much killing as you actually can, if you want to give the most people the opportunity to live, then morally as I see it, you need to vote Harris.
Is she perfect? No. Hell no, man. But she is the candidate that with this genocide happening, and it is happening regardless of who is getting in, who will give the most Palestinians a chance to live. A third party candidate isn't making it to the White house so a third party candidate can NOT lessen the harm.
Which means that I have three options
I do not have three options, myself.
It is said that Americans have three options, the best of which only might improve the situation where one country is terrorising another country by killing innocent people, every day.
Which means that I have three options
I do not have three options, myself.
It is said that Americans have three options, the best of which only might improve the situation where one country is terrorising another country by killing innocent people, every day.
So are you American? It sounds like you aren't and, if not, why are you advocating for people not to vote or vote third party?
why are you advocating for people not to vote or vote third party?
Can you point out where I advocated for any particular voting choice? I just said that I don't find killing innocents acceptable, and would prefer to have the choice of voting for a party which agreed with that - in my mind, perfectly acceptable - moral value.
For someone that's not even American you love telling everyone in America what to do in as many posts as possible.
Just say you like trump ffs
I don't like killing innocent people. Which is something Trump will do, so I don't like him.
I checked your post history, I don't care much for you, either.
Oh wow, the perpetually-online militant fuckwit read my comments, that's just terrifying!
Anyways.
K while everyone else at the adult table discusses things you can play with your imaginary options.
Every country kills innocent people. It happens.
Every country kills innocent people. It happens.
Thanks for admitting this.
imaginary options.
Not respecting a human world which purposefully kills the innocent is not 'imaginary'.
Not even trying to minimize the amount of killing in the human world because it won't reach 0 seems like you don't actually care about human life at all.
That's interesting. I have to support a party which supports killing innocent people to be against killing innocent people.
Wow, humans sure are good at rationalising things in a nonsensical way. No wonder they've made such a fucked up world.
That's not what I'm saying. You can absolutely continue to condemn and fight the democratic party on any topic you deem worthwhile.
But putting that tiny mark on the ballot paper might ever so slightly get the world moving closer to the ideal you imagine, instead of veering away from it.
That is the rationale I'm using here.
Voting doesn't mean you support them.
You aren't giving them money, you aren't campaigning for them. You are saying that between these two, admittedly fucked up, parties this is the one you think that will be better.
So for the presidential election, vote to reduce harm - not to increase it.
If you want to do better, support, fund, campaign for third parties down line. Local elections and build the momentum until they become a viable presidential candidate. Work to reform the electoral system that can dismantle the two party system.
But don't think voting for Harris is de facto supporting the Democratic party.
So for the presidential election, vote to reduce harm - not to increase it.
Then give me a party which does not allow harm to be done to the innocent. I will gladly vote for them.
Voting doesn’t mean you support them.
Ah, so someone could vote for Trump, but then say "I didn't vote for Trump because I support him." Does that make sense to you?