Framework won’t be just a laptop company anymore
Framework won’t be just a laptop company anymore

Framework won’t be just a laptop company anymore

It started with notebooks, but that wasn’t the master plan.
Framework won’t be just a laptop company anymore
Framework won’t be just a laptop company anymore
It started with notebooks, but that wasn’t the master plan.
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Cool. How about a repairable phone with a headphone jack? I'll be a day one buyer.
How about a repairable phone with a headphone jack?
The Framework 16 notebook doesn't even have a headphone jack, only a USB-C to jack adapter.
It's one of the slot in ones though right? so it doesn't really count - it effectively integrated.
It counts because the adapter slot cannot be used for something else. It is different with the smaller 13 inch model.
It counts because the adapter slot cannot be used for something else.
I don't understand this objection. I mean, sure, if you put an audio block in a slot for the headphone jack, it can't be used for something else, but let's say they omitted a slot and just put a fixed-into-the-case headphone jack there. I assume that you wouldn't be happier with that.
I could maybe understand it if normally a headphone jack on a laptop went somewhere other than where the slots would be, but on my Thinkpad, it's where the slots are on a Framework laptop.
They just give you the option to have or not have a headphones jack.
let’s say they omitted a slot and just put a fixed-into-the-case headphone jack there.
Or let's not because that isn't what happened in the 13 inch model.
Point is: Placing hope into a Framework phone with a headphone jack is IMO misplaced based on Framework's most recent track record. Not even Apple got rid of headphone jacks in MacBook Air.
As someone with the 13, I would prefer the 6 slots on the 16 to the 4+headphone jack on the 13.
The best part of the modular slots is you can swap the side the jack is on for whatever works best or have it on both. (Through the magic of buying two of them.) Also if something goes wrong with the jack it's significantly easier to replace.
As someone with the 13, I would prefer the 6 slots on the 16 to the 4+headphone jack on the 13.
If you think that getting rid of the headphone jack would result in more slots, you're out of touch with reality. There would be an additional slot on the other side of the chassis where there is no headphone jack, so 5 overall. But there aren't. The headphone jack has absolutely nothing to do with the number of slots. Audio output is a tiny component.
Well.. yeah. The 13 is smaller. I bought it before the 16 was a thing. The geometry as designed doesn't allow 3 banks of slots.
I'm just saying, the 16 having 6 total slots, one or more of which can be an audio jack, is an upgrade. I have the audio jack module anyway specifically because it occasionally works better to have the jack on the right side of the laptop instead of the left, and then the built-in jack is vestigial.
It not being mega-ultra-built-in doesn't matter.
I don't even use built-in headphone jacks anymore. I use external DACs with 2.5, 4.4 and quarter inch. Good thing for me that I can get an extra port while others can use a headphone jack still.
Modular ports would be great. I’d love to have two USB ports on a phone rather than a USB and headphone jack.
two USB ports
I don't know if both could provide the same amount of power, and I'd bet -- given that laptops don't -- that the phone would only be able to charge off one.
USB ports aren't perfectly interchangeable today. If they can't be made to be, I kind of wish that at least USB would have a set of standards for indicating power-in capable ports and ports by wattage capability. Like, reserve one color or symbol or something for one, one for another. Right now, device manufacturers just do whatever and sometimes don't indicate what is what. I mean, yeah, it's great that they're backwards compatible, but when you have ports that don't all behave the same, it'd be nice for it to be immediately-obvious what they do.
Also, while I'm dreaming, I'd like power-pack and battery capacity to be listed in watt-hours rather than amp-hours, given (a) that voltage isn't universally the same and (b) that what people care about is about how long something can be run ("I have an N watt device and an M watt-hour battery...").
given that laptops don't -- that the phone would only be able to charge off one.
My personal Framework 13 can charge from either the left or right side USB-C ports, and my work Lenovo Thinkpad can charge from either the dedicated USB-C slot, or the USB-C dock port. Point is, as USB-C gains more widespread adoption, limiting a device to only using one port for charging is becoming much less common.
That said, Framework does point out that not all the expansion bays can deliver/receive the same amount of power and they recommend (at least for the 13) to only use the rear ports for charging.
I'm pretty sure that a USB hub would work at least on Android, giving you as many ports as you want.
Repairable, open phone, you can load whatever OS you want. A phone that is more akin to a computer than a smartphone. A pinephone, but better.
If you don't care about 3.5mm a FairPhone comes pretty close to that description.
A Framework phone with 2 modular Framework sockets would be amazing. I don't care if it's thick. Make it repairable and support Linux Phone OSes like postmarketOS and I would absolutely buy it.
I kind of wonder how viable it'd be to make a product that consists of:
Smartphones don't have standard dimensions at all, resulting in a zillion cases out there, but having the case with a standard "dock" attachment as a separate part would mean that you don't have to build a million variations on the dock.
There are existing "put the smartphone in a dock" products, but they're aimed at putting the phone on a desk, using it like a laptop. I dunno if there's something comparable for just holding it. I haven't seen anything like that.
From a purely-electrical standpoint, USB-C permits for a lot of devices to be added. But physically, on a smartphone, that means carrying other boxes. A "dock" that just extends the height of the phone would avoid that.
If the only thing you want is a headphones jack on a smartphone, I'd probably just get a small USB-C-to-1/8"-TRS adapter and leave it attached to the headphones; they can be pretty small.
I would like a phone that has a removable battery, user replaceable screen, and expandable storage. I think Framework would do well to add one or two of their modular slots on the phone since phones already have USB-C support. I would also love to see a phone keyboard similar to the PinePhone keyboard case but using USB-C instead of I2C. Such a case could also incorporate a USB-C dock, providing more Framework module slots or at least additional USB ports, video outputs, an extended capacity battery (using USB-PD to charge itself as well as the phone), and of course also being a tiny keyboard clamshell that fits in your pocket. It could also be nice if the phone could easily detach from said case for taking calls, as the PinePhone keyboard replaces the back cover and does not separate easily when needed.
phone keyboard similar to the PinePhone keyboard case
This doesn't buy you a single device with a physical keyboard, but if you're willing to tolerate a separate keyboard device, you can get those in smartphone form factor.
There are full-size keyboards that fold down to the size of a cell phone and fit in your pocket:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=folding+keyboard
That won't solve your issue if what you want to do is to be walking down the street and tapping away, but if the concern is intensive text-typing sessions when you're sitting down, that can work.
There are also tiny keyboards that you can hold in your hand that'll talk to the phone via Bluetooth:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=handheld+keyboard
You can get phone cases that hold both such a keyboard and the phone:
I have some of those tiny keyboards, but the PinePhone keyboard case is far more convenient to use as a mini on the go PC than a separate keyboard. If such an all in one option existed for more powerful hardware it would be amazing. I love the idea of a phone that doubles as a true pocket laptop including connectivity options.
I love the idea of a phone that doubles as a true pocket laptop including connectivity options.
I haven't looked recently, but you might try looking at Japan. They were way ahead of the US in the palmtop form factor. I remember boggling at what they had on the market -- albeit expensive -- about twenty years ago.
Japan has also been well below the US in personal computer ownership. My guess as to explaining those two facts -- lack of personal computers, but availability of palmtops -- is that a big part of available computer use time in Japan might be when someone is on mass transit. They're willing to pay a premium for something usable there.
googles
I'm not seeing anything likely in a quick search, but there are some more-recent "UMPC" form factor devices from various companies that look kinda similar. Larger than the palmtops, so might be what you're thinking of.
I have seen the GPD devices before and if they were a bit smaller (phone sized) and had cell capability maybe that would be a good option. As is, they are not small enough to be in a separate category than the Steam Deck IMO, and I already have a Steam Deck. I also like the idea of the keyboard being detachable as sometimes the phone form factor is desirable, like when holding it up to your ear.
Yup. All I need from a phone is:
If I could get that and be able to run full desktop applications when docked, I'm sold. The Pinephone Pro looks super cool, but I'm not sure if MMS works and battery life is apparently pretty bad. I don't even need a decent camera, though gaming a camera is useful to capture QR codes and whatnot.
I'm looking at getting a Pixel to use GrapheneOS, but I'd buy a framework phone with good hardware if it was available.
I want a phone that:
I already have plenty of ways of running desktop applications on big screens. I have a laptop, I have a desktop, I have a Steam Deck. However, my phone is always on me and those devices aren't. Linux phone is awesome because I can always have the applications I need literally in the palm of my hand, and if not they're just an apk or flatpak install away. I've been working on tweaks and utilities to make the experience of using desktop applications easier on mobile Linux, including a virtual mouse using the touchscreen and now working on a Phosh plugin to quickly change screen scaling. A pocket keyboard accessory would make using said desktop applications even easier. I've done quite a bit of coding, compiling, and dabbled in image editing on my mobile devices.
My daily driver phones at the moment are a OnePlus 6 running stock Android (because Linux isn't quite 100% yet) and a OnePlus 6T running postmarketOS. I got a cheap Mint SIM in both phones. Android phone for my calls, texts, camera, and occasional Google apps (mainly maps) usage. Linux phone for everything else, mainly my pocket computer on the go. I used to carry the PinePhone with keyboard, but even with the keyboard case the battery life was awful and it got super hot and it was slow. The OnePlus 6T with pmOS gets surprisingly good battery life. I can't daily drive the 6T due to the lack of VoLTE, which means calling falls back on the 2G network which they are shutting down very soon. Luckily, someone is working on reverse engineering VoLTE bringup and released a proof of concept daemon to enable it. I've successfully made VoLTE calls but it doesn't always enable and audio sometimes breaks.
I feel like the Pinephone Pro is super close to being what I want, so I think Framework could totally take it the rest of the way. They could ship with AOSP, but also support Linux mobile as well.
I'm a developer and I'm totally willing to help with the rest of the little things, but it needs to fulfill my basic requirements first. If parts are easy to replace (e.g. upgrade the camera by sliding in a new one w/ USB-C), I'd pay a premium for it even if the actual functionality kinda sucks.
I would pay a stupid amount of money for one that sits on the back and slides out the side in landscape.
Why not just use type c headphones?
The 3.5mm thing has always baffled me, it feels like complaining your pc doesn't have a VGA port, except the thing you connect costs like a fiver
Why not just use type c headphones?
I can think of several good reasons to use 1/8" TRS headphones (though as I point out in a lower comment, specifically for smartphones, space is at an extreme premium and I think that the majority of people probably don't want to spend the space on an integrated headphones jack; it'd be better to use a small external adapter there):
But for the general case, not on smartphones, places where I have the space to stick a 1/8" TRS port, I am not very enthusiastic about using USB as an audio port.
USB is a young pup and already, physical USB-A ports are being phased out in favor of USB-C ports. I very much doubt that USB-C is going to be around ~150 years down the road the way that TRS has been. I can use a pair of headphones from the 1970s just fine with the latest device, and I can use an elderly radio from the 1970s with a new pair of headphones.The original 1⁄4 inch (6.35 mm) version descends from as early as 1877 in Boston when the first telephone switchboard was installed[9] or 1878, when an early switchboard was used for the first commercial manual telephone exchange[10][11] in New Haven created by George W. Coy.
There are only three decent reasons that I can see to use USB headphones for the general case (like, not the extreme-space-constraint situation that smartphones see):
EDIT: Apparently I lied on the phantom power argument for using USB; according to WP, there are 1/8" TRS devices that do take phantom power (or something comparable; sounds like it's not, strictly-speaking, "phantom power"):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_power
Plug-in-power (PiP) is the low-current 3–5 V supply provided at the microphone jack of some consumer equipment, such as portable recorders and computer sound cards. It is also defined in IEC 61938.[16] It is unlike phantom power since it is an unbalanced interface with a low voltage (around +5 volts) connected to the signal conductor with return through the sleeve; the DC power is in common with the audio signal from the microphone. A capacitor is used to block the DC from subsequent audio frequency circuits. It is often used for powering electret microphones, which will not function without power. It is suitable only for powering microphones specifically designed for use with this type of power supply. Damage may result if these microphones are connected to true (48 V) phantom power through a 3.5 mm to XLR adapter that connects the XLR shield to the 3.5 mm sleeve.[17] Plug-in-power is covered by Japanese standard CP-1203A:2007.[18]
Also, regarding the power argument -- USB power can be a source of noise leaking into what you hear.
USB power can be incredibly, mind-bogglingly dirty. I couldn't believe it the first time I watched some video of some guy with an oscilloscope showing it. I guess it makes sense -- I mean, keeps USB controllers and hub prices cheap -- but there's all kinds of electrical devices that have to deal with it. Anyway, point is, it's the responsibility of the USB device containing the DAC to have a power supply that cleans that up sufficiently before feeding the DAC. It turns out that...they don't necessarily do that. I have one USB-powered (not using a USB audio interface, or switching away from my computer's USB bus wouldn't be an option) mixer with 1/4" TRS output where using the USB power bus off my computer for power resulted in perceptible audio artifacts, humming and such.
This appears to be something of a not-uncommon problem, as I see various references to it online for other devices:
Some of you guys may be aware of my posts and other's in the Topping D10 review thread. It seems that this DAC, like many audio devices that get their [power from the USB Bus, suffer from some noise coming from the USB port itself.
From my own experience, plugging the DAC into a Raspberry Pi 3B (+5v PSU and Ethernet connected) dropped the noise considerably compared to any port on the PC.
And if I can hear it, then I guarantee that there are USB audio devices that are inserting all kinds of garbage into the signal going out the output that are maybe less-egregious.
I wound up avoiding the problem with my mixer (well, at least to the point where I couldn't hear it) by sticking the mixer onto an isolated USB charger, not on my PC's USB tree. Now, yes, you can make a fancy power supply that avoids that, and it's fair to say that the guys that engineered the mixer should have used a better power supply if they were gonna use USB power. But if you've got some guys engineering headphones and are under pressure to try to make the things as cheap as possible, because headphones are a disposable item, not to mention as light as possible because they're gonna sit on your head, I'm not sure I'd bet on how much expense and weight they're gonna put into the power supply feeding the DAC.
I haven't tried quantifying how the power supplies on various USB DACs perform, though I would suggest that in a world where people are using USB audio rather than 1/8" TRS, given that you have headphone reviewers that cover things like frequency response, it'd be interesting to have a device that intentionally screws with the USB input power voltage and then have an oscilloscope or something attached to the leads coming off the magnet driving the speaker's membrane and see just exactly how much glop from USB power is leaking through to the membrane at various dick-with-the-voltage patterns.
EDIT: Oh, and I forgot one other point. Cable length. 1/8" TRS cares very little about cable length. If you want a 200 foot cable, sure, go for it. USB, especially newer and faster forms, is pretty restrictive on cable length. I decided, a few years back, to move my PC to the other side of the room to reduce noise at my chair and had fun discovering that a number of current PC cable standards are not incredibly friendly to long runs. USB couldn't communicate without repeaters or an optical bridge, DisplayPort had visible artifacts and occasionally saw the screen go black and need to re-handshake, etc.
https://www.cablematters.com/Blog/USB-C/usb-cable-max-length
How long can a USB 2.0 Cable be?
The maximum recommended cable length for USB 2.0, is five meters, or around 16 feet. That’s actually the longest maximum length of any standard, passive USB cable specification, with USB 1.0 cables restricted to just three meters.
You may find some USB 2.0 cables that run longer than 5m, but they’ll need to be made with a thick wire gauge to ward off signal loss and interference at anything much past that maximum. Alternatively, you can run longer USB 2.0 connections by bridging two USB 2.0 cables with a powered USB hub.
How long can a USB 3.0/3.1 Cable be?
USB 3.0 and 3.1 Gen 1 cables don’t have an official maximum length, but their recommended maximum is around 2-3 meters in length or around nine feet. Like USB 2.0, you can extend this with a powered USB hub, potentially linking a few together to extend your run, but there are far better solutions for longer USB 3.0 cable runs.
The maximum length for USB 3.0 and 3.1 was maintained into the final USB 3.0 Type-A specification, known as USB 3.2 Gen 2. It was also mirrored in the higher-performing USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 Type-C connections, which also had a nine-foot maximum cable length.
However, USB4 cables, which leverage the USB Type-C connector but can transmit data at up to 40 Gbps, only have a maximum recommended cable length of 0.8 meters or around 2.6 feet. That goes for both the existing 40 Gbps cables and the USB4 80Gbps spec cables which will see greater use in the coming years.
These cables can transmit data at a much greater bandwidth than their USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, or earlier counterparts, which means the cables need to be made of a higher quality to ensure the data is fully transmitted. Unfortunately, that also means signal attenuation is a bigger problem, hence the shorter maximum cable runs for USB4 cables.
Alas I have but one upvote to give.
You forgot that 3.5mm is a stupid connector that makes you pass charged metal pieces over the connector to plug it in. You can't power an anc chip or a dsp with it because it can't do power delivery. That's how you get headphones sounding different based on whether they are turned on
You forgot
I have two sections in my above comment talking about power delivery over 1/8" TRS.
Just replace my perfectly good $200 headphones that work in my (old) phone, my Switch, my 3DS, my laptop, my iPod, and my work phone.
It's so simple!
Seriously, even if you don't use it, why are you so against others having the choice? The headphone *jack was the standard for decades for a reason. If my phone is low on power, I'd like to be able to charge it without disconnecting my music/podcasts...
But like, 3.5 to usbc is a 10 buck conversion. Tbh i see merit in double usb c over usbc and headphone jack, might be more doable too, the DAC prolly takes more space than an additional usbc
A dongle is a workaround. The headphone jack just works.
I hear you, but a usb-c has more uses than one, the only real problem with a dongle is now is that occasionally you need to charge.
A dongle is a workaround. The headphone jack just works.
Framework also uses a USB-C adapter. It costs 20 Euro: https://frame.work/products/audio-expansion-card
That's great! But Framework also includes an audio jack built-in. As should everyone.
But Framework also includes an audio jack built-in.
Nope, the new 16 inch does not. The older 13 does.
What?! That's ridiculous. Hotswap ports are great for high throughput devices requiring PCIe lanes, but taking the audio port out gains you literally nothing. There should be some standard ports + hotswappable ports.
I also wish they could find a way to redesign the Ethernet port with a hinged jaw or something so it isn't so massive, I wouldn't want to leave that plugged in.
Oh, the 13. That's what I was looking at.
A dongle is a solution to the problem "I want to use my headphones with a device with only a USB-C port."
It's not a work-around, a headphone requires a DAC and an amp. In fact, my phone has a crap DAC causing artifacts in the sound. It's actually not to my benefit to have the jack because I'd get better sound with the external DAC which is transparent.
So the jack works, but the DAC you get can be whatever the manufacturer considers good enough.
DACs I can hear issues in:
My phone, my tablet, my desktop PC
DACs that are transparent to me:
My laptop, my $12 external DAC
At the time, there weren’t really many good options for replacement devices.
Using the charging port means listening to music and charging at the same time wasn’t possible.
Now we have split-cable dongles for power banks, and we have wireless charging when possible. It’s better but it’s not great; both have downsides, and accessories are more $.
Do they make type C headphones with a powerbank in them? Do I want a lithium battery that large on my head?
There aren’t many upsides for the consumer or the environment. Still seems to me like this isn’t even a lateral move. Internal components have gotten smaller and more efficient since, so that space could be reclaimed. I really don’t need my phone to be that thin, a phono jack next to the charging port would be just fine. The only real downside might be waterproofing but if you can make it work for the type C port…
The only real downside might be waterproofing but if you can make it work for the type C port…
I've heard that argument against having a 1/8" TRS port on smartphones before, and I don't buy it. Yes, there are lots of devices where there's just air between the connector and the rest of the electronic device, so water entering through the port can flow into the rest of the device...but there is no fundamental requirement imposed that requires devices to be designed like that. It'd be entirely-reasonable to seal it off, have the port external to the rest of the phone, have no way for water to pass from one area to the other.
There are some types of data or electrical connections for which you cannot do that, where the problem is that water's conductivity causes problems for a port itself, and the interface isn't designed to handle things being shorted, but that shouldn't be an issue for 1/8" TRS. Hell, you short its contacts just plugging the device in.
While I personally like having a headphones jack and would be quite happy with a larger smartphone with a larger battery and headphones jack, a lot of people do care a lot about size. I've seen women in particular complaining about the fact that their clothing often has limited or small pockets, and large smartphones don't play well with that.
The headphones jack was never designed to be incredibly space efficient.
That means smartphones have extremely limited space. Plus, if you want it to be modular -- which is how Framework permits for the option to have a headphones jack on their laptops -- you need even more space if you want to maintain structural strength of the phone.
I think that the best bet, if you carry headphones with 1/8" TRS plug, is to just leave a USB-C adapter plugged into the end, as that places the space on the headphones end, where there isn't a space constraint:
This is minimalist, optimizes for size:
https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Headphone-Adapter-Converter-Samsung/dp/B07KJ87HYJ/
This has a passthrough port, so that it doesn't tie up your USB-C port:
https://www.amazon.com/Headphone-Charger-Adapter-Splitter-Charging/dp/B0CSKF9XSF/
This has both a headphones and microphone port:
https://www.amazon.com/ZOOAUX-Microphone-Adapter-Splitter-Compatible/dp/B0CDX38TRN/
This has a headset jack, if you use a headset with integrated microphone:
https://www.amazon.com/Vcddom-Premium-Adapter-Headphone-Compatible/dp/B087CS4T4G/