Ye Power Trippin' Bastards @lemmy.dbzer0.com Unruffled [they/them] @lemmy.dbzer0.com 16h ago

Meta: For the sake of mutual aid with Blajah and my sanity, no more posts about Blajah's moderation policies please.

I'm gonna get real with you folks, we've had way too many of these posts recently. I've been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldn't care less about my gender identity. But just because that's true for me, doesn't make that true for everyone.

The beauty of the fediverse is that if you don't like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.

Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. That's fair enough imo.

Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajah's admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.

I can completely understand why Blajah users don't want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone, other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.

In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com agrees and community sentiment is positive:

that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.

That's all folks, have at 'er.

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343 comments

This shouldn't even be a debate or question. This hateful bullshit against Blahaj just needs to stop and mods need to put their foot down and say enough is enough. Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly is okay or permitted I don't think that !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com should even be on our instance anymore, and our admins should just remove it.

I hope it doesn't come to that. I hope this community can put an end to this bullshit and stop endorsing queerphobic users' complaints.
- Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly
  
  Nobody is arguing against blahaj for being queer friendly. People are arguing against some of their members for being unfriendly to people, including queer people, among them LittleRatInALittleHat. That’s the only reason people are caring about this.
  
  The type of mentality “you’re not allowed to criticize me, because I am X, and so unless you agree with me you’re being anti-X” is tempting but it is wrong. You might think dragon is a gender, or you might not, it is fine, but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender is not and has never been “transphobia” or in any way anti-queer.
  
  but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender is not and has never been “transphobia” or in any way anti-queer.
  
  Well I think queer people can have any gender they want, and you just have to deal with it because it's none of your business.
  
  You might think dragon is a gender, or you might not, it is fine, but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender ...
  
  Well, I'm gonna chime in again, because it's a nice jumping off point.
  
  That argument, that anyone is actually saying dragon is a gender, is simply misrepresenting all of the subject.
  
  Regardless of one's view on xenopronouns in specific, or neopronouns one general, the claim hasn't been that dragon is a gender.
  
  The rule, and the argument behind it, is about pronouns. And it isn't really about the pronouns themselves, as much as it is about who gets to decide when someone is deserving of being respected as an individual.
  
  We're not biking being asked to share a belief that a person is a dragon, or fucks dragons, or that humans can be part dragon.
  
  What we're being asked to do is to respect pronouns or just not talk to someone. That's it. That's what it's about.
  
  The rule simply lays out what will happen if people don't do one of those two things.
  
  You don't have to agree with the word being used as a pronoun meaning anything other than that it replaces traditional pronouns and makes them happy. Does it matter if they think they're a dragon, or a tiger? No. It doesn't matter. If the cognitive dissonance of using a word in an unconventional way is so high that you simply can't do it, that's okay. You have multiple options at that point.
  
  One, you can ignore the request, and accept the consequences as they come. Fair or not, those consequences are known.
  
  Two, you can use them anyway, and roll your eyes while you do it. Nobody will know you're rolling your eyes.
  
  Three, you can use them anyway, and complain about it, which may also have consequences, depending on how you complain.
  
  Four, you can block the individual and never interact with them again, thus preventing cognitive dissonance entirely.
  
  Five, you can choose to just not interact with them at all.
  
  Six, you choose to not interact, but complain about it elsewhere, with possible consequences (as these posts have shown).
  
  There's even other options, but they're absurdist stuff like juggling oranges while singing "I'm a little teapot". So, you know, only entertaining to me.
  
  Now, that's separate from anything else, I'm only talking about the idea that one has to share a belief to be able to use someone's pronouns. Like, my pronouns are he/him, they/them, and I'll accept any gender neutral neopronouns as well. But I'll accept she/her in a pinch, though I may correct those if it's relevant. It's why I never list my pronouns, I'm cool with almost anything, up to and including "that asshole". That's not even a joke, I'm fine being referred to that way as a replacement for a pronoun, or in general.
  
  You don't have to agree with my belief that I'm not obligated to behave in the way a pronoun implies to use any of those. You don't have to agree with my belief that by accepting almost any pronoun that I improve myself by challenging my own concepts of gender in order to use he/him, or any of the rest.
  
  So, why would you have to believe in anything at all to use any pronoun? You aren't expected to log off and tell your roommate or whatever, "jeez, this cat I was talking to was a real weirdo, he's just nuts" and you aren't expected to log off and tell the same person "I was talking to this cat from blahaj and drag sure did annoy me" you can use any pronoun you want when you aren't in the presence of the person requesting an individual pronoun, or any neopronouns, or a xenopronoun.
  
  You don't need to believe anything except that the person, the human being with their own life and needs and pains, is made a little happier by the use of it. That's it. That's all you have to believe.
  
  Regardless of one’s view on xenopronouns in specific, or neopronouns one general, the claim hasn’t been that dragon is a gender.
  
  [heavy sigh]
  
  Drag’s gender is dragon rider
  
  I'm speaking in the general, with dragon as the example used because drag is largely the focus of contention.
  
  The next paragraph, "The rule, and the argument behind it, is about pronouns. And it isn't really about the pronouns themselves, as much as it is about who gets to decide when someone is deserving of being respected as an individual." covers that. I was addressing the rule, and blahaj, not drag.
  
  It hasn't been blahaj policy that I've seen that dragon is a gender, only that you have to treat people's pronouns and genders with respect.
  
  It's one of those where we don't have to agree, we just have to be nice.
  
  Or have the admins specifically addressed the issue as a declarative, and I missed it? I do miss things ;)
  
  It hasn’t been blahaj policy that I’ve seen that dragon is a gender, only that you have to treat people’s pronouns and genders with respect.
  
  https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8b47330e-fe59-466e-aef5-b529ed0b05a5.jpeg
  
  I could go further back to the whole kerfluffle this stems from, where there are more examples, but honestly, I don't feel like digging that shit up.
  
  Ehhh, what that screenshot shows is admins deciding that you didn't treat pronouns with respect.
  
  Obviously, you disagree with their assessment. I do too, really, though I have seen their argument about it somewhere to and down the various threads.
  
  That is a different thing.
  
  I definitely get why you don't think it's different, but, looking at it from this side of the screen, that's not a statement of policy, it's a reaction to their interpretation of what you said.
  
  Against my better judgement, I went into Blahaj back around the time of The Event.
  
  Gender was always meant to help identify where in the spectrum of sex one is. Whether that be male, female, both, neither, slightly female, etc. Y'all are free to say your gender is goth, or as one user on Lemmy is becoming infamous for, Dragon; but you'll likely not be taken seriously, and ultimately you'll be setting back both progression for oppressed minorities as well as already existing accomplishments. PS: op should say what neopronouns are for those who may not know.
  
  Removed: Gatekeeping
  
  If gender means anything then some things are not gender. That's not "gatekeeping." It's a tautology. A word with no meaning is meaningless.
  
  Removed: Gatekeeping
  
  Just as I don't acknowledge "dragonfucker" as a gender I don't acknowledge "god" as a gender type. There's a person around here who insists that they're a god and that they're pronouns need to be capitalized. No one is a god. And no one gets to go around demanding that they're a god and that they should be acknowledged as one. I mostly linger here on blah as a habit really. If I eventually get banned so be it. I have my line in the sand for what will make me leave but until that happens I'll keep lingering like a fart.
  
  Removed, no note
  
  Trans women are women. Nobody is a dragon. Dragons aren't real.
  
  Removed: Gatekeeping
  
  No, I mean I'm no longer going to be on Blahaj, and those are the communities I'll miss. Hence "but… well, Blahaj isn’t for me, since I don’t acknowledge ‘dragonfucker’ as a gender."
  
  Removed: Gatekeeping (that one's literally me)
  
  A lot of people say a lot of things, who cares? I don't think it's an unfair line to draw at all. We draw it at what's real and what's not. Gender as a spectrum is real. We know this. We also know that the person posting comments on Lemmy isn't a fucking dragon because dragons aren't real. Line drawn.
  
  Removed: Gatekeeping
  
  Neopronouns are fine, but not all neopronouns are part of gender identity. Not all identity expressions are gender related. The entire spectrum of gender has a biological basis, and anything which doesn’t have a biological basis is an expression of identity, which is also valid, but not always related to gender. Like, no one can get a medical cocktail to transform into a dragon or cat. Please don’t confuse gender identity with other types of identity expressions.
  
  Removed: Transmed stuff
  
  All of that points pretty firmly to disagreement with dragon as a gender as gatekeeping, not a matter of respecting pronouns.
  
  I think where the disconnect is, is that you're continuously, in those quotes, making declarations about what it and isn't gender, what is and isn't trans.
  
  That's what the comments were removed for.
  
  In those quotes, you aren't seeking understanding, you aren't discussing the subject, you aren't expressing an interest, you're saying, directly "this is my opinion on the matter, and I refuse to consider any alternatives"
  
  You literally say you're drawing a line in the sand.
  
  That's gatekeeping, 100%
  
  Does it make you a transphobe? Hell no. Does it make you a bad person? Not in any way whatsoever.
  
  But it is you doing exactly what the rule is about: telling other people that they and their gender/pronouns are yours to decide the validity of
  
  And that's okay, you have a right to have that opinion and draw that line. We all do.
  
  You do see that though, right? That every quote you chose, it's you declaring other people's genders and pronouns invalid. It doesn't matter whether or not it was drag. It doesn't matter who you were talking about, you don't very to make that decision for others
  
  You don't, I don't, nobody does.
  
  We can all have great discussions about the semantics of gender, of how pronouns function, what their role in language, philosophy, and society are. We can even make declarative statements like that if we want to. But it doesn't change that if we expect our opinions on the matter to hold sway, we'd be assholes.
  
  I mean, c'mon you directly brought in the whole biological argument. Like, the worst possible way to address the subject matter, the claim to have a inherently superior ownership of transness because it has to be biological, and only biology matters? You have to see that that's the exact bullshit being weaponized against trans people. Even if you didn't mean it the same way (and I know you didn't, I know you're not a bigot), it's the exact worst possible argument to use.
  
  It's so arrogant, claiming to have not only the ability to know what is and isn't biological, but whether or not it has validity. You directly say that you're deciding what is and isn't valid, for other people. I mean, are you even a doctor? Of any stripe at all. Can you back up the claim that there's no biological mechanism at play that leads a person to have a connection to an animal that can serve the same role as gender identity?
  
  Because there's a ton of information about neurodivergence out there, and some of it points to there being a high correlation between trans identities and neurological differences from cis brains. The overlap between a huge range of neuroatypicality and not just trans identity, but the very otherkin related identities being objected to is there, and neurology is biology. It just is. You can't have a brain that operates independently of its underlying biological imperatives. It's built by DNA, RNA, and epigenetics into this network of complicated nerves that run through a meat suit, interacting with it chemically and electrically.
  
  That's biology. Now, I'm with you, there's no actual dragons that aren't komodo. And a cat isn't a human, nor is a human a cat. But I am not confident in saying that someone's inner self finding expression by identifying with or as a cat isn't biological. To the contrary, unless it only appears after disease or injury, I would say that it has to be biological in origin, even though the specific expression may be a psychological development as opposed to purely anatomical or physiological one.
  
  While you are definitely not an enemy, not a transphobe, not a bigot, you definitely broke the rule, multiple times, and you picked your own quotes about it. If this was still about whether or not a mod action was justified, it would be totally YDI with that list of quotes.
  
  At every step, you laid claim to the authority to decide for others whether their identity is valid.
  
  I'm kinda beating a dead horse here because I'm a little flummoxed that you can't see all those comments and notice that you're doing exactly what they were removed for.
  
  After all that, it really doesn't matter what the specific target was, it doesn't even matter that they are, defacto, making it clear that they accept xenogenders as valid genders within blahaj and that the rule applies to them. What matters at that point is that you had multiple comment removals and kept doing the same thing. I'd have banned you too, even preemptively because it looks like you're making it a fight.
  
  I think where the disconnect is, is that you’re continuously, in those quotes, making declarations about what it and isn’t gender, what is and isn’t trans.
  
  Only one of them is me, the one tagged with 'literally me'.
  
  In those quotes, you aren’t seeking understanding, you aren’t discussing the subject, you aren’t expressing an interest, you’re saying, directly “this is my opinion on the matter, and I refuse to consider any alternatives”
  
  In which case my original point is correct - that dragon being a gender is mandated by Blahaj policy or actions. Stating an opinion to the contrary is 'gatekeeping'.
  
  And that’s okay, you have a right to have that opinion and draw that line. We all do.
  
  Apparently not, considering the removals.
  
  You do see that though, right? That every quote you chose, it’s you declaring other people’s genders and pronouns invalid. It doesn’t matter whether or not it was drag. It doesn’t matter who you were talking about, you don’t very to make that decision for others
  
  Then you do agree that Blahaj policy is that dragon must be treated as a gender.
  
  While you are definitely not an enemy, not a transphobe, not a bigot, you definitely broke the rule, multiple times, and you picked your own quotes about it. If this was still about whether or not a mod action was justified, it would be totally YDI with that list of quotes.
  
  Again, most of them are not me, I picked them not as examples of what I believe, but as examples of objections that were fundamentally or exclusively to 'dragon' as a gender, without significant hostility which were removed as gatekeeping - ie me attempting to prove my point that dragon as a gender is absolutely core to this whole debacle.
  
  Southsamurai is right, you do seem to just be starting fights for no reason. How is someone being a dragon or anything else supposed to hurt you? What's your motivation? What's your goal? Why?
  
  you’re saying, directly “this is my opinion on the matter, and I refuse to consider any alternatives”
  
  You literally say you’re drawing a line in the sand.
  
  When did he say the second part?
  
  It sounds like he said the first part only. That, to me, is okay. It sounds like the other people in the conversation are going beyond just stating their opinion to drawing a line in the sand, that there are absolutely no alternatives to their chosen point of view, and in fact any attempted alternatives are specifically forbidden.
  
  Ehhh, what that screenshot shows is admins deciding that you didn’t treat pronouns with respect.
  
  Obviously, you disagree with their assessment. I do too, really, though I have seen their argument about it somewhere to and down the various threads.
  
  That is a different thing.
  
  I definitely get why you don’t think it’s different, but, looking at it from this side of the screen, that’s not a statement of policy, it’s a reaction to their interpretation of what you said.
  
  Legitimately, I don't see how that can be reasonably interpreted to be about pronouns at all. My objection was to dragon as a gender. I was banned for 'gatekeeping'. Redirecting that to a pronoun dispute requires a reading that I literally cannot see, not simply one I disagree with.
  
  Thank you for this. It's nice to see that Blahaj is defending all gender identities and not just pronouns.
  
  Regardless of one’s view on xenopronouns in specific, or neopronouns one general, the claim hasn’t been that dragon is a gender.
  
  PugJesus already covered it. Just to clarify, though, because your point is perfectly fair:
  
  I get the policy about using pronouns when you're talking to people. It makes some amount of sense to me, I already talked elsewhere in these comments about why I can completely understand just needing to set a clear, consistent policy on using people's pronouns regardless of anything else. Makes sense. I kind of think that when someone's clearly exploiting that policy to mock queer people to their faces, there maybe needs to be a commonsense exception instead of going to bat for the anti-queer troll, but it's whatever. As people have pointed out, that problem has already been solved and dealt with.
  
  When I say "dragon is a gender," I am talking about people who are screaming that anyone who doesn't agree with the policy is "misgendering" or "transphobic" or a fascist or secretly yearns to start calling all these LGBTQ people slurs. It's super weird, and dishonest. It's divisive and stupid. And using the word "misgendering" in reference to it, which a ton of people are doing, is predicated on the assumption (never started explicitly) that dragon is a gender. And people are getting banned (PugJesus is one, LittleRatInALittleHat is one) not for ever refusing to use the pronouns to anybody in particular, but just by talking about the policy or saying their opinion on it or pointing out that dragon is not, in fact, a gender.
  
  Your list of multiple options doesn't really apply, since neither PugJesus nor LittleRatInALittleHat were interacting directly with anybody at all, just talking about the issue in general terms. They've got a right to do that, I think. Again, I get the reason for the original policy. What's ridiculous is using that as a jumping-off point to say "If you have any disagreement with this policy, even if you're not expressing it to me but just talking with other people about it in general, you are bad and transphobic and you need to be banned and you're a fascist and you hate queer people and you're not allowed to disagree with me because I have X identity and if you do, you are anti-X."
  
  Well put
- Being queer-friendly doesn't mean they're immune to criticism. The issues people have with that instance have little to do with it being queer-friendly, and more to do with heavy-handed mod practices, and I think it's incredibly disingenuous to suggest that that's the reason why people are upset.
  
  Nah the core of most of these posts is whether or not it’s ok to disrespect someone for their xenogender or using neopronouns. People will come in here to say they have been banned for accidentally misgendering or just ‘sharing their opinion’ but every case I’ve seen so far, if you look into their modlog you see that they were actually being really disrespectful about it, making other people with xenogender and/or neopronouns feel unsafe. Blahaj admin has made it clear that disrespecting someones pronouns or identity is not allowed on the instance, which most blahaj users agree with. Anyone who would still like to argue about this rule is just better off on another instance.
- If I were a Blahaj user, I'd be posting about defederation from db0. The transphobia needs to end.
- They’re not queer friendly because they don’t tolerate serious dissent from queers. They’re a safe space for people who live in a fucking fantasy world and not reality.
  
  Reality is overrated. Belief is perception.
  
  Reality definitely is overrated
  
  So why force queer people to live in it when they say it hurts them? Sadism?
  
  Fantasy non human identities aren’t queer.
  
  Okay, so if someone says their gender is cat, you're saying they're not queer. Fine, which non queer identity do they have? For argument's sake, let's say they prefer cat/cats pronouns and object to being he/himed or she/hered. How are they not queer? Make a specific claim please.
  
  Trolls be trolling. I’m not giving into this sea lion nonsense.
  
  They need mental health help, they’re not queer. Cat isn’t a gender anymore than attack helicopter is. You can’t be a cat just like you can’t be an attack helicopter. I’m not putting up with this queerphobic let’s tolerate everyone! nonsense.
  
  Okay, I'll tell you what I assumed when you said that.
  
  You think all catgender people are the gender they were assigned at birth. Male to cat? That's a man. Female to cat? That's a woman.
  
  This is a logical deduction. You said catgender people aren't queer. That means they can't be trans, and can't be nonbinary. This is the consequence of you saying that.
  
  And I am begging you to take it back and allow catgender people to identify as nonbinary.
  
  Catgender people need mental health help. They can be trans, the can be non-binary, they can be cis, but they can’t be cats. They are humans.
  
  Right, so we both agree someone who says "I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a cat" is nonbinary. So why force queer people to live in reality when they say it hurts them? Sadism?
- "They can't be power tripping mods because they are queer!"
  
  No, that is stupid.
- This shouldn’t even be a debate or question.
  
  Yes, that does seem to be the consistent position in Blahaj.
  
  Brother in Christ, imagine you had a sub where you talk about basketball and people constantly came in, not fans of basketball just saying "man, basketball? I don't get it" but they are just using that to argue how basketball shouldn't exist if you dare engage with that.
  
  You'd ban those posts. Because you want your sub to be about basketball for basketball fans. Not because you want to argue with non fans about the validity of the existence of basketball.
  
  Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.
  
  Brother in Christ, imagine you had a sub where you talk about basketball and people constantly came in, not fans of basketball just saying “man, basketball? I don’t get it” but they are just using that to argue how basketball shouldn’t exist if you dare engage with that.
  
  You’d ban those posts. Because you want your sub to be about basketball for basketball fans. Not because you want to argue with non fans about the validity of the existence of basketball.
  
  Cool, now, how about looking around outside of that sub for people who say "Basketball? I don't get it" to hand out bans and accuse of being Basketball-phobes? Or, in this case, an actual Basketball fan who dared question a referee's decision? Unfortunately, the holsum basketball community decided that made them a Sports Hater and an opponent of public schooling, and RIGHTEOUSLY drove them out of town!
  
  Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.
  
  I don't like sports and I'm not particularly traditionally masculine, but thanks for the stereotyping.
  
  I don’t like sports and I’m not particularly traditionally masculine, but thanks for the stereotyping.
  
  It’s part of the definition of “teams.” They need to assign attributes of the enemy team to you, just to make sure everyone understands that they’re on the correct team and need to be supported uncritically.
  
  It’s part of the demonstration of the power relationship. They’re allowed to make snide comments about your sexuality and talk down to you. God help you if you try to do it in the other direction (which is of course as it should be - I’m just calling out the toxic behavior for what it is, not saying it should at all be okay in the other direction.) They’re flexing their privilege within this context.
  
  Idk man. Pick one, or both. Like I say, once you’ve engaged yourself as officially “the enemy” according to established battle lines, people are going to feel like they’re being a good ally if they show up to do battle with you accordingly.
  
  Someone is real pissed they can't argue queer folks existence to their face. Boo fucking hoo. Think about what you are arguing about. A targeted minority wants a place to exist in peace and your pissed you can't call them delusional children. Fuck off
  
  Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.
  
  Oh fuck off. They banned this female gender nonconforming queer for not being down with their support for people who make a mockery of us while my country is trying to genocide us.
  
  They’re a bunch of petulant children living in a fantasy world and anyone who pops their fantasy bubble gets banned. Whatever. There needs to be a queer space for people who don’t get their panties in a twist over being mIsGeNdErEd like it’s the worst thing that ever happened to them in life. Those children need to fucking grow up.
  
  Nah you fuck off. Drawing your line for acceptability one step away from yourself and being a belittling little bigot to people outside your sensibility.

343 comments