Does Lemmy have more freedom of speech than Reddit?
Hello, Im kind of new here and trying to get used to Lemmy and I was wondering about if this is true since I am considering donating on this site to support alternative projects but wanted to hear other users before doing so. That being said, what have been your experiences?
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Absolutely.
It's not even a debate.
My 13 year old Reddit account was perma-banned without warning for saying "PUNCH A NAZI". Let's test that out here.
PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI
And that was just my first of probably 30-40 Reddit accounts before I finally said fuck it and came here. I'm not some asshole purposefully posting asshole shit I know I'm going to get banned for. Reddit is just that pathetic.
It's just that I have zero patience for dipshits posting misinformation (as should we all) and I'm not afraid to let them know it. Lemmy gives me that liberty. Thanks Lemmy!!!
RUSSIA/CHINA PUNCH
You are now dogpiled on and banned from Lemmy.ml and Hexbear
Step on an eggshell about gender identity that rubs someone the wrong way
You are vilified and immediately banned from lemmy.blahaj.zone
Let's be real, your example only works because the mods and admins agree that we should punch nazis.
The big difference is that while you can be banned from one instance, you can still use the rest of Lemmy.
You're free to say what you want, but individual instances can decide whether they want to platform you. I prefer this over reddit-wide bullshit bans.
You’re free to say what you want
But that's my point, you're not free to say whatever you want. Even holding a different opinion can draw the wrong attention in the worst ways. The people who dogpile, vilify, and twist your words see no consequences, and only you end up paying by being excluded from the bigger communities for sticking to your words. You will get banned, and your comments will be scrubbed from the modlog.
What you're saying only works if you're ok with dealing in smaller communities with less traffic, which is a major complaint seeing as how Lemmy is already a small social media site, or you're willing to shell out the money to spin up your own instance, which isn't viable for the people who would love to do that if only money wasn't a limitation.
What I'm saying is that regardless of how one cuts it, speech isn't free here. It's heavily punished and often enforced.
My point is this: SPEECH IS NEVER FREE. Not in the way you mean, i.e. without consequences. Find me one place in the entire world where you can say whatever you want without any consequences. I'll wait.
In your daily life you can also say what you want. People might get pissed at you, refuse to talk to you, break off friendships, get you fired from your job if you go too far, whatever. That's just life. What you say and do has consequences. Even online. Even at Lemmy.
Freedom of speech means your government won't arrest you and lock you up for your opinions, but any other consequences in your social circle, for example, are just that. When you're an asshole, people will think you're an asshole. Sounds normal to me. And if you're surrounded by assholes, they will act like assholes no matter what you say. If an instance has values so diametrically opposed to yours that they end up banning you, then good riddance, no? Edit: E.g. getting thrown out of a Nazi bar is no huge loss.
Sorry, I meant to say that speech isn't as free as people are saying in this thread. We have people essentially screaming "punch a nazi" as if it's a controversial opinion here, when there are other milder opinions that would create some serious outrage and get you banned on a whim.
I think it's universally understood that there are consequences to what you say, and even how you say it, and when. I think that's part of my point. I'm not here to argue for absolute free speech. I don't believe in that.
I'm merely pointing out that the Fediverse as a whole is a lot more policed than people say. It doesn't take much to create animosity.
If an instance has values so diametrically opposed to yours that they end up banning you, then good riddance, no? Edit: E.g. getting thrown out of a Nazi bar is no huge loss.
I don't think that's how it works. You can very much agree with a community the overwhelming majority of the time while getting along fine, and still create some friction by touching specific topics. At least, that's been my experience in general everywhere, both online and IRL.
Oh absolutely. You can't agree with someone 100% of the time. Or well, you can, but it's rare. ;)
You're obviously right, there is no absolute free speech and there shouldn't be, imo. I see Lemmy a bit in the same way I see my real life. Everyone has rules in their own house and if you want to be invited in, you'll have to live by them. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but you can't expect them to keep inviting you - and you're welcome to go to another party where another group of people might not be invited.
Does this mean there are instances where I won't be welcome? Sure. But it also means there are instances where I won't be forced to see/read things I really don't want to see. I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but in my experience it's perfectly possible (with few exceptions) for me to say what I want, as long as I sometimes go about it with a little tact (but the fact that I don't want to be a huge asshole probably helps. ;))
Just because you are free to way whatever you want, doesn't mean, that anybody has to listen or agree with you. If people don't agree with your opinion and they let you know it, they are exercising their own freedom of speech.
And also, nobody owes you to platform your beliefs uncritically. Either you find a community, that wants to engage with you (and you talk to the other communities that wanna engage with your community) or you create your own community (and yeah, that could cost you a small amount of money and time). My point is, you can't just expect people to let you use the resources that they pay for to platform opinions that they find harmful enough to not wanna talk to you again. Saying that someone banning someone from their community is impeading on your free speech is just like complaining that someone didn't invite you to their party because you insulted them.
Disagreeing is one thing, and it's what we're doing, right? But there's a big difference when you're being dogpiled, vilified, harassed, insulted, and strawmanned all because people dislike what you said, even if it wasn't offensive or wrong. Then you get your comments removed and your account banned when you merely defend your point of view.
And also, nobody owes you to platform your beliefs uncritically
But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying quite the opposite, when even the point you're making is calling something into question. These mods aren't even paying for the hosting service.
Saying that someone banning someone from their community is impeading on your free speech is just like complaining that someone didn’t invite you to their party because you insulted them.
Oh, come on, these are open forums where everyone is encouraged to participate at first, and you don't even have to be insulting to get on the wrong side of some people. I have been banned while being perfectly polite and following the rules.
Well, your entire argument is based on very vague anecdotal observations and you didn't mention any concrete examples, so arguing against your points feels kind of pointless.
What were the exact things you said on which communities, that got you "dogpiled"?
And please just be honest, you are not some kind of politian trying to win a debate by any means possible, I see this more as a conversation.
vague anecdotal observations
Sounds like you're just trying to wave me off.
What were the exact things you said on which communities, that got you “dogpiled”?
Don't worry about it. Talking to you seems kind of pointless, too, seeing as you're not even a mod or an admin.
And please just be honest, you are not some kind of politian trying to win a debate by any means possible, I see this more as a conversation.
I'm sorry, what? Aren't we doing exactly that? How am I being a politician? I think you have the wrong idea about me and are trying to steer the conversation back on the track that it's already on for some reason. lol
Honestly, I'd rather not deal with these annoying mischaracterizations. I've said my peace, I think I'm done.
What were the exact things you said on which communities, that got you “dogpiled”?
I'm also interested in the answer to this question.
Oh, I can answer that. I'm not here to revive the topics, as these things usually go with people trying to nitpick, but hopefully it'll appease someone's curiosity.
One time, I made a comment on blahaj zone about gay guys wearing too much makeup and wearing feminine clothes that seemed to be crossing the line into cross-dressing. It had literally happened to me a week prior when I went out with my non-binary friends to the gay bar I frequent, so it was fresh in my mind. They wore skirts, lip gloss, and handbags. It's literally nothing out of the ordinary for them, and I actually appreciate it. The comment was made in jest because, well, they are gender non-conforming and that falls under the trans umbrella after all. Well, I guess someone thought I was being a bigot who was assuming things about gender and made a fuss by misinterpreting what I said. They started demanding that I apologize for my comment as if it were a big deal, and people started replying with their version of events. I refused and tried to explain that it wasn't the case, but they still banned me after someone reported me. I complained that they were being outrageous and had some very unkind words for the admin, who took matters too far and who I thought was being unfair.
Another time, I criticized communism on lemmy.ml. Unfortunately, I didn't know how cozied up they were with hexbear, who crusaded out of nowhere and started dunking on me, even though I didn't think I had said something bad. I thought it was light criticism, and I even explained that I'm not even against it, but they had no tolerance for it whatsoever. The next day, I was under 40+ comments calling me all kinds of shit. A mod (admin?) came across it and banned my account on sight. They even included some bullshit in the modlogs to hide the real motive. This happened about 2.5 years ago, so I don't remember all the details, sorry.
And the most recent one was when I was pleading for people to avoid posting blown-up, zoomed-in pictures of common phobias like spiders without a spoiler or NSFW tag, out of consideration for people who have a lifelong struggle with these things that pop up in /all, explaining that many underestimate how much of an effect it can have. It's hard to explain what happens in the moment, but let's just say that the UIs become less than helpful in a panic when your entire screen is covered with your phobia. It causes more than a jump scare from prolonged exposure, and it's followed by nervousness and agitation that lasts for a good while, which can ruin a good morning. I was called all kinds of shit, berated, blamed, and humiliated. I ended up reporting someone who was breaking the site-wide and sub rules. And who gets banned? Me, with some bullshit in the modlogs about how I'm a "known troll." The mod did end up unbanning and apologizing for jumping the gun, but only after I called them out on it in a different thread.
All of these cases have things in common: the rules were selectively enforced, people either misattributed or overloaded what the other was saying, the comments were scrubbed, and the wrong person was targeted.
Thanks for answering.
I'm completely with you on the .ml and the phobias things, but I think your comments about what gay guys wear is an obviously crass comment, that might get a laugh in your friendship group after some specific experience, but I think you should absolutely know not to post it as a general comment out of politeness if nothing else.
The .ml mods take offence at anything even mildly critical of Russia, China or North Korea (or communism of course): You're not the asshole, they are.
The people taking offence at you asking them to be considerate and put phobia triggers behind spoilers: You're not the asshole, they are.
The people taking offence at you apparently "jokingly" calling a whole category of people out for their clothing choices while you apparently socially enforce gender stereotypes, in a space designed as a safe space for the frequently bullied, frequently misgendered, frequently clothing criticised trans community? I'm afraid this time, you are the asshole, and an apology and retraction would have been better than being defensive, doubling down and arguing that they ought not to have taken offence.
Who were you criticising or joking about each time?
Authoritarian regimes? Nasty. OK to criticise.
People triggering phobias? Nasty. OK to criticise.
Gay people wearing non gender conforming clothes? Not nasty, just different. Not OK to criticise. Not OK to joke about. Gay folk and trans folk have had everything about them criticised and made fun of their whole lives. It was always going to land badly.
Not that you asked for my opinion, and sorry to butt in, but that's what I think.
Step on an eggshell about gender identity that rubs someone the wrong way
You are vilified and immediately banned from lemmy.blahaj.zone
I've never found it hard to avoid offending trans people. Just don't be a dick, be respectful instead.
Well, yeah, I know how to behave. I have a long history of participating in the trans community. I'm not foreign to any of these things.
But none of that matters when the other person misinterprets what you're saying or what you mean, attributes malice to your words, and refuses to change their perspective when you try to explain, while demanding an apology for what is essentially an innocuous comment as if you killed their cat.
The fact of the matter is that, much like the atheist community that I've come to abhor after being a part of it for over a decade, the trans community also has its fair share of crazies. And those aren't even my words, but the words of a trans friend with whom I used to go to these trans events. He also got fed up with their bullshit and would rant at me about them while sharing screenshots. And even now I try to be more patient than him, but sometimes I think to myself, "holy shit, he was right."
attributes malice to your words, and refuses to change their perspective when you try to explain, while demanding an apology for what is essentially an innocuous comment as if you killed their cat.
You see, that's where I find it much easier than you. If I accidentally offend someone that I really didn't mean to, especially if they're in a marginalised group that has had plenty of shit thrown at them for it their whole life, I find it very easy to apologise, back down, maybe try to explain that I didn't mean it the way they read it, but being careful to very clearly restate my apology for the offence I caused afterwards if I do.
You would rather tell them that they were wrong and that you were right, and you're prepared to argue it long and hard. I find that completely unnecessary, because I don't need to win if I didn't mean to beat them in the first place.
I have difficulty backing down in lots of scenarios but accidentally upsetting someone I didn't mean to isn't one of them.
Well, yeah, I know how to behave.
Not how to back down when you didn't mean to upset people, though.
I think you're assuming a lot about what the interaction actually was about, how it happened, and why. And you're assuming that I don't know what being part of a marginalized group that gets constant shit thrown at feels like.
An apology is not in order when the person is making a big deal out of nothing, making shit up, and reframing what's being said to defend imaginary people or abstract ideas. Then add to that malice when things don't go their way. If I had said something about a particular person or something egregious, I would understand, but I said it about a drawing.
I have difficulty backing down in lots of scenarios but accidentally upsetting someone I didn’t mean to isn’t one of them.
You say that because you haven't met the whiteknights in the community who get upset on behalf of others or lose their shit when others don't follow their mental models of gender expression/identity. You know how white people will sometimes cry culture appropriation, and the natives are like, "uh, we're actually ok with that"? Yeah, they exist in the gay world too, and some are vicious and vindictive to the point of being abusive themselves. To me, it sounds like you're defending a Karen.
As I said elsewhere, it would be unusual for a vast number of folk to not contain annoying or argumentative people, but I worry about tarring a whole category by always bringing up examples of bad behaviour and mentioning the category as part of it.
For example: "There was this manager shouting at all the women that they needed to keep in shape to impress the customers, but he was obviously badly unfit and overweight and dressed really shabbily." OK story. But "Fat middle aged guys who don't lift a finger to try to live healthily can be so annoying when they dress badly and then shout at women that they sold keep in shape and to impress clients." Not OK, makes it about the category of people.
But, clearly I wasn't there and I didn't know that you were criticising a drawing!
It sounds like you had a bad experience and whilst I very much don't want to generalise from it, I also don't want to belittle it.
But, clearly I wasn’t there and I didn’t know that you were criticising a drawing!
Precisely, so let's not assume things and speak in ways that try to pin it on me. "You should've apologized and backed down" is rewarding their shitty behavior.
I get your point about avoiding generalizations, but I wouldn't call it a category. This is a pattern of behavior from people who think they're standing up for someone or something, but end up being straight-up toxic by taking social justice to extremes. I've even seen it in person, where some asshole crashed our LGBT+ community group because they started accusing another guy of saying something racist when it wasn't the case. It was needless drama all around because someone decided to be the superhero and save imaginary people.
You usually won't find it hard to avoid offending people with reasonable expectations. Just don’t be a dick, be respectful instead.
But there can be unreasonable in all groups. You just haven't met an unreasonable trans person yet.
Although I haven't either and the depictions I know of might just have been another one of those social stunts, there most probably are a few out there.
Did you downvote your own post?! The scores are +0-1 when I'm seeing it (and the-1 isn't me).
You're right about me not meeting an unreasonable trans person. All the trans folks I know or have known in real life are fantastic people who I have a lot of respect for and have gone through a lot of shit from other people. I think it's worth me doing my best not to add to that and definitely value them as they are.
(Some people who are bullied go on to be bullies, but far, far, far from all, and statistically, yes, there should be some trans people who are unreasonable or bullies, and I think I've encountered an unreasonable trans person on lemmy, but I will only ever criticise the mean things they say or their politics, never their gender or presentation.)
Generally, I don't understand why people think that trans folk haven't had enough criticism, "explaining", social rejection, etc etc etc.
Did you downvote your own post?! The scores are +0-1 when I’m seeing it (and the-1 isn’t me).
Considering there was a 17 hours gap, it's quite possible that someone had the time to read and downvote it before you saw it.
And I get it, there are quite a few people who don't like people that don't perform fake values.
One of the depictions of unreasonable trans people was a video that came up in the beginning of the this trend of trans people coming out + a lot of people getting medical treatments related to their gender identity.
It was some tall, brown coloured, athletically muscular "man" (because he looked mostly like a man, apart from the lipstick, which might as well have been just a man wearing lipstick, to those around him) loudly complaining about something in a restaurant, while the staff tried to de-escalate. One of the staff members then calls him (her?) "Sir", to which (s)he then became melodramatic. Although the chap didn't end up telling others what (s)he wanted to be called, until the very end of the video.
Now, it might have been someone with a genuine problem, that was just not captured in the video, but could also have been someone just trying to gather hatred towards a community that hadn't even been formed yet.
But of course, I have had a depiction of trans(-ish?) people long before the trend started on the US internet.
It is of groups of people (called "ladyboys" by English reporters, but there has been a colloquial term) who are often hermaphrodites, but could also be eunuchs.
The story about them I was told as a child, was that they come in groups during marriages, asking for exorbitant (but somewhat payable) amounts of money and 'make a scene' if not paid. The scene they make would be stuff like public nudity, with obscene looking displays, or going around cursing people (which some person told me that they actually work).
To me, that looked like just some begging+harassment ring. Add to that, an anecdote of one my relatives having been casually molested in public as a child by them, made me think pretty lowly of them.
Those groups seem to have died down now (I think?), which maybe partially because the Government officially recognised the third gender (quite a while ago actually, since I see it in govt. forms) and apart from them getting access to education (the Govt. funded kind, meant for poor people, because if one is rich, being in a minority is just a minor inconvenience as far as "means" go), also getting some reservation quota for certain menial jobs, if they were to not find work normally.
And then there was the depiction of a hermaphrodite in the pretty popular cartoon (anime) "Kochikame", which made me think that Japan had been ahead in this kind of thing, as the depicted person was normally working as an officer.
Did you downvote your own post?! The scores are +0-1 when I’m seeing it (and the-1 isn’t me).
Considering there was a 17 hours gap, it’s quite possible that someone had the time to read and downvote it before you saw it.
Yeah, but on my instance, anything you post automatically has a +1 from yourself, which you must have removed.
Your takes on trans people and intersex people seem to all be from concern trolling media and third hand stories. Trans people are like witches that hand out curses that cause harm? I think your skepticism alarm should be going off.
For the record, molesting children is absolutely not OK under any circumstances. I forget what the statistics are, but I remember that the number of incidents of trans people being sex offenders is far lower than you would expect from the prevalence of trans people and of sex offending in the general population.
It seems to me that you were fed a lot of negative stereotypes of trans and intersex people when you were young, and I worry that you are interpreting finding the lack of evidence of any of this in the real world now that you are older as a change in the world when it might be wiser to take it as evidence that the negative stereotypes were always sensational, overblown and inaccurate.
Trans people are like witches that hand out curses that cause harm? I think your skepticism alarm should be going off.
When I said that - some person told me that they actually work - I didn't mean to say that I believed that part.
Although I understand that I didn't mention that multiple times in capital words (because I didn't feel the need to), just because some of the poor trans people banded with some poor eunuchs to make a cult, of which I have a bad impression, that doesn't mean, I have said impression for trans people all over the world.
I was mostly just giving a list of past events, and they most definitely don't tell my current thoughts, which I feel, the last 2 paragraphs should have explained well enough.
I have once even gone pretty far into explaining how important I consider, not to have prejudice, which even got quite a bit of backlash and a ban from a community. So I am not going to put the effort into reiterating it over here.
But of course, anyone may feel free to label me as anti-trans or whatever anyone may feel like and I may feel free to consider them an unreasonable person.
Yeah, but on my instance, anything you post automatically has a +1 from yourself, which you must have removed.
I didn't downvote my post, I just un-upvoted it. It is possible to downvote it and that would give me a -1 from myself.
Why unupvote it? Do you normally do that? Is it a principal? Or was it just that one?
I started that mainly because it felt weird that a comment I wrote, had a blue up, when I didn't do it.
Now I consider upvoting something as a way to emphasise the post/comment and not upvoting all my comments makes me show a point when I do upvote something that I wrote.
It is really just for myself though, as a single upvote doesn't really matter and others are not really seeing if I am the one that has upvoted it. You can call it a compulsion, I suppose.
Interesting. I like it enough to give it my upvote.
Whoa whoa whoa there.
On Reddit you can say whatever you want.
As long as everyone likes what you say.
Fuck that insipid septic tank to death.
Uhh something more relevant here would be PUNCH A COMMIE!