Tesla sales plunge 40% in Europe as Chinese EV rival BYD's triple
Tesla faces a number of challenges in Europe including continued intense competition and brand damage from Elon Musk's political involvement.
You're viewing a single thread.
CCP subsidizes the absolute shit out of domestic EVs (and many other emerging technologies) which basically forces people to buy them, so it shouldn't be any surprise they're selling them like crazy. Meanwhile conservatives in the US are stripping incentives away.
E: holy shit, the Lemmy tankies are real. I literally only spoke negatively of the US and yet I'm immediately blasted with their default replies; whataboutisms and false equivalencies about the US, in a conversation about the European market.
E2: please read up on Predatory Pricing before replying to me.
You should learn about US fossil fuel subsidies. The US alone pumps almost 800 billion/yr into subsidising the industry. Total subsidies worldwide are around 7 trillion/yr.
China tossing 40 Billion/yr into EV/battery subsidies is basically pocket change.
I have no interest in a pissing match over which country is the worst in the world, I am discussing why China is dominating the EV market in Europe.
China spending 1/20 of what the US does to subsidize cars isn't relevant? Sure thing buddy.
The whole point of all of these "china is only dominating in EV sales due to subsidies" comments is to throw shade on China's impressive progress in clean tech. A contrast of their subsidies vs other countries in the same space, motor vehicles, is entirely relevant.
I believe main goal of China investing in green tech is to show middle finger to oil and gas producers. China has virtually none of both oil and gas and so is reliant on import. With mostly green cars and electricity from water, sun and wind, they will have much, much better leverage in global say.
US fossil fuel subsidies are relevant to China dominating the electric vehicle market in Europe? Sure thing buddy.
I am discussing why China is dominating the EV market in Europe.
They are not, actually very far from it. VW group is. China market share was very tiny, and is now growing. And Tesla has collapsed. So Byd has surpassed Tesla now.
But the big winners are mostly European, and then Hyundai/KIA, and now Toyota has finally made a good BEV, so they will increase their BEV marketshare too of course.
Was gonna say this as well. The Asian brands that have dominated the eu markets still do so. Vw as well, even after their eco blue debacle.
Doesn't the EU balance it out with tariffs?
Those cheap BYDs ain't all that cheap here
Now if EU increased subsidies for domestic EV production, domestic solar panel production, etc... We could really have something great.
Doesn't the EU balance it out with tariffs?
No.
Those cheap BYDs ain't all that cheap here
Yes they are.
Now if EU increased subsidies for domestic EV production, domestic solar panel production, etc... We could really have something great.
Truth there.
Hmm
In October 2024, the EU increased tariffs on Chinese-built EVs, including 17% on those made by BYD and 35.3% for SAIC, on top of its standard car import duty.
Also my friend in the middle east was excited for the BYD Dolphin (I think) for its price and it was... Nearly twice as much here when I looked it up?
BYDs seem cheap because they make budget EVs. Mercedes, Audi, etc, do not.
No one is denying that the tariffs exist. I'm denying that it "balances out". BYD is still way cheaper than comparable EVs.
BYDs seem cheap because they make budget EVs. Mercedes, Audi, etc, do not.
Mercedes, Audi, etc. are established several decade old prestigious brands that don't need rock bottom prices to gain market share.
BYDs don't "seem" cheap. They are cheap.
Yes, they're cheap because the competition is higher end vehicles. BYD's own high end models are expensive too. They don't sell the Han here because you could get EQE or i5 for that amount.
Yes, they're cheap because the competition is higher end vehicles.
No they're not. They're cheap because they're subsidized.
But they're not cheap after the tariffs. Yes, cheaper than German luxury cars, but not cheaper than comparable cars.
Yes. They are. Significantly.
Point me to a BYD vehicle that's cheap and its DIRECT competitor that costs significantly more.
They're pretty expensive if you consider the fact that the Germans know how to make a car, and the Chinese only know how to make a powertrain and infotainment. And they still cost about as much as the Germans for similar segment vehicles, so really you're even getting less for your money.
Good! I‘m grateful that the CCP is stepping in where the West is ignorant. Thanks to heavy lobbying by fossil fuels and car industries we would never have affordable cars in Europe without China. Thank you Xi Jinping for saving the climate 🙏
LOOOOOLOLOLOL have you looked at China's greenhouse gas contributions lately? They don't give a fuck about the climate, they're just trying to drive other countries out of the market.
Chinese carbon emissions may have peaked this year and they’ve deployed more renewables than the rest of the world combined.
That's because they're also heavily subsidizing that industry out of self-interest. That's the "emerging markets" I mentioned above.
Which sounds like a good idea for everybody. Maybe other countries should do the same thing.
I’m no fan of West Taiwan but they’re doing a lot more to decarbonize than most other major economies.
Like always, it's a great idea, right up until China jacks up the prices after they've driven out all the competition and common people can't buy them anymore.
Then maybe western companies can finally compete with them despite being ruled by obligate capitalists.
I think you may have glossed over the bit about jacking up prices. By then other countries be decades behind in development, not to mention competing with slave wages. There's no way. If there was, they wouldn't be doing it. CCP isn't doing this for the environment, they expect payback.
They are subsiding the deployment of clean energy sources?
Good for them. And good for the world.
Sure, it's great for everyone, right up until it's not anymore because they've erased the competition and then jacked up the prices to the point that common people can't afford them, and further driven down workers' wages in the process.
Is no one else familiar with the concept of Predatory Pricing?
Oh no, a country acts out of self-interest! A concept that is completely foreign to the West 😱 At least their “self-interest“ has cheaper EVs for the rest of the world as a result. What are the coeffects of the US defending their self-interests? Rise in facism? Another genocide?
You're moving the goalposts. You were literally thanking Xi for "saving the climate".
Once again, I am not having a pissing match about which country is better, I am discussing the success of electric vehicles from China.
Not really? Still saving the climate 🤔
At least their “self-interest“ has cheaper EVs for the rest of the world as a result.
It cannot be both. Either:
Which one do you think it is?
As always - well under what USA is putting into the atmosphere. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita
That's per Capita, China has like 30 billion more citizens.
Correct and correct.
So then you agree you were wrong...?
No. Your argument is for fools. The argument that a country with a population of 345 million produces less carbon dioxide to pollute the planet’s atmosphere with than a country of 1.42 billion people is nonsense and contributes nothing to any conversation at all. The per capita comparison is what matters, but it’s not used by the people that just really want us to believe “China == bad”. Seems like they’re successful at it based on this interaction, sadly.
Oh okay so basically you were wrong but it doesn't matter. And I've been duped into hating a communist dictatorship that censors all public discourse and has exploited slave wages for the last several decades. Got it.
Per capita is the measure that counts, why should Americans be allowed to put multiple times more CO2 into the air than other people?
You are a stinking American exceptionalist.
They also manufacture the rest of the world's shit. So all in all they're pretty clean for how big they are.
Maybe YOU should give another look at those figures.
Specially the ones relative to the % of new renewables put into production during the last years.
E: holy shit, the Lemmy tankies are real
Yes they are, but in this case you are just wrong. I guarantee you I'm not a tankie, but I think it's pretty clear that USA has absolutely also subsidized electric cars, especially Tesla that has been generously subsidized in multiple ways, also subsidizing their charging network.
On top of that, USA has prevented a lot of outside competition with tariffs.
All in all i am personally sick and tired of Americans always pointing fingers at the Chinese for doing the exact same thing Americans are doing.
Nope you are just wrong and intentionally spreading false equivalencies and making strawman arguments.
Let's put aside for a moment the fact that I only spoke negatively about the US (the discussion was about Europe), and instead focus on the fact that the US has subsidized electric vehicles from around the world to the tune of $1B in an effort to promote the sales of clean vehicles. China has subsidized to the tune of $230B for domestic vehicles only.
Corporations are not as self-sufficient as they claim to be.
Relevance?
US made tesla what it is with a lot of state aid and it still failed.
China won.
You tried to paint it as if only china provides subsidies as some sort of gotcha.
US made tesla what it is with a lot of state aid and it still failed.
LOL what? What makes you say Tesla "failed"? They're an incredibly large and profitable company.
You tried to paint it as if only china provides subsidies as some sort of gotcha.
I did no such thing. You are trying to paint what I said that way as some sort of gotcha. Many countries have EV subsidies. None of them compare to that of those from the CCP.
The US, for example, has paid approx. $1B in clean vehicle tax credits for electric and hybrid vehicles originating from around the world. China? $230B.
Also it's much easier to triple a small number than a big one.
“In Europe”
Sorry, did you have a question?
His point is, da fuck does chinese market have to do with BYD tripling it's sales in Europe.
Europe has massive tariffs on chinese EVs and they are competitively priced with other brands BYD not selling because they are 30% cheaper in Europe
No one is talking about the Chinese market...
You know I can quote you right?
CCP subsidizes the absolute shit out of domestic EVs (and many other emerging technologies) which basically forces people to buy them
This is what prompted the first reply to quote the title "in Europe", hope this helps, have a nice day.
...you know that comment has zero reference to the Chinese market, right? You realize the CCP can subsidize the construction of vehicles that are exported out of China, right?
Then you worded it poorly, also doesn't matter if it's subsidized since as I said, they are hit by tarrifs in the EU so they don't undercut the market, but since you seem to be unable to show complex thought processes I am done with this conversation.
Ps. nice job with your totally not obvious downvoting with your alt account.
I didn't word anything poorly, you just read it poorly.
doesn't matter if it's subsidized since as I said, they are hit by tarrifs in the EU so they don't undercut the market
It does matter because tariffs do not even come close to making them even. Seriously, have you considered at all the economics of this? Do you think the Chinese are such fucking savants that they're able to produce these cars basically for fucking free?
nice job with your totally not obvious downvoting with your alt account.
Oh, honey...
I am not reading that, like I said I am done.
Then stop replying to me.
Just read an article recently that while battery cell cost has fallen and overall capacity have risen, price of EVs continues to rise.
in 2024 in the west they were falling still. Europe stats are strong for all EVs. Should not be Tesla vs BYD. https://cleantechnica.com/2025/07/29/eu-overtakes-the-rest-of-the-world-except-china-in-ev-adoption/ 29% growth in first half of the year, and even higher in July. BEVs+Hybrids is almost 60% of sales. PHEV+BEV 24%, which is much higher than US, though behind China. Total car sales up, while ICE sales down.
European brands doing well. I don't know the prices of every model, but they have to be providing value to be doing so well.
Most of my car friends won't touch an EV still here in the UK because the infrastructure isn't good enough, and those same friends won't touch a Chinese car either. Only a few have tried Tesla and all have got rid. Currently in the UK if you are a company car person you'd be mad not to get an EV as they are subsidised so much, but equally mad to get one as your only personal car as the charging network is shocking still. When here it is MORE expensive to charge an EV whilst out and about than fuel a petrol car something is seriously wrong
EVs are better cars, and most people are happy with them to get another EV in future. You do need private charging solutions to make it cheaper/convenient, and home solar makes it even better economics. Public charging is something you should plan to use a handful of times per year.
Can't charge at home here and no public chargers nearby either...
I'm guessing you are in the US as here in the UK more are against EVs than for them because charging costs out and about are higher than ICE cars and Teslas are pretty much hated, and they have by far and away the best charging network. My wife is disabled and believe me having an EV is way harder then because even silly things like the public chargers being as far away from service stations and amenities means it is counter-productive. We will never be able to charge at our current home either - it is banned in the contract
CCP subsidizes the absolute shit out of domestic EVs
Not really. Metal is cheap. Lithium and rare earths are cheap. Abundance policies for raw materials aren't subsidies. Inflation is low and so are interest rates, and so factories are also cheap. Abundance in robotics too. Highly automated factories make low cost cars.
Prices are not absurdly lower than western cars. Maybe $5k less for equivalent to Tesla, and
which basically forces people to buy them
a key program in China is not from CCP. City governments give licence plates to EVs letting them drive every day. There is a trade in incentive, and sales tax break, still, afaik, but all of that is less than what US had, and EVs without subsidies are cheaper than ICE vehicles, as they are starting to be in the west as well.
You are being downvoted because you don't know what you're talking about, and "everyone's a tankie" for not being as uninformed or propagandized as you.
Not really. Metal is cheap. Lithium and rare earths are cheap. Abundance policies for raw materials aren’t subsidies. Inflation is low and so are interest rates, and so factories are also cheap. Abundance in robotics too. Highly automated factories make low cost cars.
And is even cheaper if someone else pay 30% of what you need to spend to build a car. So you can sell the car 30% less than others and still make a profit (maybe).
It is not a mystery that CCP subsidizes a lot of domestic EVs (among other things like solar panel) to become the dominant player in the market.
What would be interesting to see is what will happen after they become the dominant player.
It is not a mystery how propaganda gets started.
Steel is 1/3 the price as US. Alumnium 1/2. Markets with Futures trading. There's over 300 car companies in China. They are not all directly subsidized. There is state involved ownership (from factory building) in Steel, but they make money at market prices.
There is state involved ownership (from factory building) in Steel, but they make money at market prices.
They make money because they can write off 30% of the cost of the car being paid from someone else, in one form or another.
Chinese car factories DO NOT get a special discount on steel. You can't just keep repeating that without source that is not also just baseless repeating of same lie.
My source is "Il sole 24 ore", a respected finalcial newspaper in Italy.
But I am not saying the Chinese car factory get a special discount on steel. What I am saying, based on the investigation from the newspaper I cited, is that CCP pay 20 to 30 % of the total cost to build a car.
Now your sources.
