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  • You want to wait that long do something? Be my guest.

    Who said anything about waiting? Stop posting and organise that shit. Don't look at me I'm on the other side of the Atlantic.

    Nothing the protestors actually do will move the needle - it’s the extreme overreaction of the fed that will.

    Please look up opinion polling after the Kent State Massacre: It took years for public opinion to shift away from "the National Guard did nothing wrong". For what you say to occur the overreaction has to not just be extreme, it also has to be obvious -- like the Aussie journalist which got shot, that's a good video. Things don't become more obviously an overreaction when cars are burning and shopfronts are deglassed.

    Liberals need to pick a lane - either trump is a dictator who must be removed before he solidifies his hold on power, or we need to conduct ourselves until the midterms so that we can vote our way out.

    I wouldn't argue for either. Both are unrealistic for various reasons and the latter isn't a good in itself. What you want to do is obstruct the fuck out the feds so they fall on their face, that's best done on a level of state and lower administrations. California isn't cooperating with ICE so make sure to have the state's back. Yes, I, an anarchist is saying "have the state's back", fascism is too large a threat to risk over feelings of disgust regarding liberal democracy. Last thing you want is the Governor seeing himself in a situation where he has to ask the feds to intervene to keep (a semblance of) order instead of being able to say "fuck off feds we got this".

    • Stop posting and organise that shit.

      Most of us do both.

      For what you say to occur the overreaction has to not just be extreme, it also has to be obvious – like the Aussie journalist which got shot, that’s a good video.

      Yup, and with any luck Trump will continue with the lack of subtlety.

      Things don’t become more obviously an overreaction when cars are burning and shopfronts are deglassed.

      Those things happen every day in the US. Hell, some sports fans will flip cars after a moderately good football game. Corporatized media will find footage of those things regardless of what the actual protestors are doing, and implicate them with it. Even when counterprotestors are actually assaulting peaceful protestors, Fox news and their many subsidiary channels will find the one shot with an angry exchange that paints the picture and use it to implicate the entire movement. And when they do, liberals will be right there to wag their fingers.

      The good news is that Trump is such a dipshit that he'll send in fucking tanks for just about any goddamned reason, and those are really fucking hard to hide and even harder to justify with a few broken windows and lots of unarmed protestors.

      What you want to do is obstruct the fuck out the feds so they fall on their face, that’s best done on a level of state and lower administrations

      Yea, this is what i'm referring to by saying 'middling around the fringes'. There is no amount of legalese that will slow down an actual authoritarian. You can't run around screaming that he's going to fucking end democracy and then strategize on how to bury him in legal threats. Either he's a dictator or he can be obstructed by judicial paperwork. You can't have a dictator that politely complies with the judiciary, that's what makes them a dictator.

      This is how liberals end up collaborating with fascists: they are so uncomfortable with extralegal resistance that they delude themselves into a belief that working within the structures that are actively being dismantled is the 'only realistic way' to resist against it. What happens when we get to the 'outlawing of rival political parties' part of fascism? We've already crossed over the 'no due process for criminals' line, how many more core democratic foundations do we have to lose before it's game over?

      Not everyone can or should be in black bloc sabotaging ICE vehicles, but pretending as if the usual checks and balances are still functioning is willful ignorance.

      • Yup, and with any luck Trump will continue with the lack of subtlety.

        You're being accelerationalist. Also that wasn't Trump that was a local jackboot jacking off.

        Either he’s a dictator or he can be obstructed by judicial paperwork. You can’t have a dictator that politely complies with the judiciary, that’s what makes them a dictator.

        Who the fuck cares if the dictator complies, what matters is that the overall system complies. There's still quite some inertia left in the gears of the rule of law, people around Trump (not him, he doesn't care nor does he understand) know how to attack that but chances are they're severely underestimating the task. Unlike back in the Weimar Republic, you e.g. don't have a country full of judges considering law passed by parliament to not even be law because law must be passed by the Kaiser.

        Noticed how the Border Tsar backed off when Newson (what's he spelled I don't care) told him "go, come arrest me"? That's not the behaviour of a viceroy of a dictator, that's the behaviour of one who would like to have that power, but doesn't.

        One of the first things btw that the Nazis did was to (functionally) dissolve the states and put them under direct federal control. That's another reason why you want to shout "state's rights" right now.

        Not everyone can or should be in black bloc sabotaging ICE vehicles

        The fuck are you doing that as a black bloc. Those are a lightning rod for police violence so that others can protest in peace, you don't want the sabotage squad to be a lightning rod, you want them to be ninjas. Unseen, unheard, unnoticed. More of a warning west and not black hoodie kind of task.

        And, see, suddenly we're talking black blocs. An actual tactic. One that acknowledges the importance of peaceful protest, at the very least the necessity to separate yourself from the overall crowd, so that liberals can go to baby's first protest because we want them in the street, actually seeing shit, feeling vibes, and not in front of the TV, watching propaganda. Not, as in the OP, "fuck this shit I want to smash things", at least that's the vibes that I got: Justification for a foregone conclusion, not a plan grown out of analysis of the overall situation.

        • You’re being accelerationalist

          I'm not saying "I hope he keeps being a fascist", i'm saying "I hope he keeps being obvious about his fascism". If there's someone running around pantsing people, I'd rather them be doing it in broad daylight while screaming "i'm gonna pull everyone's pants down!" than them doing it in the cover of night where nobody sees what's happening.

          Also that wasn’t Trump that was a local jackboot jacking off.

          Lol ok, granted, but Trump's been boasting about the strength of his response this whole time, so then I guess I hope Trump keeps taking credit for the actions of the local jackboots? Is there a point to this?

          Unlike back in the Weimar Republic, you e.g. don’t have a country full of judges considering law passed by parliament to not even be law because law must be passed by the Kaiser

          What are you talking about? We have a ton of judges who have publicly endorsed the unitary executive theory, and Trump has been publicly threatening the judges who haven't gotten in line. They've unconstitutionally raided multiple courthouses against direct court order and flaunted their willful disregard of their rulings. Yea, the US governmental structure is different, but you're delusional if you think it's functioning as an actual check on executive overreach and abuse.

          One of the first things btw that the Nazis did was to (functionally) dissolve the states and put them under direct federal control.

          Yep. What Trump has been doing in LA with the National Guard is largely regarded as unconstitutional, since the 'legal framework' he's using as justification could be so broadly applied that State sovereignty and the constitutional restriction on keeping a standing army are functionally dissolved (similar to the Nazis who claimed there was a national emergency to dissolve their own parliamentary checks on power). It would basically be up to his discretion on what constitutes 'insurrectionist activities', and checked only by the judiciary (who would rule on its applicability and constitutionality) and congress via impeachment. It functionally does not matter if the judiciary rules it unconstitutional if congress refuses to enforce it, and congress functionally cannot impeach when a majority of representatives are complicit or otherwise held in line by threats of retaliation by the president and his capitalist collaborators. Basically - what the US is experiencing is a multi-layered failure of our constitution to render checks to the President, who is now abusing this failure to solidify his hold on power. Sure would be pretty pointless if we waited until it was a complete constitutional failure.

          The fuck are you doing that as a black bloc.

          Those are two things you absolutely would not be doing if you're concerned about the optics of a resistance movement, which was the point being communicated. And anyway, why wouldn't you be obscuring your identity while committing a felony?

          And, see, suddenly we’re talking black blocs. An actual tactic. One that acknowledges the importance of peaceful protest, at the very least the necessity to separate yourself from the overall crowd, so that liberals can go to baby’s first protest because we want them in the street, actually seeing shit, feeling vibes, and not in front of the TV, watching propaganda.

          Lmao, the intent of black bloc is absolutely not an acknowledgement of peaceful protest, it's an acknowledgement that violence is necessary against oppressive capitalist systems and state violence. But while we're on the point, weren't you just lecturing us on the bad optics of unruly protests, and suddenly you're singing the praises of the premier movement for openly violent resistance? Give me a fucking break. Black bloc is predicated on creating chaos, and famously referred to as 'piggyback' protest because they will embed themselves in larger demonstrations. I'd be happy to discuss good protest practices if you weren't whinging about the "bad optics" of broken glass and vandalized cars, especially while you're simultaneously claiming to support a tactic used to explicitly do those things at protests.

          Fuck off shitlib, go concern troll somewhere else.

          • Lmao, the intent of black bloc is absolutely not an acknowledgement of peaceful protest, it’s an acknowledgement that violence is necessary against oppressive capitalist systems and state violence.

            Yeah you're stuck in the 80s. That type of black blocs wasn't a tactic, it was Autonomous Marxists jacking off. They were starting shit on May Day for the purpose of starting shit. It had the net result of lowering attendance to union marches because, circling back to my very first comment: Not that many people fancy dodging burning trash cans. Name comes from the federal prosecutor describing them as "Schwarzer Block", the translation and weird lack of k came later.

            As a modern tactic the black bloc is, as I said, a lightning rod. Marching alongside, holding still, if police act up they're shielding other protestors by engaging. Yes, it acknowledges that violence is necessary to defend a protest. Defence being the key word, here.

            You're ignoring like 30 years of development in protest tactics. What you're trying to do, we've been there. Doesn't work.

            There's a prayer vigil planned for today, isn't there, what are you going to do? Come there in black, mingle with the grandmas, and start throwing molotov cocktails? You know who does that kind of thing? Agent provocateurs. That's why I've been calling you a fed.

            • I'm not even going to get into it with you about the specifics of black bloc and it's uses, because the point i'm making is the same either way.

              Let's pretend there's black bloc present at the LA protests, exactly like you're saying. LAPD and NG are there, and being advertised as an 'anti-insurrectionist' force by the fed, and if protestors do nothing but stand their ground, jackboots start shooting nonlethals, teargassing and zip-tying groups of 'normie' protestors.

              What is black bloc doing to mitigate this?

              I'm just trying to imagine what you think black bloc is, even by your own definition, that somehow doesn't involve even just optically violent engagement with police. If they're supposed to be a lightning rod to take the heat off normie protestors, how does that not still get used as justification for militarized escalation by police? Even if they're just standing there acting as shields and not actually engaging, it still sure sounds like something that can be used to justify more violent enforcement. A video of a mysterious group of protestors in all black and motorcycle helmates and makeshift shields disobeying police orders for dispersal and lobbing teargas canisters back at law enforcement? Sounds like a riot, better send in the marines. A group of black bloc breaking off from the main protest to break shop windows and lure police away from demonstrators? Sounds like looters and opportunists trying to fuck shit up, better send in the water cannons. If there's a house fire a mile away, media is going to implicate the protest with it. In what world does black bloc somehow not contribute to that media fodder?

              I think you're just a shitlib who enjoys larping as an anarchist. An anarchist would not be blowing smoke for local governments trying to stop fascism with bullshit legal threats and bureaucratic legalese, and they sure as fuck wouldn't be running around complaining about the "bad optics" of clashing with police during an anti-police protest. We're literally protesting against unprovoked police violence and oppression, the police were already escalating before the protests started.

              Again - just fuck off

              • how does that not still get used as justification for militarized escalation by police?

                It splits the whole thing. Liberals can have their prayer vigil while the police is busy. Especially with jackboots, with individual motivation and not "crack down on them and I mean everyone" being the order from above, all you have to do is occupy them, they just want to have fun. Scratch that itch. Use their toys.

                And then liberal media can go on waxing about non-violent protest, about that beautiful prayer vigil, how nice that is. Before, they couldn't: Because there was no clear delineation, the vigil and the riot couldn't be told apart. Thus you enable things getting air time, positive or at least neutral coverage, that would otherwise be swept under the rug.

                And before you go on and say "but the whole US media landscape is captured by capital interest and racists" -- yes. And the capitalists want their immigrants. They don't, in principle, mind speaking of "ICE excesses".

                I think you’re just a shitlib who enjoys larping as an anarchist.

                What I think is the actual issue here is an American incapability to actually organise. Last time you had a civil rights movement with any sort of discipline was, well, the civil rights movement. MLK, Black Panthers, etc. I suggest reading up a bit on what they did instead of jacking off to pseudo-insurrectionist fantasies.

                the police were already escalating before the protests started.

                You act as if that was something that never happens elsewhere. As if others haven't found ways to deal with it. Me saying "Telling everyone to just throw stones is a stupid idea" is not an opinion, it's observed history. It has been tried. It doesn't work. Other approaches work better. But Americans, in their infinite wisdom, will do the right thing only after having exhausted every other possibility. Listening and learning from other people's experience? Why, what's the point, America is so exceptionally exceptional nothing could ever apply to you. Protesting with discipline, diversion, and de-escalation tactics cannot work because you have more people per capita or something. I retract that "fed" and will simply call you "yank".

                • It splits the whole thing.

                  It absolutely does not. Anything that happens in LA is being attributed to protestors, and it's been that way for every protest in the US since before the 1950's. Any protest with more than a couple hundred people either doesn't get covered by US news or it gets implicated with every act of violence and vandalism for the entire city. That's not even me being hyperbolic, US media will even uncritically report on completely unrelated events as if they are a part of a large protest. It's not as if black bloc is a uniform that makes them invisible to protest coverage.

                  What I think is the actual issue here is an American incapability to actually organise.

                  I don't actually disagree, but I think our hyper-connected social media makes it practically impossible to avoid the kind of cross-contamination that soils the optics of even a well-organized protest here. Maybe it's different overseas, but from what I've seen written about it in our media you have the same problem.

                  Me saying “Telling everyone to just throw stones is a stupid idea” is not an opinion, it’s observed history.

                  Nobody has said they should.

                  I've grown bored with this disagreement. I think I'll just leave you with a MLK quote I think is relevant.

                  Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. ... But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again.

256 comments