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Following the other post, which lemmy.ml communities don't have alternatives on other instances?

Following the other thread (550 upvotes and 366 comments at the moment: https://lemmy.world/post/16211417), one of the complaints that people had what that some communities only exist on lemmy.ml and don't have alternatives on other instances.

Let's discuss this and see if we can organize together.

I suggest to have one topic per comment so that is is easier to discuss.

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  • That said, I would like to say that despite the issues with the ML administration, I feel the centralization of communities on WORLD is a far greater and thus more urgent issue for me.

    • I feel the centralization of communities on WORLD is a far greater and thus more urgent issue for me.

      Is it? Is there any level of power tripping similar to lemmy.ml?

      Also

      I suggest to have one topic per comment so that is is easier to discuss.

      • It's not about power tripping, it's about philosophy. When I left mainstream social media and decided upon the Fediverse, decentralization was very much at the top of the list. I was happy to be part of a world where one corporation wasn't in control of our lives. I'm just uncomfortable with the way that people are so eager to foster that in world. We shouldn't have to see them misbehave before we apply what we learned from previous mistakes.

      • I'm a little late on this thread/issue, but I agree with @sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al .

        I'm also inclined to push back on the anti-lemmy.ml stance being pushed here. And to be clear, While I'm on lemmy.ml, I joined before "the migration" when it made sense to join the "main" instance as it then was and I have no particular affiliation with them or their politics.

        Inline with what sabre is saying, I think there's a certain degree of political entitlement and "defederation-fever" creeping into this general sentiment. I think the communists/tankies should be allowed to do their thing without it being an issue, just like any other niche interest/viewpoint that can build a space here.

        I suspect there's some dangerously presumptive politics at play here ... where moderation action is presumed to be "power tripping" mainly because the moderator's politics is presumed to be completely wrong. How about, "yea, that's their thing, it's unlikely something productive will come out of speaking flatly critically about china on lemmy.ml ... their moderation can go overboard sometimes, but their defensive about all of that ... if you want to do that, you'll need to go to a more western instance/community"

        Building different spaces with different rules, vibes and beliefs, while simultaneously committing to inter-connectivity as much as possible ... is basically the idea of the fediverse. It allows us to talk to each other without being stuck in one group's (or corporation's) policies and world-view ... and more idealistically, allows us to see different world-views more clearly as we contrast the different spaces we can be connected to. If everything were on lemmy.world, it'd be hard to see the world-view (ha) that the mods/admins and even majority there impose on the rest.

        That's the idealism, and I think it's very real.

        But the pointy end of the stick is disagreements which lead to downvotes and moderation. That's what enables the creation of a particular space, and needs to just kinda be accepted a bit more.

        That's the part not stated enough IMO ... at some point, if you're going to be committed to the inter-connectivity part, you need to be respectful of the fact that another space exists and can be antagonistic to some of your views. That's fine. On reddit, we'd just steer clear of a particular sub-reddit and maybe disparage them elsewhere. De-federation or targeting an instance as plain bad or wrong is a useful tool that the fediverse provides but which, IME, can easily become over zealously embraced in a sort of dog-pile behaviour. A more useful behaviour, IMO, is to try to work out ways that the fediverse can persist with such antagonism and disagreements.

        Not being surprised that communists are hard on criticism of communist countries seems like a start to me (where, TBF, such criticism is pretty wide spread in the west to the point that I don't blame them for being cranky about it). Being open to the idea that you can get along with same communists on just about any other issue is a good next step. It'd be the same with criticising tech workers on programming.dev or trans/gender/queer issues on blahaj.zone or criticising western imperialism and capitalism on lemmy.world. Though I suspect the lemmy.ml admins could do a better job at sign-posting their politics/policies here.

        These are spaces with particular sensitivities. Antagonising them indifferently is kinda rude at some point. Demanding that they not have their sensitivities is kinda against the fediverse at some point. Interestingly, the admin of lemmy.ml, dessalines, basically said the same thing recently.

        Now, to be fair, I haven't looked into the moderation stuff that seems to have precipitated this conversation and I'm certainly open to the idea that the lemmy.ml mods overstepped (mods tend to do that IME). But my general view is that, as communists living in the west, they've probably come against a good amount superficial criticism and frankly prejudice that us general westerners wouldn't really notice, and so have pretty sharply guarded boundaries around that sort of dialogue. So they've built their own space (well platform actually), that is generally geared toward FOSS and privacy about which many of us have shared interests ... but they also have some pretty clear policies around communism that are clearly very personal to the admins that are better respected than exiled or antagonised.

        Also, none of this is to say everything should be on lemmy.ml. Quite the opposite. Diversify! That's part of my point. But away from lemmy.world too, and with the understanding that part of diversification is enabling niche spaces that can cause friction and said friction isn't, in itself, a problem. Instead, IMO, we tend to get a bit feverish whenever these sorts of things spark up. Anyway ... rant over!

    • I feel the centralization of communities on WORLD is a far greater and thus more urgent issue for me.

      It's definitely a big issue too and why it is a good idea to suggest people start alternatives somewhere other than l.w, as is being done in this discussion.

  • Linux: !linux@lemmy.ml

    !linux@lemmy.world seems quite active, I guess if any people move to it it will become even more active.

    !linux@programming.dev could probably be a nice one too if people want to avoid hypercentralization on LW

    If you know any other, comment below and we can see which one we decide to select as "the one" to avoid fragmentation.

  • Yes, I just posted over there that:

    So if there’s an issue with lemmy.ml, boycott it - unsubscribe, give the other communities on more agreeable instances your time and they will grow and prosper. If there isn’t a relevant alternative start one.

    And this is a key step - identify where there aren't alternatives and start them. It might also be worth compiling a list of the alternatives so people can make the switch.

    It's also worth bearing in mind that Lemmy isn't like Reddit in that you could just passively consume content all day. If there's a problem, we all need to roll our sleeves up and pitch in.

    Worth also mentioning that !fedigrow@lemm.ee is a good place to discuss topics on how we can help Lemmy grow and thrive.

  • Can we make some root cause analysis? Why is it a problem that certain communities are only on one instance?

    Or better, why do communities need some relationship to an instance?

    • Hello Raphael,

      For the first question, I redirect you to the thread linked in the OP: https://lemmy.world/post/16211417

      For the second question, I guess this is beyond the scope of this discussion. Having communities unlinked to an instance would require a complete rework of Lemmy, this thread is just about moving away from lemmy.ml due to some abuse reported in the other thread.

      • What If I told you that it does not require a complete rework of Lemmy, but instead just additional services to use instances as independent "ActivityPub group servers"?

    • I think decentralization is preferable for a wide variety of reasons, most of which boil down to stability and adaptability.

      As for why communities need to be associated with an instance, I think that's a much more interesting question. The first thing that comes to mind is moderation and liability. Ultimately, someone needs to be held responsible if shit hits the fan and somebody hires a contract killing on Lemmy or something. Right now, those people are the instance admins. If you could have free floating communities, the moderators of the distributed community would need to take on that responsibility instead.

      Also how would that work technically? Stuff would presumably still need to be hosted and mirrored on instances, even if technically "unaffiliated".

      • What I am thinking as a possible solution would be to have some type of "community server", akin to email list servers. The admin of the server becomes a "mere" service provider, and those that create communities are then responsible for moderation and that content being hosted there.

        I believe that this would be perfectly possible to implement with Lemmy, so much so that I will add some of this functionality to Fediverser as part of my NLNet grant. The question is: who else would be interested in hosting these fediverser-enabled instances?

  • Copy all the local only communities from each instance .world and .ml separately put in a excel spreadsheet control F search each community

    Feel like that would be easier.....

    EDIT: I counted 50 pages of communities just for .world before I stopped counting. So that's like a lot of fucking work....

    The only way this makes sense to do, is for an admin who has access to the lemmy database. .World database, to do this themselves. I'm assuming with their admin server privileges it would be the fastest most accurate way.

    But then they'd have to manually do .ml bc I doubt ml will do that to help them lol

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