leftist infighting
(this is a sarcastic post meant to highlight the absurdity of some of the “greater good” rhetoric we’ve been hearing, especially around leaving vulnerable populations like disabled people behind in case of revolution, basically accelerationism)
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Fight all you want, by all means, bring those in power further left. But at the ballot box come election day, I don't care if the dem wants to sacrifice puppies on weekends. Guaranteed their Republican opponent has a factory grinding puppies into various consumer products by the millions. And their 3rd party counterpart likely has a greater chance of getting elected to mayor of flavortown than to congress/president (and also still probably kills puppies casually among friends themselves).
Is this system bullshit? Yup. Is it the one we got? Yup. We need to deal within that reality. By all means, let's work to change that system, but for the love of God, let's not shoot ourselves in the foot when our favorite candidate doesn't stand a chance in hell, or the more likely candidate is blatantly flawed (but still better than the alternative)
100%. Prior to Election Day? Get a democratic butt in every race and challenge the people advocating for puppy sacrifices.
Unfortunately we are at a point where only one party can be fixed.
But I was told democrats are worse than hitler
They aren't worse then Hitler. They just kept saying Hitler has a right to defend himself and selling him the gas for his chambers.
Not the best way to win an election.
Do you see us electing ourselves out of this mess (that we elected ourselves into)?
I'm not going to lie, this mess will only end with the sitting congress and judiciary growing some nuts and shutting all of this shit down, OR with a military coup. I don't see either happening. Realistically, we have likely had our last truly free election for the foreseeable future the way this is going. I hope I'm wrong.
I don't think either of those is very likely. The congress and judiciary are made up of people who used their powers to facilitate the current problems. A military coup is also pretty unlikely but I don't really have much to base that feeling on. Trump dying might break the spell enough for some congressional action. Outside of that, I'm afraid that civil resistance is the only thing that will impede these deportations. And I don't mean orderly protests on the weekends.
Organizing takes time, you want to flip a switch and have millions in the streets for a general strike but it's going to take gradual steps to get there.
I'm pessimistic about a general strike in the US. We don't have anywhere near the union participation required, IMO. I'm talking about smaller, ad-hoc groups doing real damage, hopefully with broad (if tacit) support. See what's happening with Teslas as an example. Next should come some serious anti-ICE actions. Sweet username btw.
I don't care if the dem wants to sacrifice puppies on weekends.
How's that been working for you? It looks to me like this attitude brought us Trump. Maybe it's time the Democrats started demanding better.
I say demanding. Sitting out an election doesn't count. The system doesn't change just because you refuse to participate.
I'm really having trouble parsing your suggestion here.
But surely a demand comes with a consequence if not met, right? What is the consequence in an election if not withholding your vote? But you said not to sit it out. Are you arguing in favor of voting 3rd party then? I have to assume that's your intent, though you didn't actually say that.
If that is your position, sure, but the problem with voting third party is that, without the mother of all grassroots followings, no third party candidate stands a shadow of a chance. And there was clearly no such popular candidate for president last election. And providing third parties with support is as bad as just not voting if they no chance of winning. It just amounts to not supporting your preferred candidate that does stand a chance.
That is fucked. I know and I agree. But that is the nature of First Past The Post voting and always will be. It's a lot like the prisoners dilemma. The best possible outcome for you would be to get your most preferred third party candidate, but if you vote for them, and the rest of the voters don't, you split the vote and end up giving your least preferred candidate an advantage instead. But voting your mosr preferred two-party candidate/popular candidate, or least of two evils as it may well be, comes with some negatives, but is an objectively better outcome.
We need election reform to get rid of FPTP and the two-party system with it. That is no small thing, I know, and there is no quick way to get that done. All we can do is advocate for it, vote for other advocates for it, and hope that eventually it becomes a party platform. But until then, we have to live with the reality and vote strategically. Demand better in so far as you use your voice and your dollars to support better candidates, vote in the primaries for the better candidate, but use your vote on election day with the system we have. Unfortunately, that does sometimes mean voting for a bit of evil to save yourself from a lot of evil.
What got us Trump 2.0 was people refusing to support Kamala. Apathy, protest, contempt, indifference, whatever their reasons, they didn't show up and give her their votes. A big part of that is her fault for failing to live up to the standards the left expected of her, for failing to excite left wing voters. Those voters were perfectly justified in not being happy about the idea of voting for her, but, ultimately we are worse off because they didn't. And choosing not to vote at all or to vote third party instead is on them alone.
No, what got us Trump 2.0 was the Democrats running a shitty candidate, on the coattails of another shitty candidate, on the coattails of a shitty presidential run. People were clamoring for a new candidate that actualy gave a shit, and the Democrats told them to sit down and shut up.
The Democrats chose money, war-mongers, and genocide over winning a slam-dunk election. It's not the voter's fault that we're here, as they loudly told the Democrats what they wanted. It's the Democrat's fault for ignoring those demands from their base.
Why should people vote for a party that fights against what they want, when they can vote for a third party that is fighting for what they want?
Buddy this post is about leftists. You are not a leftist. You're a left-leaning liberal. Read a book ffs.
But at the ballot box come election day, I don’t care if the dem wants to sacrifice puppies on weekends
Every time a democrat talks like this they lose votes. "Yeah my candidate supports genocide, but-" stop you've just smeared your own candidate. If you don't have anything nice about your candidate then keep your mouth shut.
Any normal american will see the rest of your comment and think they're better off investing in bullets and silver than worrying about the election. You're basically doing voter surppression.
Or maybe their candidates shouldn't support genocide. It'd be much easier to sell the Democrats as a valid party to vote for if they weren't in support of things like genocide.
Bring them further left how? Why would they need to do anything when you'd vote for them anyways? Every election both parties move a little bit to the right, and you have no choice but vote Dem. What can you realistically do when the only power you have is voting unless you are a billionaire? Your electoral system is truly fucked and the probably of it fixing itself is low, because why would the party in power want to change the system that just gave them that power?
All I can say is leave if you are able to.
Tbh I think the Republicans get us closer to revolution than the Democrats do. I think the only way out is to break the system.
Means to an end, maybe. But do the ends justify these means? And what makes you think a leftist utopia is even the ends of all this in the first place?
Yeah that's the biggest problem is I can't guarantee the revolution would be leftist or that the emerging system would be better than our current system. We need to build a leadership system now.
The problem is, all that fighting, criticizing and finger pointing can be weaponized. That’s why FUD works.
You just amplify any legit concerns until they seem worse than Trump.
I’m convinced most of the leftists on here are either foreign actors or repeating their talking points.
I agree. It's important to not lose the thread or your sense of reality when focusing on internal problems. Internal problems are usually differences of opinion, perspective, or goals, but with the same or similar basic values behind them. It's important to keep those shared values in mind even while nitpicking the other stuff when you're trying to influence the direction of your side. Keep in mind that you are all going generally the same direction while the Right is pulling against every step you take together, and just because your differences among the Left is your focus now doesn't mean it is a bigger deal than your differences with the Right.
The Neoliberals have had 50 years in control of the "leftist" party, and they have only enabled the country to move further right.
They are either impotent or complicit.
This election the Neoliberals will either lose control of the party or we start a new leftist party. If they try to shove another milquetoast neolib down our throats they might get elected, but then the next Trump gets elected after 4 years of impotence and the cycle of the Duopoly continues.
Personally, I think some states are close to center, some are further left and others are further right. Rather than splitting the party and the vote share, we can grassroots organize, get signatures for a ballot initiative, and change the voting system away from First Past the Post. Our voting system is what ultimately prevents viable alternative parties from appearing and is causing the “safe incumbent” neoliberals to win out over “risky” progressive picks since people only get one vote and they don’t want to have their least favorite candidate win over their favorite and their safe choice.
Organizing now matters a lot. If we change even a few more states away from First Past the Post voting, like we did with Alaska and Maine, then third parties will have much more stable ground to actually form and win elections on the state and federal level. I still think supporting incumbents in many cases make sense until we act to change the voting systems. Although rallying around potential candidates which are pushing for change can make a difference in some races.
We can try to change the voting system on the county level and city level if trying to get the state as a whole to change has not been working in your state.
It's always the leftists "splitting the party", never the conservative Neoliberals.
That’s not something I would say or agree with. My statement is separate from that type of perspective and not what my comment was talking about.
Rather than splitting the party and the vote share, we can grassroots organize, get signatures for a
You don't even read your own comments
I did. You’re taking an uncharitable reading of my comment. Nowhere in my comment did I assign blame. My comment is about the need to change the voting system, which enables more progressive and third party wins ultimately. I also included some pragmatism, as I’ve seen progressives in my state struggle to win. I did not say anything about any sort “progressives are too left for the country and party!!!” because that’s not a very nuanced take and doesn’t reflect reality.
Obvious bad faith argument. Voters and gerrymandering from the GOP moved the country further right.
The country will move left when leftists start winning elections.
Which is much less likely now that Trump is in office.
My bad I must have forgotten the part where Democrats, the "leftist" party of unions and ending slavery, wasn't allowed to ever gain power in my lifetime, and that's why they have done absolutely nothing to protect unions and push leftist policy.
OH WAIT A DEMOCRAT GETS ELECTED EVERY 4 YEARS AND THEN FUCKING MEETS FASCISTS IN THE MIDDLE, MOVING US FURTHER TO THE RIGHT.
No one is “allowed” to take power. There is a constant struggle for it. Leftists have been losing that struggle because they don’t get enough votes.
Dems move right because it is a politician’s job to cater to their constituents regardless of their ideology. If there are fewer leftist constituents then the politicians move right.
umm akshually there's nothing they can do even tho they had the presidency and a congressional majority because...
Just shut up man
Another bad faith argument.
You know that “majority” consisted of Sinema and Manchin and in addition to that, most big changes require a super majority.
But you’re just trying to cause infighting.
akshually we should never expect a political party to force their memebers to vote together, unless it's republican solidarity and we should expect that
Yeah you should shut up man
Good point, the Dems stink! They haven't done anything to stop Trump!
I'm gonna vote for Trump next election and until the Democrats start opposing Trump
Lazy troll
If you read theory, you'd know Marxist-Leninists aren't trolls
Well said.