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soumerd_retardataire @lemmygrad.ml

About the defederation with jlai.lu

Hi,

jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy, some user posted this thread 16 days ago : https://jlai.lu/post/11504685, and a flamewar ensued between hexbear and the french, e.g. between happybadger and their administrator here.

Since they didn't really have any reason to defederate initially, they're now adamant that they should defederate only because of this discussion, since it proved that every Hexbear&Lemmygrad user is agressive(, as if jlai.lu users weren't agressive in this discussion as well).
I still find hard to believe that they could defederate on such weak basis, and it does feel like a convenient excuse, but that's what they're saying, ask them for confirmation if you don't believe it either.

They also used a list of post found on /c/MeanwhileOnGrad@sh.itjust.works as if it was representative, but it hardly counts as an argument, what a stupid situation...

They've now pinned this post for 12 days, and the defederation with both Hexbear and Lemmygrad seems unavoidable.
I've known this for more than a week but didn't care that much, yet when talking with them, and especially @Camus here, they/he said that they/he would like to talk to you. @Camus is very patient/nice, and you can look at his number of comments/posts to gauge his influence, probably their most active user(, kind of a french ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆).
Well, to be more precise, he informally asked for some excuses from Hexbear, but my post here didn't reach them, perhaps because of "rtard" in my username(, rtardataire designate someone who's late in french).
However, more than excuses in the name of others, you only have to show him that we're not aggressive(, if you have some time, it won't change much in the end), something very easy/natural to prove for >90% of Hexbear users(, and perhaps >70-80% of Lemmygrad 🙂, it does feel a bit more bitter/serious here, not a criticism).

They have some communities that aren't that far apart from what could be found on Lemmygrad or Hexbear b.t.w., so it can't really be said that they'd reject us solely based on terrorism apologia, supporting Stalin, etc.(, even if their "leftist" admin is against socialist countries because our capitalists said that they're authoritarian).
Staying federated with a french instance would be useless for 99% of Hexbear and Lemmygrad, so if you intervene it'd mostly be on the behalf of current/future french users(, it can be nice sometimes to speak your native language without using an alt account), and perhaps also for Lemmygrad and Hexbear's reputation on jlai.lu.
If you're french, and/or simply nice, and want a chat with them, feel free to do so directly under the post or with @Camus.
(Kinda worth mentionning in passing that, currently, their top two posts of all time sorted by the most comments are the ones cited above about this defederation)

Also, keep in mind that this defederation is unavoidable though, if it doesn't happen now it'll be next year or the year after. As you know, reddit banned ChapoTrapHouse, GenZedong, etc., and we were quickly banned from lemmy.world and others, so we'll one day be banned from other "centrist" instances such as the french one. Just like we'd also be banned/censored by our governement if our numbers grow enough to disturb/'be a threat'.
Furthermore, Hexbear took action, and decided to defederate first without even trying to discuss more calmly. So don't waste too much of your time either(, but please don't go there unless you intent to speak calmly).

Thanks for reading :) !

122 comments

  • Well I would prefer if they did not defederate with us but if they are taking tips from a full-time anti-tankie from one of the more racist instances on Lemmy at large I don't know what one could say to sway them. Look at their list of posts. This post is linked as "Tankies celebrate rpe". The mass rpe story published by NYT was constructed entirely from second and third hand unverified accounts. Regardless of this no one in the screenshot is celebrating rpe. Stuff like this should not be credible evidence for an anti-zionist and anyone who suggests this nonsense as grounds for defederation should not be taken seriously.

    • They're building their own cage with this, but I have no interest of playing architect. Not my problem not my solution.

    • Yea(, my "debunk" was « No comment does that, and I could show you more than one piece of evidence proving that we were at least partially lied to about this(, do you remember that testimony about them tossing around a severed breast in the air like a football ? Or the period when the accusation was made, even though it’s confirmed they only stayed for about ~4 minutes ? And all the other numerous lies about this attack, like the infamous mention of babies in the oven) »), but nobody interacted with my debunks of this list, including their admin 🤷, who preferred to answer me on other grounds, so i don't think that it matters that much to them(, even if it's still a (pseudo-)"argument" on their part).

      I don’t know what one could say to sway them.

      Only waste your time there if you don't have more important things to do, i don't think it'd change anything about their defederation in the long term, and don't really know what you could say, perhaps "hi, i'm an admin of Lemmygrad, do you want to discuss ?", but i don't see what would be the point, you can hardly convince them that we're not agressive and shouldn't be defederated on this basis.
      It's stupid anyway, still worth to make a post, but stupid.

  • I mean I am not sure how this has to do with Lemmygrad, A butt hurt lib was mad that hexbear is very active and that how they have it set up they can see other fediverse posts. They are also mad that hexbear is leftist and has issues with their posting culture, posts something nothing happens, a year later same thing and there is a fall out, hexbear decides to defederate beforehand, and that situation is over.

    Then we have the ever looming fact Lemmygrad is likely next, but lets be totaly honest here, Lemmygrad is always on the chopping block, because we are not liberals so we are either going aganst the interests of the bigger platforms or we are counter to what they have been told is acceptable, and so will kneejerk ban. Its annoying yes but not much we can do for it.

    I get it sucks that they are walling us off from there users, however we cannot do much, best you can do is make an alt that just sits there. Honestly the most concerning thing I keep seeing is the Constant push to change platforms from the Lemmy platform to something else because the lead devs are communist, I basicly never see this done for any other political alignment in open source, however there is a bigger and bigger push for it here.

    also why is the french instance a luxemburg domain?

    • also why is the french instance a luxemburg domain?

      jlai.lu is a play on the phrase "j'l'lai lu", which is a shortening of "je l'ai lu" meaning "I read it".

      Just like Google's use of a belgian domain to shorten the YouTube url to youtu.be

    • I get it sucks that they are walling us off from there users, however we cannot do much

      Does it suck? Personally it sucks more to breathe the same air or exist in the same spaces as these libs. Let them wall themselves off, eventually they will be walled off from the vast majority of humanity that is looking on in disgust at them- and then hopefully in time that wall will close in, and those who cannot develop the human decency to leave their wretched spaces will go straight to the dustbin of history.

      • Look we cannot get to the point where libs are a thing of the past and disliked if we do not put the groundwork in to educate and convence people now, we have to put that effort in, and I get it it is not always fun, nor is it easy, it is both easier and more fun to ignore them or yell at them but that does nothing for movement building. By walling them off, not only does it make our interactions with them harder and more limited, it also will prevent the curious, the ones who are thinking about it from coming over here and checking it out.

        It is very neglegent to cut someone off from learning or even interaction because they are currently a liberal, because they are the ones we need to bring over to this side. they are the ones we need to teach, and you cannot teach when you only hold contempt and no sympethy. That attitude is only going to keep us from ever liberating the working class

    • I mean I am not sure how this has to do with Lemmygrad,

      Some users in the "flamewar" were from Lemmygrad as well, so their pinned post is to defederate from both Lemmygrad and Hexbear at the same time. I know that it's stupid and look like a convenient excuse.

      it sucks that they are walling us off from there users, however we cannot do much, best you can do is make an alt that just sits there.

      Apparently, after what happened it was up to us to send some kind of "delegation" in order to calm things down if we didn't want them to defederate. It can still be calmed down(, for a while), and i kinda hoped that some people here wouldn't agree with my pessimism, and talk with them instead. Their post is still pinned after a dozen days and they haven't seen anyone so you or someone else would probably be welcomed, by asking "Why do you want to defederate ?" for example. They'll answer that it's because we're aggressive and authoritarian but there's probably room to discuss about it.
      It's worth adding that i don't personally care that much either, even if a defederation/rejection is always annoying, if only because our posts won't be displayed to them. An instance based on nationality and not ideology should try to stay neutral/welcoming, i think.

      Honestly the most concerning thing I keep seeing is the Constant push to change platforms from the Lemmy platform to something else because the lead devs are communist, I basicly never see this done for any other political alignment in open source, however there is a bigger and bigger push for it here.

      It's only a partial answer, but i've began an app for Lemmy a few weeks before Sync went out(, should be out next year, if anyone want to throw ideas b.t.w. i'm taking), and i can already easily circumvent the defederation on it by fusing the "output" of two accounts. So other apps may easily copy it, and defederation wouldn't be a problem for those who want to go through the creation of another account in order to bypass it, as long as jlai.lu users have heard of Hexbear and Lemmygrad they'll only have to add an alt to their main account in order to change their feed, without the need to switch between alts, even if that'll only be a partial solution since it doesn't affect the experience "by default". I can also already create a group of tabs that'll display the feed of an instance or a group of communities(, and even the posts//comments of a (group of )user.s you want to follow), so that'll solve another annoying problem of isolation that prevent us from easily reading/'being exposed to' the feed of another instance.
      There's also the possibility of changing the Lemmy software to enable a defederation à la carte, with the option for each user to opt in//out of the defederation, that'd be even better(, there'd still be the need to attribute a default value though).
      However, i've also seen this push so yeah, 'you're right'/'i agree' obviously.

      • Interesting that we where suposed to "send a delegation" normaly that requires notice, and I do not remember any notice being given, aswell as you could just talk to the admins. This feels super self important, when from what I saw it was a few people saying mostly incorrect things... someone from hex pointing out that the ring leader was a nazi sympithiser, and then a few going over to defend themselves.

        I am sure if you asked jlailu they would say they are being nutral, we are outside of the status quo and farther from it than nazis, so as they keep putting it they see us as "Dangerous extremests" I do not think we are but that is the preseption that is going to get sturred up, agian communism is either aganst there intrests or the intrests EVERYONE is telling them they totaly have, so agian we are scary.

        Lemmy already allows user choice to defederate or not, and it does not need to be instance wide, that is not good enough because some of our ideas can get to some people, it needs to be everyone who cannot see it

  • I have to admit, I feel disappointed whenever this community attracts negative publicity and it has nothing to do with me, even if it is only somebody taking something that I said so blatantly out of context. For instance, I eventually retitled this thread because 'economic boost' sounded less incriminating than 'boost to capitalism' and after I published this reply, I realized that it sounded kind of mean, yet I was surprised that I was unable to find anybody talking about it.

    tous les régimes ML et associés terminent de la même façon, défendus par des tankies prêts à excuser des génocides tout en écrasant n’importe quel mouvement demandant de l’indépendance et de l’autodétermination, quitte à s’associer avec des fascistes qui ont, in fine, le même but politique qu’eux.

    This is basically just a minor variation on the trope that we merely hunger for power (rather than wanting the power to end hunger). I've been around the block enough times to know that there is no evidence that I could possibly provide that this anti-Bolshevik would not dismiss out of hand, though sometimes I do wonder… would a generic anticommunist ever have the patience and interest in at least reading one of my many threads on fascism? Since I recognize fascism as a manifestation of capitalism and anticommunism, I suspect that the answer is 'no'.

  • I'm seeing quite a few misconceptions here and just like to clarify things a bit.

    Jlai.lu is a French speaking instance with a majority of French users but also some Belgian, Canadian and Swiss users. The Luxembourg extension is pretty much the same as Redd.it being Italian, with the exact same pun used.

    The instance is (European scale) left leaning, with a few leftists being very active (anarchists, communists, socialists...) and a majority of libs, most being libs, some left-leaning libs, a few econolibs. Fascists are immediately kicked out when identified, right-wingers usually end downvoted when explaining their views but are allowed. For context fascists are currently 1/3 to 1/2 of voters in France, depending on the cutoff you use, the whole right pushing to fascism for fear of socdem trying to be social.

    An ass launched the idea of defederating hexbear for personal reasons, which turned into a few hexbear users becoming a nuisance on the thread.

    The instance admin opened the idea of defederating here and hexbear as a discussion. I don't know why lemmygrad was mentioned at all. Hexbear defederated from their side.

    Votes were cast on people reacting to the ass-thread more than real checking as there are very few interaction between the instances.

    Jlailu admin stated that they were thinking about the issue and saw the vote as food for thought but not as a direct decision maker to defederate. Admin is against defederation. At no point is it deemed unavoidable. A few users have tried to point to "problematic" content, usually ending on whatever (didn't spend the energy cross checking, every instance has shitposts for who digs, admins having a life offline).

    Not much to add except that translations are bound to hurt. In France :

    Communism is seen as either a slur from people not knowing what it is or as an achieved form, but still usually including some actors of transition (Lenin, Sankara) but excluding others (Stalin, Xi). Don't ask why, that's not the point, it's just that's how french language evolved and the context needed if you start to dig.

    Also, the French socialist party has become right-wing soc-dem (left wing socdem being LFI). The french communist party is... Something, not sure it's leftist (closest to communist/Marxist/socialist parties would be NPA or luttes ouvrières). So the words really need context.

  • Il y a quand même un comble quand on vient défédérer une instance "autoritaire" et se dire non-autoritaire. C'est pas autoritaire de forcer la déféd ? Ce n'est pas intolérant d'empêcher les gens de parler entre eux ?

    Comme quoi le gauchisme transcende les pays et les moeurs pour s'installer dans toutes les voies, le chien galeux qui marche aux côtés de Lénine à ses dépends, comme dans le poème.

    Je tiens quand même à rappeler que la politique de sinicisation au Xinjiang est reconnue par le gouvernement Chinois, que ce soit culturellement ou via l’import de colons Hans.

    Ah bon depuis quand ?

    Pendant ce temps nous on continue de fédérer avec toutes les "vraies" instances lemmy, c'est elles qui défédèrent.

    • Il y a quand même un comble quand on vient défédérer une instance “autoritaire” et se dire non-autoritaire. C’est pas autoritaire de forcer la déféd ? Ce n’est pas intolérant d’empêcher les gens de parler entre eux ?

      Fun fact, c'est hexbear qui défédère, pendant que nous on a juste une consultation pour le moment, hein. Consultation qui implique les membres de l'instance, donc par définition c'est pas autoritaire non plus.

      Fais un minimum d'effort d’honnêteté intellectuelle stp.

      Comme quoi le gauchisme transcende les pays et les moeurs pour s’installer dans toutes les voies, le chien galeux qui marche aux côtés de Lénine à ses dépends, comme dans le poème.

      sa fé réfléchir

      Ah bon depuis quand ?

      Jsp, je vais pas faire un cours d'histoire mais si on cible que la Chine contemporaine, je dirais depuis Ma Fuxiang, mais ça s'inscrit dans la politique impériale de la dynastie Qing, où l'envoi de colons Han dans des territoires d'importance stratégique était la norme.

      Politique toujours en cours dans plus ou moins tous les territoires chinois, notamment au Xinjiang et depuis un peu plus récemment, Hong-Kong. Pour Xinjiang t'as eu plusieurs versions de réglementations locales dans les années 80 et 90, et la dernière mouture, centrale, elle, est connue chez nous comme la "Stike Hard Against Violent Terrorism" de 2014, qui continue la même chose en un peu plus rapide, mais a "juste" ajouté les fameux camps.

      C'est tellement vieux et assumé que google sinisation ou sinicization te donnera plus ou moins toutes les pistes pour te renseigner si t'en as vraiment quelque chose à faire. C'est une conséquence direct du fonctionnement clanique et dynastique de la Chine impériale depuis des millénaires.

      Pendant ce temps nous on continue de fédérer avec toutes les “vraies” instances lemmy, c’est elles qui défédèrent.

      Je comprend pas, personne veut parler avec moi alors que moi j'ai pas de problème pour parler avec eux. Ça doit être le monde entier le problème.

  • Since OP pinged me, and is also banned since for this attempt at brigading/shit stirring and overall bad faith posting, I'll do a quick recap of what actually happened.

    Some jlai.lu guy got manhandled somewhere on the lemmyverse by a hexbear user and opened a thread on the Meta community of jlai.lu, used to discuss the instance functioning.

    Pretty much told him to fuck off, that's internet for you, I don't intend to defederate.

    Some hexbear and grad user then, for some reason, ended up in this thread behaving like monkeys shitting in their hands and throwing it on people.

    Most of jlai.lu users then, when confronted to these people, wanted nothing to do with them and wanted us to defederate.

    Since it was not one guy anymore and me having something else to do in my weekend to handle children on the internet, opened a vote to see if it was a general request or just a few people wanting to defederate.

    The vote is still on-going, and hexbear defederated us because I guess they didn't like people challenging their bullshit and hurting their circlejerk.

    The list of things listed in the thread is the list of reasons I was given as a reason to de-federate. I didn't check because I simply don't care since I'm against the defederation in the first place. I gave my standing in the different threads and in separate comments, as long as what I think of tankies and overall defederation.

    I, as a long time internet user, even participated in the flame war because I think this is funny, but actually replied to people actually wanting to discuss.

    I'm still not for defederation because I think this is a nothingburger that ended up a subject entirely because of your (grad and bear) own making, but since there is no positive or interesting participation between our instances mostly due to the language barrier, I won't veto a defederation if the overall community don't want to bother with your toxic members.

122 comments