Your explanation of federation that it "works like email" will be misunderstood
The linked post shows how most non-tech people's understanding of email is very very different from most of the people here.
If you want to get non-techy users, then there is absolutely no need to even use the word fediverse or to try to explain what any of this means. If you want to help a friend get onboard, just send them a link to sign up on the same server that you use, or a nice general purpose server. That's it. They sign up, they use it, and THEN they can start to learn about fediverse shit if they care to.
Yes. You can use it without understanding how it works behind the scenes. At some point, they'll run into a situation where it is helpful to learn some part of how the fediverse works and then they can ask about it, generating more content and interaction along the way
"you know how you can't talk to someone on Twitter.com from facebook.com? But you can email from your @gmail.com to someone with an @yahoo.com address?
That's the difference, federated social media is like email in this way."
I'm mostly sure even my elderly parents understood it when I said it...
till they throw you the curveball that they can indeed talk to someone on twitter from facebook.
I don't think it matters. the specific ways in which email services work or are used are not what the analogy is supposed to explain.
it's supposed to explain how two people who log in to different lemmy instances is different from logging into Facebook and MySpace, or Twitter and Threads.
"how does it work? aren't they different sites?'
"you know how you can have a gmail and someone else can use an outlook email but you can still send emails to each other"
done. even 70 year olds would get it. problem solved. easy, approachable analogy.
Exactly this. The second you utter the word "federation" you can see people's eyes glaze over in real time. The email explainer is good but it really needs to be a short sentence and that's it
I now after many years of living understand most people don't care or even want to understand how anything works. It completely baffles me.
Everyone I know says I'm smart but nah, I was literally in special Ed classes in school. I'm proven slower than the rest, but I am just curious and want to understand how things work which no one else does. It blows my mind how uninterested people are in the things they use everyday
You might be slower than the rest, but still smarter than them. Hare and turtoise kinda situation. Nothing wrong with being a slow learner, the willingness to learn is where it's at.
I am just curious and want to understand how things work which no one else does.
It depends on how interested you are in a subject. Everything is interesting, but you may not find everything equally interesting, nor do you have time to know everything there is to know about everything.
For instance, if I fly somewhere, I have a general idea of how wings create lift. But if you try to explain it to me in detail, I'll tell you to piss off because all I really want to do is travel from A to B.
But I know plenty about other subjects that I'm really into, that I could bore you to tears with and you'd end up punching me in the face if I tried to explain them to you.
It's not okay to not know anything about something. But it's okay to know enough.
That's fine but when people use technology every day, their phones, computers, ect.. and not know what a web browser is that's a whole different level of ignorance. Not just computing tho also cars. I barely know much about cars but I understand the idea of an engine, like you said it's okay to know enough. If something breaks on my car I look it up on YouTube and learn a little more slowly. Some people tho will drive a car everyday for their entire life and not understand what a piston even is.
You sound like someone who would enjoy The Secret Life of Machines. I've never met anyone else in real life who wanted to watch it with me, for the reasons you mention.
I'm really disappointed with Lemmy's idea of federation: all it is is a bunch of servers mirroring one another, but the user accounts are server-bound. No jumping instance and taking your identity seamlessly with you.
This isn't really Lemmy's idea of federation, it's just ActivityPub, the underlying protocol. Having a mechanism for jumping servers is unfortunately quite complicated and it isn't clear how it should be done or if it is even possible.
Lemmy does allow you to export and import your settings though, so you can kinda do it but you lose your history.
ActivityPub spec allows content-addressed IDs, just nobody implemented them and now it's too late.
This is exactly like email though.
You have a gmail account that is tied to google. You have to login to gmail to access your email but you can email anyone in the world. Some people use different providers so they have different email addresses.
If you want to change providers there is no easy way to do it. You can use imapsync or export to pst and import to new provider and so on, or maybe your new provider gives you tools for importing mail from your old mailbox but it's not a feature of email protocol(s) to do this.
In my experience, the majority of people doesn't have the slightest clue how mail works. Somehow you type it in and provide it with an address into one of the three indistinguishable fields that are titled "To", " CC", "BCC". And by some black magic it either appears on the screen of the other person. Or it doesn't. That's about the amount of knowledge.
So comparing something to this is kind of meaningless.
Yup, and people younger than a certain age think email is as archaic as the pony express.
Hilariously, fax machines are as archaic as the pony express. They were invented around 1850.
Abraham Lincoln could have literally sent a japanese samurai a fax.
In my country, people above a certain age think sending an email is impressive
And we still don't have any worthy successor. In contrast to the pony express.
As a younger tech person, I definitely don't get a lot about email. It's old and weird and arcane and half it's features that match newer services seem to be built on top of hacks that are enforced through convention alone that will break if I decide I like to format my titles a little differently. Third party clients work, but the main providers, Gmail outlook use some proprietary api to make sure their own works well while everyone else gets stuck with shitty imap. There's endless little incompatibilities. It all just feels like delerict tower held together with miles of duct tape. Oh and I still haven't found a good answer to why calendars are so tied up with email.
Ironically it is often that way with Lemmy as well, outside of Lemmy.World. You write up a post, maybe it makes it to its destination, maybe it does not (for several days, after which point extremely few people will see it when it suddenly appears, but down among the older content no longer listed as "new"), maybe people write comments into it, maybe they don't but who even knows if you aren't able to see any of them to be able to respond.
This is definitely a monthly or almost weekly occurrence, even if not quite a daily one, though it depends strongly on what instance you are on.
Also, whether it makes it to the destination or not depends on which server you try to view it from.
And I haven't even begun to start into the defederation artifacts yet!?
Right. Learning Lemmy and the Fediverse takes some effort. The onboarding isn't super smooth and flawless... I think we all know this. I'd still like to see a few design changes. I think generally we're headed in the right direction. Albeit kind of slowly.
I haven't noticed any federation hiccups in quite some time. There was some debacle with two updates. But since then it's been forwarding posts within seconds for me. At least on the last two instances I used.
Me, explaining how Lemmy is similar to email…
Don't explain anything, there's literally no point. Why are nerds so insistent that people understand technology?
Just tell people to make an account on any instance, whichever one you like best, and let them experience federation. Even if they never really understand what is happening they can still use the service. It's not like any of them understand how email works, and yet they all use email. Understanding is worthless. Stop being nerds.
Why are nerds so insistent that people understand technology?
Because technology forms the basis of the online environments we inhabit, and gives us the tools to tell how, say, our data is stored and processed.
If you're going to get in the water, it's probably a good skill to be able to swim. If you're going to drive a car and don't have the faintest idea how the engine works, you'll be at the mercy of manufacturers and mechanics.
The solution to your issue is not that everybody should conform to the lowest common denominator of technology literacy, but that the general internet user should get a fucking idea of the environment they navigate.
Stop being nerds
Never.
Nerds don't just want to teach people to swim. They want to teach them about hydrogen bonds and the mineral contents of the water, the processes of water treatment, and the technical requirements for a functional pool.
Nerds don't just want to teach people to drive. They want to teach them about the engine, the drive train, the underlying transportation infrastructure, and how to change their own oil and tires.
If you want people to swim or drive or use the fediverse you skip all that shit. Normal people do not care.
Stop being nerds.
I think one of the main reasons why the fediverse didn’t blow up much bigger than it did over the past couple of years is because of the weird and insistent need to explain how it works from every possible angle with seemingly every possible analogy. It’s information overload and it only confuses the shit out of people who do not care in the slightest how it works.
Hmm… maybe if we tell the nerds that they need to add an “abstraction layer” to their explanations that might motivate them to simplify?
People have been using email since they were five and all modern lives depend on it. If they don't understand federation they will just be confused why they can't see the content and leave. "I didn't understand it and it didn't work" is one of the more commons reasons I've seen on Reddit for failing lemmy
Wife had to do this the other day. She catches me trying to explain and convince tech basically recommending something with an open door to say no or disagree why you like it. She says just tell them to use it and if they love you they will.
And it's true. I have my extended family on signal.
Work on it, don't only complain.
This is how you get people whining about there being 8 different "Politics" groups, and insisting they should be allowed to erase the identity of the hosting website.
The patchwork nature of the fediverse is baked into the technology. If people don't at least have a basic model for how it behaves, then they're just going to get pissed off at it and leave.
Ypu don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive, but you have to understand how driving works, both from the perspective of operating a car, and from that of the conventions of the road.
"Just find a pretty car and hop behind the wheel" is bad advice for everyone.
Strong agree. Just tell people to go to feddit.org and call it a day
So Cars are designed & built by nerds, so are you gonna stop driving cars ? Imagine telling people that you shouldn't bother trying to learn
I'm telling people that it's okay to be a normie.
And it is.
Car nerds can be car nerds to support the normies who can only drive.
Don't explain anything, there's literally no point. Why are nerds so insistent that people understand technology?
All people understand Ohm's law now. It took only 150 years of explaining.
as soon as you say "make an account" their eyes will glaze over. if not, as soon as they hear "instance" their eyes glaze over. if not, as soon as they hear "whichever one you like best" their eyes will glaze over.
I don't expect non-tech people to ever come to or care about this place, or Mastodon.
Part of social media is predation. There is a draw to Facebook, even if it is the endless sea of bullshit emanating through it, the marketing of products and echo chambers.
people would love to be entertained by our intellectual discussions!
They watch Adam Sandler movies, lad. We've already lost.
It's a draw. We have no draw, other than being DIY NPR (now with 5% more tankies). It's a draw, but it won't draw them. It's not what they care about.
They all complain about "Muh Open source UI bad" Ok then what is considered a good UI/UX according to you lot (Not you lot in particular I'm not trying to start any beef here)
& how does one decide that particular UI is User-Friendly ?
One button to expand pictures similar to RES would be a big improvement
Built-in keyword filters are another one
And of course, multi-communities
Those are cool ideas honestly
A UI can be measured in a bunch of different ways, most of which should be measured and balanced against each other.
I recommend this video essay, where a UX professional (formerly at Microsoft) took over the UX for the FOSS music composing app Musescore and shares a lot of the lessons learned along the way: https://youtu.be/Qct6LKbneKQ
a user friendly user interface is one that the user is already familiar with. It is subjective, determined by the user, and will vary from user to user.
Think about the placement of face buttons for an xbox controller vs a ninttendo switch controller, specifically A and B. The function of menu accept is always on a, and menu back is always on b, but the physical placement of those buttons are opposite on the competing platform. Now think about a playstation controller, and where it puts menu accept and menu back. The glyphs are different, but a nintendo player will find it intuitive while the xbox player will be confused.
Juat copy what is most used so people dont have to learn anything new ever again
I think people can handle a simple series of instructions, like (1) download the Voyager for Lemmy app, (2) click the middle button, then click...
What they likely get confused about is the plethora of choices, especially when they aren't even sure that they want to join yet.
At the risk of bringing up unwanted drama, 100% of the time whenever I mention Lemmy to someone, they have admonished me for having done so. But putting myself into their shoes one day, I did a Google search (🤮) for "Lemmy", and aside from the singer, the top hit to an actual instance is... surprisingly to me, lemmy.ml. Next I note that the default search method there is "Local", not "All". NO WONDER they were telling me how politically "extremist" it (Lemmy) is! They see NONE of the posts from Lemmy.World, sh.itjust.works, etc., unless they are submitted to a community on lemmy.ml. Instead, what someone would see by default is "death to landlords" and all the other posts promoting the violent upheaval of Western society, as ofc capitalism is to blame for literally everything (well I mean...), except somehow only the Western variant is in the wrong and everything done by the likes of Russia or China or North Korea is absolutely fine.
Here's an old example I just happened to have handy:
(setting aside truth or falsehood, it definitely has a bias to it, as in both sides were equal, and yes this was prior to the USA election)
The #2 search result by DuckDuckGo btw is Lemmy.World (the #1 is ofc the musician:-), probably bc it has ~80% of all Lemmy users on it, so that is appropriate.
We need to put ourselves into their shoes, not our own as if we were ourselves on the other side of that conversation, but appreciate how they will approach the issues. And the methods used by more mainstream people differ from ours.
Either that, or accept that we are strictly another forum community used chiefly by Linux users, and that we will never be more than that.
What they likely get confused about is the plethora of choices, especially when they aren’t even sure that they want to join yet.
Then we need to provide them a single recommendation
While we are talking, a small update on lemmy.cafe: I liked it for a few weeks, but the images stopped showing up properly since a week: https://lemmy.cafe/post/9986198?scrollToComments=true
I now use feddit.org as my default recommendation
Oh no!
That link that you sent me, are you still able to see that post? For me it shows an error, like what happens when a post is deleted by the OP, but I wonder if that is what happened or if lemmy.cafe has switched its main announcement community to be local-only, and if that requires a lemmy.cafe account to read, b/c otherwise I don't even know what their main announcement community would even be. It might have gotten deleted entirely and/or merged into graybeard, or statecraft, but both have not had posts for a long time (unless they did and whatever problem is affecting the database lately has messed up new posts in it as well).
Well that's sad.
If I were you I would ask feddit.org to switch their default sort behavior from "Local" to "All" so that it will be a more welcoming experience for the wider Fediverse looking to see memes and such from the likes of Lemmy.World etc. and not just itself.
It at least defederates from 2 of the big 3, though it also defederates from lemmynsfw.com, which I don't know why so many people (from Reddit in particular) insist on having that in their same account but I bet some people will be resistant to it, but oh well.
May I ask though: why not use lemmy.ca as the default recommendation? It has 4.5x the userbase as feddit.org (the same MAU, just 4.5x more accounts total, so I guess a bunch of lurkers or inactive accounts, but it is at least the same size), 5 admins, already has its default sort set to All, doesn't defederate from lemmynsfw.com, and seems to take user feedback e.g. this recent thread questioning whether to refederate with hexbear.net but based on user feedback deciding overwhelmingly to not. And especially if people in Reddit tend to be from the USA, it would be geographically closer and not confusing to e.g. first describe things in German, then in English.
Hopefully the issues with lemmy.cafe are temporary, but on the other hand communication about such matters is just as important as not causing them in the first place, plus if it's been a whole week and it's still that way... that does not bode well for the future.
To clarify why lemmy.ml is one of the first results: it was the first Lemmy instance. It's only the second most populated instance, but I imagine the relative age of the site (5 years, as opposed to lemmy.world's 1 year) has something to do with it.
It also sucks that join-lemmy.org, which comes up before lemmy.ml for me, defaults to recommending random instances. It really ought to recommend making your first account at lemmy.world and switching to a different instance after you've gotten used to the platform. I know it's not ideal to put all our eggs in one basket, and there is a reasonable effort to move communities away from both lemmy.ml and lemmy.world, but for new users it might be kind of confusing seeing people talk about sh.itjust.works and lemmy.dbzer0.com and programming.dev as if they're more or less interchangeable
I get the age requirement - as you say it makes sense - though it makes less sense why it isn't up to date information. Anyway regardless of the why factor it helps me understand where people are coming from when THAT is what they see, which is different than what I do, or what I would see if I personally (who would use DDG rather than Google) would see if trying to look up such a thing today.
I also get why they would want to see an example of a working Lemmy instance, before looking at a website called "join Lemmy" - they aren't interested yet in JOINING Lemmy, or information related to that, until they have seen what(ever) Lemmy IS first.
One correction: lemmy.ml has now fallen to fifth place in terms of MAUs (Monthly Active Users), with only 2165 compared to Lemmy.World's whipping 17195. The second place is lemmynsfw.com with 3288, so definitely a steep drop-off from the #1 spot to all others, then #3 lemm.ee with 2996 and #4 sh.itjust.works with 2392. So even just with respect to these top 5 servers alone, ignoring the entire rest of the Fediverse, lemmy.ml makes up at most 7.7% of the Fediverse, which falls further behind with each server added to the consideration (including the one I am on now:-).
I sorta get the historical argument, but isn't that a bit like saying that an actor is alive bc at one point they were, despite how they are currently dead? Or saying that Russia has not invaded Ukraine, bc at one point that may have been true, though it has not remained true for quite a number of years now. Or saying that Nixon is the President of the United States of America, bc at one point that was legitimately a true fact (yet is not a current one). Google results just seem so hopelessly wrong these days, telling people to put razor blades into their pizza and the like, and that if you stand more than 6 feet away from a nuclear blast you'll be fine to survive it safely. There are REASONS for all of how those answers came about, but it definitely highlights how they - and therefore by extension Google results (tbf the AI ones in those latter cases) - are incorrect. But that is what mainstream normies are most likely to use regardless? (Even if they ignore the AI garbage)
Also, those instances sorta are interchangeable?:-P Somewhat at least, which is by design of the ActivityPub Protocol that anywhere you are, you can access mostly the same content. That said, I like where you are going with that: in one sense they are, if not "the same" then at least they are interconnected, yet in another sense they each have a distinctiveness to them, with unique local content (which if marked "local-only" cannot be accessed from the outside, without an account on that specific instance) making them different from all others. And distinct admin+moderation practices, and account creation procedures, etc.
Less like email and more like a fleet of pirate/free trader ships each passing their messages to all of the others (excepting defederations), but remaining distinctive entities unto themselves with their own flairs and styles. And anyone can spin up their own ship and tap onto the Fediverse network to become one of them.
If you tell someone that fedi instances are like email providers and that your instance is transfem.social, that creates three expecations in your audience:
1)The main, or possibly only, way to access your fedi account on a desktop is through the transfem.social website.
2)The main, or possibly only, way to access your fedi account on a smartphone is through the transfem.social app. This app is completely separate from the apps that could be used to access a fedi account on another instance.
3)The primary difference between transfem.social and other fedi instances is the UI of the website and app.
Frankly, I don’t think this is that big of a deal. First introduce them to an instance, then once they figure that out, show them the apps and other ways to access that instance.
I honestly think it stills explains it pretty well. Most casual users will not download a specific client and will be fine with the whole idea of an instance being tied to its user interface. It still explains pretty well that it doesn't largely matter what instance you sign up for and that any instance can talk to (mostly) any other instance, just like with email.
So yea, I still think it's a good analogy. It's not perfect but yea, that's to be expected from an analogy.
I'm pretty tech minded and I have no idea what the hell any of y'all mean when you say it's like email because I don't know the technical details of how email works. I just know how it's used.
You think non-tech people are gonna understand that? They're just gonna assume it is email, in the way it is used; not how the shit works under the hood.
When I make the analogy, I just mean the fact that a Gmail account can send emails to a Yahoo account or any other email provider. In the same way, a Feddit.dk account can talk to a yiffit.net account. There is not a single company controlling email and there is not a single company controlling the fediverse. That's really all there is to the analogy.
They don't care how it works under the hood. They just want to know what I'm laughing at.
You think non-tech people are gonna understand that?
Yes becase they're not looking to understand the protocol behind federarion anymore then you dowbt understand the protocol behind email, so they will grok better then you how it works bybusibg the email allegory, sending from gmail to outlook works for them.
I also use the phone network as another allegory if their eyes do glaze over, i can be with one phone company and phone somone on another companies plan. They have little idead of the prorogation of radiowaves etc that makes that all work.
I have seen people not think someone with a gmail email could email to someone with a yahoo email
I have also seen teachers who teach ICT be confused when seeing a email that isnt one of the popular ones
I really think there is no problem here. There is one side that screeches, "We need more people in Lemmy! Lemmy is too obscure and hard to use! We need better UX and less techno-babble when people are trying to sign on!" We also have the opposite side saying, "Fuck the normies! I want my federated server @tek.know.kult for the most austere obscurantists only!"
Let's be real, guys. If your federated server is weird and obscure, the normals are not going to really encounter it, and they're not that into all the federation beef. They want to go to lemmy-website.com, put in a username and password, and fuck off to look at funny memes and rage at news stories.
I would say I am at least on the right side of the bell curve when it comes to tech literacy, maybe even the top quartile, and I only sort of understand how the Fediverse works, and no offense guys, I don't really care that much. I looked at Reddit for the funny memes and to rage at news stories, and when they took my favorite app away (Sync for Reddit), I couldn't be fucked to get advert-aids on the official app, so I jumped ship. Lemmy is just a bit less engaging, just a bit less addictive, and frankly I'm perfectly happy with that. Huzzah for having a bit more of a doomscroll-life balance.
People will come along with FOSS as well as CS options for joining the Fediverse, things like Threads and Voyager and BlueSky, and the culture of Lemmy will shift likewise. The great news is that with Federation, it will be easy to create islands of autists and weirdos to keep their purity cults as funny as they want them to be, and I think that's beautiful.
I know how email works but it sure didn't help me understand the fediverse.
It's just one thing in email servers functioning that is similar in the fediverse, everything else is not similar. It is just confusing to compare the two to anyone not yet knowing how the fediverse works IMO.
"It's like the postal service!"
"It's like the internet!"
Just say it's like reddit (or a social media) but free and open and anyone can have/make one, or use an existing one. For free.
/Rant off
Same. I don't know why people keep trying to use the email example, personally I found it too much of an abstract concept that doesn't necessarily work for Lemmy.
If I knew someone used Reddit then I'd just say it's like Reddit but instead of a single authority in charge of Reddit, anyone can take the Reddit software and host it themselves, and if you create an account on one site you can still subscribe to subreddits on other sites and vote and comment on posts.
Personally I disagree with the statement, first off, I don't see an alternative explanation offered. the point is an easy analogy to give them rough concepts. looking at the problems listed in the OP.
Gmail users believe the only ways to access a Gmail account are through the official web client at mail.google.com, and the official Gmail app for iOS and Android.
First off there... so the web client off the bat.... what's the problem there, that we aren't burrying them with "oh if you like you can use alexandrite, or one of 30 other web clients, and then tell it the instance". The point is we're trying to reach out to the non tech savy. If their assumption gets them to something that works, then there isn't a problem, just as not knowing that they can install an e-mail client to check their gmail, isn't stopping them from using gmail.
Now the andriod/ios clients, that is the one drawback, you do have to tell them the name of one of the apps, and tell them to pick the website they made their account on from the dropdown. It's not a huge deal but it is an extra step. If the goal is to reach out to the non tech savy though, the goal has to be to minimize the steps as much as we can.
Then it goes on to say people are picking instances based on moderation politics etc... Lets face it regular people don't... and they don't care. Really like 2% of people actually hit points where moderation is a visible thing to them. usually because they are on the edge of a political side.
I didn't pick my email my employer did. Other then work ionly use email for account verification, password reset and trqcking shipping. No really i have only sent a dozen or so emails not related to work.
One way to help the feediverse is to drop federation. No one uses that word no one knows what it emans. At best they will be "so its like Star trek".
Lol, I saw "drop federation" and thought you meant the concept itself, not just the word. "Well that doesn't make any sense" I thought. Got it now.