Are you anti or pro genoside?
Are you anti or pro genoside?
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Don't "both sides" genocide. The victims are not less bad, because they are not bad in the first place.
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Let me just start by saying that the overwhelming majority of victims from Israel's genocidal warfare are innocent civilians, many of which are children.
However, the other side of belligerents in this conflict is Hamas, who are unequivocally terrorists. Yes, Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people has pushed a lot of people towards Hamas, and yes, Israel has made sure that Hamas has received ample funding and support as a way to weaken the Palestinian Authority, but that doesn't make Hamas less bad.
Hamas hasn't just terrorized, kidnapped, raped, and murdered Israeli civilians, they have waged a campaign of oppression and terror against the Palestinian people in order to remain in power. They are a symptom of the national, regional, and geopolitical situation that exists in that region, but they are horrible nonetheless.
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It's a deliberate strategy. They can't say they support the genocide anymore but they can still push the idea that it was sorta deserved
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I agree, obviously. I think when people try to "both sides" this, as it seems, they're not talking about victims of genocide. Hamas, as the Palestinian leadership in Gaza, have been receiving literal briefcases of money from Israel for years; you can't call them [the governmental and especially military organization] victims of Israel.
Not being victims doesn't make them automatically bad. You might argue that armed resistance is necessary to oppose occupation and ethnic cleansing, and that's a legitimate point. I'd say that Hamas, in this case, being the lesser evil, is still an evil, but it doesn't only exist to be evil: it exists to fight the bigger evil. Perhaps there's a not-evil way to fight the occupying power, I don't know. But what Hamas (& other resistance organizations) have been doing is definitely not working for them. Some might say that it's backfired massively1.
It depends on how you choose to view this conflict. It can be a conflict of Israel against Palestine (or Israel against Gaza), and in this dichotomic view, the moral option is obviously supporting the Palestinians, Hamas included. But this view doesn't necessarily represent reality. It can also be a conflict between people who want peace2 between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, and those who don't, on whichever "side" they happen to be. In this case, it's imperative to support (actual, not fake) humanitarian foundations in Gaza, and organizations in Israel trying to fight this from within, but oppose escalation in armed conflict. By this view, the conflict is of Israel as a country (a government and military), not a nation, and Hamas as a military, not a representative of the Palestinians, against the Palestinian population3.
My point is that this thread is just arguing over terminology. There is a genocide, we oppose the people facilitating the genocide, and we support the victims. It doesn't get much more complicated.
Footnotes (yes I used footnotes in a lemmy comment):
1: The one doing the genocide is obviously Israel. Blaming Hamas for bringing this on their own people is disingenuous, but on the other hand, you can't say that they didn't know this was going to happen, especially with this Israeli government.
2: Peace is complicated, but for a start we can consider people who oppose genocide, ethnic cleansing, military occupation, and illegal settlements. The optimal solution is the one-state solution, which not everyone accepts, but you work with what you have.
3: There is some effect on the Israeli population, though it's negligible compared to genocide. Both Israel and Hamas have to maintain some level of support within their respective population, but Israel being way more powerful and the support threshold for Hamas being lower result in a relatively smaller impact on the Israeli population. -
What kind of future does that boy have under his current leadership. What kind of opportunities does Palestine provide these children and what is their stated goals as a government around this conflict again?
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Is there only one side?
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I like to watch the people watch the rocket launching, if they don’t move fast enough they get hit by counter battery. Truly awful 🤣
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I mean your side uses these corny propaganda pictures like the average observer hasn’t been watching for 40+ years: show the pictures of rockets launching from crowded markets and backfiring on friendly civilians 🤣🤣🤣
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I'm on the fence. It's a high fence, with a great view of both sides, but one side requires me to put my theater glasses on first and promises that the final act will be to die for. The other side seem to be missing actors, so are less interesting.
I really don't know where to stand either, since the seating situation in the gallery requires you to only look down and makes it hard to see anything at eye level
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to be fair hamas is kinda very bad.. the palestinians obviously not tho and isreal is still doing a Genocide
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Yeah Mama's is still very bad
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Yeah they send children out to throw rocks at tanks. Worst monsters on the planet. But continue to swallow their propaganda because it's designed to make you so emotional that you don't ask "what kind of person sends their kids out to throw rocks at tanks?"
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Genocide*
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So you're on the grandma nazi side?
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*Grammar
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Oma says she's sick of the untermensch.
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I find these bullshit false dichotomies to be beyond annoying. Stop trying to kill nuance, it's not either or. Two things can be bad at the same time with different extents. Acknowledging this fact allows you to take in more context and actually form a principled point of view rather than a reactionary one. Lemmy is filled to the brim with pissing matches that boil down to "WhAt aBoUt ThIs GuY?!?!" because everything is oversimplified and reactionary.
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Yup... and whoever lets their kids throw rocks at soldiers are fucked up people.
A "fair fight" means more civilians die. Non-violent resistance would gain the Palestinians a lot more than sending their children out to throw rocks at tanks.
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I've lost my mother, my brother, my father is disabled and I'm stuck getting water and trying to make sure we have food; all because men in tanks like this one have destroyed our way of life. Fuck em, I cast throw rock.
Seriously, no. No the parents are not fucked up, their lives have likely been scarred in one way or another by these people. The ones who are fucked up are the ones who should never have been there in the first place.
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What I said doesn't just apply to this conflict, it applies to everything political these days, and this mentality is so prevalent that it's actually starting degenerate our societies.
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That child is no angel.
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...yet
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Damn you for making me laugh at this.
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Savage
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To be honest, if the rock thrower has more than 20 points of power level, that tank is cooked
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Conservatives and Israelis are tankies now
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I mean pretty sure they're the one owning the tanks
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I'm locking this post. You guys can't keep it civil and just keep reporting each others comments back and forth. I'm going to start doing temp bans for abusing the reporting system if you can't figure out how to fight your battles without asking for someone else to come in an censor your opposition.
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Sending your kids out to throw rocks at an army is bad parenting.
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Weak doesn't always mean morally good. Using children in military is against Geneva convention.
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What does the Geneva convention say about bombing children
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It is also against geneva convention. "1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."
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resistance to occupation is a basic human right,
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Palestinians can learn a lot from the ANC's struggle for freedom in South Africa. They were also violently oppressed, they also had their land and property taken. They also became puppets of foreign governments with the goal of destabilizing the region
What changed, was that they realized they could never win an armed conflict and targeting civilians did nothing but intensify the oppression and undermine international sympathy for their cause.
They switched to a campaign of unarmed resistance, worked internationally to break the regime's support base and partnered with whites who also wanted the oppression to stop.
Israel will never stop this conflict, so long as they can use fear against their own citizens to remain in power. Palestinians need normal Israelis on their side.
So long as the pictures show a child vs a tank, their movement is working. But when it shows armed palestinian men attacking Israeli civilians, they are losing.
Palestinians, like the ANC, need to keep violence out of their movement, especially the use of religion to justify that violence.
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This comment show lack of understanding of how Israeli response to peaceful protests.
It is wild to me when you expect anything from someone who is willing to shoot and kill children on live tv. By the way I am not talking about Gaza after October 7.
You can check out all the other peaceful protests where soldiers were shooting their knees, or respond with violence.
"You shouldnt scream when you get raped, instead call the police after and hopefully they will arrest him if they found enough evidence" OP probably....
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If OnLy ThEy UsEd PeAcEfUl PrOteSt..
That is the event that radicalised me
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You misunderstand unarmed resistance. You want to shout when raped, as loud as you can.
The key thing is you can never ever take the offensive and attack israeli civilians.
It is brutally unfair, but you can never cede the moral high ground, not even for a moment.
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nice try, but mandela resisted being released early, because he felt violence is neccesary in his case to end apartheid.
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Why do you think he changed his mind?
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They switched to a campaign of unarmed resistance, worked internationally to break the regime's support base and partnered with whites who also wanted the oppression to stop.
So BDS?
They switched to a campaign of unarmed resistance, worked internationally to break the regime's support base and partnered with whites who also wanted the oppression to stop.
Nope! I mean they did these things, as are Palestinians, but the armed resistance campaign only stopped as part of good faith negotiations with the Apartheid government. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_weSizwe. The armed resistance and peaceful resistance campaigns worked together and supplemented each other to eventually bring an end to Apartheid in South Africa, exactly as we're seeing in Palestine right now.
Palestinians need normal Israelis on their side.
80% of Jewish Israelis don't feel anything when shown pictures of starving Palestinians, so "normal" Israelis are clearly in the minority here, which is why peace and kindness alone have not worked and will never work. If you want more numbers that will make you lose your faith in humanity, I recommend this. Note: The link doesn't contain the 80% thing, but I can provide a source for that if you want. Point being: The things you're calling for are happening, but for a variety of reasons they're not enough, so they need to be backed up with armed struggle.
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80% of Jewish Israelis don’t feel anything when shown pictures of starving Palestinians, so “normal” Israelis are clearly in the minority here
You went a little bit overboard here with the misinformation propaganda, mate. If you wrote something like "60%" I would've probably believed and moved on. But the 80% is such a ridiculously high number that it can only exist in the mind of someone who believes that Israelis are the Devil Incarnate.
So I went looking. The only source I could find for anything close to what you're describing is the Israeli Democracy Institute's research
First of all: I love how you people always claim that "citing Israeli sources is stupid" when it comes to Palestine, but you're all good using it when it suits you.
Second of all: that "80%" number...
The number itself never shows up in any relation to hunger, but let's assume you rounded it up from something. Let's look for those bloodthirsty 80% of Israelis who feel nothing when shown a photograph of a starving human...
78% of Jewish Israelis and 22.5% of Arab Israelis think that, given the circumstances of the fighting in Gaza, Israel is making efforts to avoid causing suffering to the Palestinian population there.
Hmm... Not quite. What about:
The majority of Jewish respondents think that, given the circumstances of the fighting in Gaza, Israel is making efforts to avoid causing suffering to the Palestinian population there
Ahh, no there too.
Maybe something about "being troubled" by what's going on?
On a personal level, the majority in the Center and on the Right (Jewish respondents) say that they are not troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza. On the Left, the majority reported that they are personally troubled by these reports.
Ah, damn! Nowhere near 80% of the entire population, is it? Let's look further - if they're so bloodthirsty, they'll clearly be happy about what the settlers are doing against Palestinians in the West Bank, right?
Regarding violence by groups of settlers against Palestinians in the West Bank / Judea and Samaria, the findings are remarkably similar to those for the previous question—the largest share of respondents think that the authorities are acting too leniently
Oops! They're against that... Damn! OK, let's look further, it's got to be there somewhere, right?
Well, no. You're just full of shit as there was - fucking obviously - no "showing of pictures of starving children.
The closest we get is the answer to these questions:
Which of the following claims is more correct? (%)
- Even with the restrictions imposed by the fighting, Israel could significantly reduce the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza, but chooses not to.
- Israel's actions are restricted by the fighting, but it is making substantial efforts to avoid causing unnecessary suffering to Palestinians in Gaza.
With the responses being:
- Among the Israeli Jews: 15% chose (1), 78% chose (2).
- Among the Arab Jews: 66.5% chose (1), 22.5% chose (2).
The closest thing we get to what you claimed is this question:
Personally troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza (Jews; %)
Where 70% of Israelis on the Left side of the political spectrum say... they are absolutely troubled by it. 32% of Centre and 6% of Right are, which - while horrible - is nowhere near "aren't bothered by a photograph of a starving child"...
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Normal israelis used to be more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But regular missile attacks and air raid sirens desensitised them in recent times.
Israelis nearly got rid of Netanyahu, but attacks like Oct 7 galvanised the public behind him.
I lived the resistance of the ANC in the late 80s. Umkhonto weSiswe was a lot less prominent by then since the change in strategy. The remnants of that movement nearly derailed the entire process.
What I am advocating for is that in all similar situations around the world, armed attacks on the civilians of the other side have NEVER resulted in success. Not when there is a power disparity like this. They need to be removed from the strategy.
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The struggle in South Africa wasn't a struggle against Genocide which has always been Netanyahu's goal and is in the final stages of being enacted. If and when the international community comes around, there will be no one left to save.
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Before this latest conflict, they had a lot more in common.
Netanyahu wasted no time capitalizing on Oct 7 to enact his plan for staying in power.
It really has been a failure/success of propaganda and international politics.
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77 years of being attacked from all sides. What would be your limit? It seems like every time Israel gets fed up with the attacks, the wars. the rockets, and the guerilla attacks. They lose their shit and start to push Gaza into the sea. Then America or NATO step in and persuade them to compose themselves and stop. Every time Israel is attacked they fight back and gain more land. I ran out of any compassion for the people among the aggressors in the 90’s. It seems like they would have done something about it by now rather than being complicit.
The only way there is going to be any peace in Gaza is if Hamas is driven out of Gaza for good. Hamas could do the Nobel thing and fuck off, but they’ve spent decades using the people of Gaza as their shields while Iran and the other surrounding counties use Hamas as a tool to strike at Israel. I’ve stopped caring. This is going to end. One way or another. I say let Israel end the war. They seem to be really good at it after all these years of practice.
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77 years of being attacked from all sides.
Because they've been committing all manners of atrocities against Palestinians for more than 77 years. Name one war Israel fought (edit: clarification) which started by them being unfairly attacked. If there are many, pick the most egregious example.
It seems like they would have done something about it by now rather than being complicit.
Every time Israel is attacked they fight back and gain more land.
You mean every time Israel finds an excuse to attack they get more land? Yes, that's how colonization worke,
Complicit in... what? Resistance? Trying to gain the human rights they've been denied for generations? What the heck do you want them to do instead?
The only way there is going to be any peace in Gaza is if Hamas is driven out of Gaza for good.
Cue, the West Bank.
PS: I didn't comment on all the misinformation because it doesn't excuse what you're saying even if it was true. Oh, and also: Reported for genocide apologia.
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Guess what. Israel exists. Before they owned the land someone else did. And someone else did before that. And on, and on, back to the Palaeolithic era. You and I arguing in some obscure corner of the internet no one will ever see isn’t going to bring about world peace. Israel fought to exist, and they’ve succeeded at it. The aggressors who keep attacking them after they have been told to stop… they may not exist much longer. They sent paragliders into Israel and killed people two years ago. You saying what is happening today is an atrocity and me saying is self defense isn’t going to change a damn thing. All we are doing is rightly stating our opinions on the situation. None of them are likely the true facts. The fact is that victor is going to write the history. I’m saying it’s going to be Israel.
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You mean 77 years after the displacement of 713 000 Palestinians in 1948 and the Israeli operation codenamed "cast thy bread" in which the main objective was to poison all wells in Palestine to ensure there's nothing to return to and secure the much needed land expansion. Or did you mean October 1956? Oh wait, no... Israel was the aggressor there. More land. And like any typical abuser, they'll take on the role of the victim whenever anyone calls them out on their shitty behaviour.
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The only way there will ever be peace in Palestine is when Israel is abolished. Israel could do the human thing and fuck off, instead they commit systemic acts of terror, rape, and murder of innocent children, women, and men.
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"BuT tHeY aRe CoLoNiZeRs AnD iSrAeL sHoUlDn'T eXiSt!"
Cool. So every country is gonna give back their land to the indigenous peoples they took it from, right? Right?!
We can start with America and work our way down the list from there.
Someday people will figure out that all of this, all of it, everything we have, is built with the blood of innocents. And we only have three options now: start repairing these relationships through kindness, grace, and good works; watch one side wipe out the other; or fuel the ongoing violence in perpetuity.
That's all we have left and I personally prefer the first option but so, so many people opt for 2 or 3 that it makes me numb.
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BuT tHeY aRe CoLoNiZeRs AnD iSrAeL sHoUlDn'T eXiSt
Cool. So every country is gonna give back their land to the indigenous peoples they took it from, right? Right?!
First: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Back. Second: Israeli oppression isn't limited to the past; it's an omnipresent facet of Palestinian life even when there's no full-blown genocide going on. Israel shouldn't exist because it's presently a colonizer state actively doing colonization; at least states like America have evolved past their settler colonialist roots to some extent. Third: What kindness do you want the West Bank to offer Israel? Tell me in detail what you're proposing here.
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We can start with America and work our way down the list from there.
I wish. And while we're at it, tell the British Museum to return the stuff they stole.
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The only way there is going to be any peace in Gaza is if Hamas is driven out of Gaza for good.
The people of Gaza, even those who have turned to violence and extremism, are native to that land. The majority of Israelis are not. So the fairer solution for the conflict would be for the settlers to go back wherever they're from, and leave the locals alone.
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you mean 77 years of your neighbours being upset at you for constant warcrimes and a genocide?
yhea, that's a you problem
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Yeah, no.
False, and factually so.
Biden's permanent response to anything Bibi ever wanted was: "You got it, boss. How high do you want me to jump?"
Israel is an issue where both sides are equally bad. Part of me hopes one day someone manages to slip a nuke into Gaza, because that's the only way Israel and the US will ever consider peace.
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I think the two sides here are Israel and Palestine, not the two major US parties.
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Some people define the two sides as Hamas and Israel which is awkward cause I can't criticize Hamas for wanting to fight the Israelis but I can criticize them for being a Right Wing organization set up and funded by the Israelis to weaken the PLO and Palestinian unity.
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Yep, in hindsight I see I misinterpreted it. Thanks for the correction.
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You are one messed up person for thinking so easily about someones life.
I'd almost hope you encounter yourself in a time of need to understand just how wrong you are
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That's not the same bothside. Obviously both sides of the US are on the same side.
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You're right. I misinterpreted it. My mistake.
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Thanks for trump, you succeeded.
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If the posts here had their country's flag next to them, things would be clearer. 🤷
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This doesn't even have to be about Israel and Palestine. Plenty of "conflicts" throughout modern history have looked like this
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Removed by Moderator — Modlog
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Ah yes, because naturally all Palestinians are rapists and avid supporters of Hamas, including the 50 000 children who have been killed in Palestine since the start of the current war. No member of the honourable and valiant IDF would ever rape anyone or in any other way mistreat any human being. In fact, rape does not exist in Israel. It is a nation incapable of doing anything remotely evil or immoral.
PS: You're allowed to write the word "rape". It's a word.
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There is no excuse for the sexual assaults Hamas performed on Oct 7
There is a long history of Israeli sexual assaults on Palestinian detainees
Thus, as long as we're going for metaphors, this falls under the same umbrella as "Sugar rockets aimed indiscriminately at civilian areas vs. Knowingly blowing the fuck out of a hospital with precision weapons"
They're both bad, but there is a vast difference in scale. One is throwing rocks, and the other is a fucking tank. Both need to be stopped, but one is a mite more severe as an immediate threat in need of being addressed. If your response to one side killing a thousand innocent people, and the other killing fifty thousand, is to condemn both sides equally, you don't give a fuck about innocent people.
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If you are planting the seeds of hatred by administrating an apartheid state; It's not surprising you are going to harvest hate; Death to the Boers and death to the IDF.
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Repeating falsehoods to justify genocide makes you a participant.
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That has nothing the do with the genocide. If we're comparing all crimes past and present Israeli vastly wins in the sexual assault section, and if we're comparing only ongoing crimes then there's no such thing on the Palestinian side. Which is it?
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Dip?
Also, you’re allowed to say the word you censored. The way you censored it doesn’t spare anyone from the experience of reading and understanding it. It’s exclusively to get around filters, which the threadiverse largely lacks. If you want to be sensitive to the needs of others, just pull it under a spoiler. If someone chooses to open the spoiler, that was on them.
Below is the syntax used to create spoilers
:::spoiler words that you click The words that pop out :::Others had to opt in to see what I wrote. They cannot be blindsided by it. Replacing a letter is inadequate or unnecessary, depending on what you were going for
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Dip?
Deceptive imagery persuasion.
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"The sister of the guy in the tank gets 1,000,000 dollars in American taxpayer money to write slurs into bombardment shells"
There; I fixed it for you!
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False equivalency much?
A woman being raped is a horrible crime, so I guess that justifies murdering and maiming hundreds of thousands of women and children because it happened?
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Oh there is no evidence of Palestinian systematic rape so maybe stop with your hasbara.
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Hey I don't like genocide but also don't believe anything should be done to stop it. /s
Removed by Moderator — Modlog
Please just got back to Reddit.
There was no mass rape in October 7th, you're replicating Hasbara atrocity propaganda "Nayirah's Testimony" style. You're a supporter of genocide.
These things excuse genocide? Is that what you're saying?
Got any pictures of 77 years of apartheid, and 2 years of genocide?
How about all the times the Israel Occupation Force (IOF) raped Palestinians?
Or how about indiscriminate rocket attacks by Israel on Gaza, systematically annihilating hospitals, universities, and other institutions.
You are a reactionary that conveniently chooses to ignore history. You are a fascist enabler, and should be prosecuted.
I really wonder why your genocide apologist cunt still isn't banned really tell you everything about lemmy.world admins