Petition: Defederate from exploding-heads.com

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxoftolerance

Read up. Then punch a nazi. Don't need that shit anywhere in society.

Slight tangent: It's been a recurring post on tumblr and mastodon that the Paradox of Tolerance is resolved when you consider tolerance to be a social contract rather than a moral standard. In that case, if someone does not uphold their end of the contract than the contract doesn't apply to them.
If you do not tolerate me, I do not have to tolerate you.
As Nazism is based on intolerance of other views, there is no requirement for tolerating Naziism.
The same applies to terfism. "Trans-EXCLUSIONARY radical feminism" is the acronym, it is a philosophy based on not tolerating trans people, and therefore there is no need to tolerate them.
Contrast to say, furries, who are weird but who are defined by their enthusiasm for something rather than an exclusion of other interests. Furries, as a group are covered under the tolerance social contract.
While it's crucial to oppose harmful ideologies like Nazism, we must be wary of how we define such harmful groups. If we broaden these definitions arbitrarily, we risk encapsulating people who merely differ politically, diluting the term's significance and unjustifiably alienating individuals. In doing so, we inadvertently shrink our own communities, polarizing society to the extent where a moderate viewpoint might be mistaken for extremism. Right-leaning communities fall into this trap as well, resulting in fragmented realities where each group exists in its own echo chamber. This division deepens societal fissures and undermines moderate views, which, in my belief, are grounded in reality and thus instrumental in achieving balanced discourse.
- Soooooo here's a helpful hint to tamp down that utter confusion you seem to be having:
  The guys who want armed guard genital inspectors in front of every bathroom are the bad guys.
  
  Right, they never stated otherwise, but transphobic measures doesn't necessarily make one a nazi. It makes you awful but there are different kinds of awful than just nazism. The risk of calling everyone a nazi is that you dilute what the word actually means so that you risk generalizing and uniting the awful people instead of separating them based on their various horrendous opinions.
  
  transphobic measures doesn't necessarily make one a nazi.
  Lemmy.world has already defederated from them. They're not just transphobic, the admins of exploding heads are also virulently racist.
  https://lemmy.world/post/747912
  So while transphobic measures don't make someone a nazi, exploding heads absolutely is a far right shithole.
  
  Please explain how they differ?
  Edit (2): TL;DR (and the first thought I had which then escaped me when I went to type my original reply but has now returned): The Venn diagram of Nazis and transphobes has massive overlap, but even those that don't fit in both are bad and harmful in their own right, so who are you really defending here?
  And before you try
  "Nazism wasn't about transphobia":
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutf%C3%BCrSexualwissenschaft#Naziera
  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/
  or
  "Transphobes today have nothing to do with Nazism":
  https://zeefeed.com.au/anti-trans-feminism-nazi-ideology/
  https://socialism.com/fso-article/posie-parker-in-australia-terfs-nazis-and-the-fight-for-trans-liberation/
  Edit (1) because sent too soon:
  Not wanting to admit it to themselves and/or being wilfully ignorant in defence of their cognitive dissonance, nor you personally not liking it, doesn't make transphobes any less supporters of what is without a doubt a Nazi (if not Nazi inspired, which doesn't make it better) ideology, attitude, and behaviour.
  
  so who are you really defending here?
  Nazis, they are defending Nazis and want to pretend they are not.
  
  And on a completely unrelated note - I was only able to see your reply by going to your profile overview (love the render btw!), OP seems to have vanished, even under the comments tab on each of our profiles the ones made here are gone. Is this what happens here when a post gets removed?
  E:never mind, that's my confusion.
  
  That's why when you ask them to clarify they go quiet, because they know that means saying the quiet part out loud because, as you say, there is only one conclusion.
  
  That's why when you ask them to clarify they go quiet,
  That Sartre quote again but with the relevant bit in bold:
  “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
  
  transphobic measures doesn't necessarily make one a nazi
  True but neither ideology deserves a spot at the table of civilized discourse. So it's a bit of a moot point.
  
  It's not a moot point when we consider the fluidity of language and the potential for any group to manipulate terms to suit their interests. If someone can blanket-label their opposition as a 'transphobe' or, more extreme, a 'Nazi', it bypasses meaningful debate and eradicates the chance to understand differing viewpoints. This not only oversimplifies complex discussions, but it also fosters a lazy and destructive discourse that can fuel animosity rather than understanding. We need to be challenged. A tree that grows without wind will not have the strength to stand in a storm.
  
  Yeah but that's not what is happening here. These guys are literally transphobes. I understand your concern but bringing it up here is providing cover for these guys.
  
  Imagine using the ammo of "complexity" and the subjectivity of language to defend wholly unsubtle people who explicity want others harassed/harmed/dead for being their authentic selves and that authenticity has absolutely NOTHIGN to do with them personally
  
  What people don't get is that when someone is called a Nazi, it doesn't necessarily mean that they literally identify completely with Nazi ideology.
  Rather it is about the pattern of behavior that is equivalent to the Nazi pattern of behavior.
  For that to be true, people do not need to, for example, hate and want to kill Jews. "Jews" could be replaced by anything else, for example trans people, and it's still valid to call them a Nazi.
  If one does not want to be called a Nazi, maybe don't try to get rid of a group of people that haven't done anything bad.
  
  Not to mention the Historical Nazis' hatred of LGBTQ+ people
  
  The vast majority of people screaming about bathrooms in the US are in fact Nazis or nazi adjacent.
  There is NO reason to dump that much hate on like two or three people per state unless you just enjoy the cruelty.
  
  The vast majority of people screaming about bathrooms in the US are in fact Nazis or nazi adjacent.
  That's just ridiculous. Not all bad things are the same thing.
  
  Read up on nazi policies towards trans people
  
  All Nazis are transphobes, but not all transphobes are Nazis.
  
  At best this is obnoxiously pedantic and at worst you provide cover for bigots so what are you getting out of this?
  
  If we start going down the "all bad people are x" path without having at least some knowledge of why and how they're bad, we open ourselves to manipulation. Or irrelevance, if we dilute the term "Nazi" so much that when we call out actual Nazis no one listens.
  We have to be truthful in our accusations. Especially in a case like this. Being a transphobe is, by itself, a horrible thing. We don't need to muddy the waters by throwing "Nazi" in there too. There are plenty of other, actual Nazis that can have that label.
  
  Uh, no, a lot of the people screaming about this are those on the far-right, who literately share memes with holocaust denial, wear swastikas, go to Neo-nazi rallies, etc. This is well known to hate watch groups, so this is not an exaggeration. We are literately talking about Nazi supporters, not just saying they are 'like nazis'.
  
  I don't know what to say except you're just wrong. Not all transphobes are nazis, and calling them nazis just makes you look dumb. You can go slog through their bullshit if you like. All nazis are transphobes, of course, but it doesn't work the other way. A TERF isn't a nazi, and is probably a fan of the whole "punch a nazi" movement.
  You don't NEED to call them nazis is the crazy thing. Being a transphobe is enough of a horrible thing. By also throwing in the nazi thing you make people just totally dismiss you as an uninformed person.
  
  Who exactly holds the authority to label 'the bad guys'? Sure, some actions are undeniably harmful, but does that warrant placing all perceived wrongdoers in the same category, from internet trolls to murderers? Is there no nuance or room for varying degrees of transgressions? I hope you can ask yourself if you're always on the side of righteousness, or might you be perceived as 'the bad guy" from another perspective? It's important to understand that the world is not simply binary, and such a mindset can dangerously oversimplify complex issues.
  
  Who exactly holds the authority to label 'the bad guys'?
  People who don't get their rocks off by investing more effort into hating the marginalized.
  This isn't about me and this isn't about subtlety. On the whole LGBT+haters are nazi adjacent and they get a kick out of hating the marginalized, and they do it VERY LOUDLY.
  Like literally it's the AMERICA FIRST!ers here that are now specifically hating on like the two or three trans people in each state who play sports, and like the maybe handful of total trans people in each state in comparison to state population.
  
  Sounds to me like you group everyone who has an even remotely different viewpoint than you in to one category so you can easily hate and discredit them all without ever actually thinking critically.
  You're just bringing up ideas you don't like and then creating a strawman character that you can hate. You know they think the same way about you right? Do you not see how this leads to misinformation and unnecessary hatred? Solving nothing and creating even more division is not something I will stand behind.
  
  Sounds to me like you’re definitely a fucking nazi
  
  Or maybe I'm moderate and would like to not feel like an extremist for trying to find the truth that's somewhere in the middle.
  
  Realistically, whoever is the admin of the instance can decide to block another instance for any reason, or no reason at all. Admins of threadiverse sites are maintaining (and owning) these instances as a hobby. If they decide they don't want to look at content about penguins during their leisure time, they can just ... block them.
  Since threadiverse is a bit less mature than the mastodon ecosystem, there aren't any "big" democratically owned and managed instances, so most people are stuck with benevolent dictator for life situations.
  Edit: Also, if an admin doesn't want penguin content stored on their servers (which they pay for), it's a bit strange to say they must store content they don't like on what is essentially their personal machine.
  
  What you are suggesting is that we, as a society, are incapable of discerning right from wrong and enforcing societal norms at all ever. Because who knows? Who has the power to determine these things?? hand wringing, pearl clutching
  Let me tell you who: Anyone with two brain cells and a heart. Fascism has a clear definition. People who are being called Nazis because they openly hate and advocate for the genocide of trans people are being called Nazis because THEY ARE ACTING LIKE NAZIS.
  We absolutely have no obligation to air their bigoted, make believe grievances in public. We have every right to shut them down and shut them up to protect vulnerable minority populations.
  Stop JAQing off and pretending otherwise.
  
  Nazis exist, and they are abhorrent. But is it fair to label the entire community of exploding-heads as such? Or, is it that the platform tolerates a broader range of discourse than you are comfortable with? Yes, Nazis may be part of the mix, but so too might be their staunch opponents. Assigning people to preconceived boxes based on assumed beliefs isn't conducive to understanding. While we concur on opposing Nazis, I refuse to disregard an entire group's perspectives because I may disagree with some. It's crucial to engage with opposing views for a balanced discourse, a principle applicable to everyone.
  
  It is NOT crucial to engage in any kind of discourse with fascists who advocate genocide (aka Nazis)
  And you know what you have if a "normal" person sits down to dinner with 10 Nazis? You have 11 Nazis.
  There is no room for tolerance of Nazis, nor of those who coddle and enable Nazis.
  So yes. It's fair.
  
  Therein lies the problem, who says they're nazis? Just some person on the internet? I'll decide if someone is a nazi for myself, I don't need protection.
  
  Their behavior being exactly consistent with the definition of fascism and their persistent genocidal intent toward minorities says they are Nazis.
  You can't possibly be this stupid. It's not that hard to identify fascism.. Stop being disingenuous
  
  No, it's not that hard, but I don't think I agree with your criteria for fascism or who "they" are. Like, who are you talking about? Everybody on exploding-heads? Anyone who calls themselves conservative? Literal nazis? Those are all 3 different groups with some overlap for sure, but that doesn't mean they're ALL inherently wrong. I don't agree with hasty generalizations and I think people need to start thinking critically and with nuance. Life just isn't as simple as you're trying to make it.
  
  Bro everyone knows you don’t find nazis abhorrent. Fuck off.
  
  Lol, don't hurt yourself proving my point now.
  
  Paradox of Tolerance in action, right here.
  
  Would love to be an armed boob inspector
  
  Finally my FBI hat from middle school can get some use.
- LMAO, this post got downvoted, this fucking place. It's going to fail because of shit like this.
  
  I feel like our definitions of success and failure are wildly different.
- You're not entirely wrong, but when we are actually talking about actual literal self-declared fascists who are obviously talking and acting fascistic, then it definitely does apply. This is a long way past any sort of grey area, dude!
  
  This is where the need for nuance comes in. If we were dealing with a platform overrun by advocates for genocide, then defederation would be a reasonable step. But the lack of nuance creates an issue. If any perspective slightly outside your tolerance threshold is immediately labeled as Nazi, where do we draw the line? At what point on the right or the left spectrum does a viewpoint become unacceptable? The challenge lies in defining these boundaries and promoting dialogue without promoting hate.
They really should make an exception to the law for punching Nazis
I really wish it was socially acceptable to punch a Nazi. Cops don't like that, so I don't do it.
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- .

The issue with some instances is that most if not all communites / magazines are awful.

The best solution would be if Lemmy would let Users block whole instances, and Server Admins could create a default block list that users can still edit for themselves. And Community Admins should be able to block members from certain instances from participating.

A lot of free speech arguments falter in situations like these, imo, since they are predicated on the speech involved being genuine feelings/ideas/emotions. Troll groups like explodingheads and /r/thedonald are/were less about exchanging ideas and more about inflicting ideas on others. When thedonald was isolated, their community essentially started to die because there wasn't much genuine interest in discussing politics - their only interest was in 'redpilling normies'.

Ugh. Time to post that always relevant Sartre quote again. I hate that it's still relevant almost 80 years later:
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
The entire concept of democracy has a core concept of everyone working together for the common good.
Which doesn't work when one side of the spectrum is trying to burn everything down for short term profit and power madness.
I think it's really dangerous to dismiss the speech they spread as not their genuine feelings/ideas/emotions, because even if the troll doesn't believe it personally, by spreading it anyway, they are absolutely bolstering those who do, and there are many.
You have to look at where these ideas are born from and who benefits from them, not pretend no one actually holds them because that's demonstrably not true.
- I should refine what I said. I think they genuinely believe many of the things they espouse, but (1) they espouse many things they don't believe in an effort to bring in outsiders with less harsh ideas before acclimating them to the intensity ("I'm as gay and liberal as they come, but even I can see how the trans movement has become largely exclusionary and radical") and (2) this is more about what the purpose of the community is, rather than the individuals. The individuals that are trolls can just be blocked, even if it becomes tedious when they grab new accounts. The community itself has a purpose, however, and that purpose can be either focused "internally" (members are discussing things amongst themselves) or "externally" (members largely discuss how to affect other communities). I think worries about freedom of speech or the silencing of honestly held (and expressed) beliefs are largely worried about the former (which may be more earnest), but a lot of the toxic communities are the latter, where there is very little that is expressed in earnest on the platform, because earnest conversations aren't the purpose of the community. They're little more than staging grounds on a given platform to try and either recruit outsiders or annoy their political opponents. I think this last aspect is the worst part, since communities like thedonald only really shared a communal love of annoying 'the libs' or left wing ideas in general, and the only purpose of the community was to be shitty.
  
  I agree with you there (especially on that last point - they literally come looking for us so they can bully us then claim victim. every. fucking. time.) and appreciate the clarification, I think this kind of nuance is important to get in to especially when there seems to be a rise in bad faith users in these discussions (and those who are perhaps on the fence, who they target with their playing down of the hate).

Some people, like Elon Musk, want us to believe that social networks are a "digital town square", but imo that's a pretty poor metaphor. Social networks are more similar to "digital pubs". They are places where you go to meet, chat and share with your people. Of course it is a public place, and anyone can listen to your conversations, and in principle, even join. But social networks, as pubs, and as any other human interaction, are governed by (mostly unwritten) social contracts, codes of conduct and etiquette. You are not supposed to join a conversation uninvited, and if you are invited, you are supposed to treat the others with respect.

However, these groups systematically and purposely violate the social contracts, they hijack spaces and conversation where they were not invited and insult, harass and harm anyone who doesn't think like them or simply if they find it funny. They are the drunkards that instigate bar fights. And as in real life, the owners don't want disruptive elements in their pubs.

At this point, the Internet is 40 years old, and mass-adoption happened more than 20 years ago. Most of us have been part of many communities before lemmy and/or kbin. And the disruptive elements are always the same. There are many groups of people with different opinions on religion, social issues, economical policies, etc, and yet only the far-right insists on the on-line persecution of their opponents. And their strategy works as long as the apologist support them.

This isn't a matter of echo chambers. You can hear many different voices on lemmy/kbin. The only requirement to have you voice heard is basic respect, and that is something that the far-right refuses to do.

Then move to another instance. That's the beauty of the fediverse. I left that bullshit behind on Reddit, I'll be damned if it follows me out here.

You know kbin is a communist project named after the ak47, right?

Oh no! Guess I'll just have to figure out why that matters or why you think I would care.
Citation needed