Democrat reformists finding out that Democrats will only play dirty against the left.
Democrat reformists finding out that Democrats will only play dirty against the left.
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There is no electoral system that can overcome a sufficiently organized and motivated capital class.
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Exactly, it's a voter problem. We have a ranked choice voting system in Australia with cumpolsory voting, same as everywhere, we mostly elect fools and asshats.
But then some some 2000 years ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses
Juvenal originally used it to decry the "selfishness" of common people and their neglect of wider concerns. The phrase implies a population's erosion or ignorance of civic duty as a priority.
80% simply don't really give a shit.
Susan Sontag was asked what she had learned from the Holocaust, and she said that 10% of any population is cruel, no matter what, and that 10% is merciful, no matter what, and that the remaining 80% could be moved in either direction” —Kurt Vonnegut
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It's not a voter problem, it's a capitalism problem.
In a capitalist democracy, it's capital that sets the rules for governance, not the other way around. You can have a social democracy, but you can't undo capital in a capitalist democracy by voting.
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You're incredibly defeatist. You absolutely can, that's why they keep spending so much money trying to influence our vote.
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I agree that spending boatloads of money on propaganda is an effective way of dictating the terms of an election.
It's possible that you just don't agree that capital owners have more money and influence than the rest of the country by orders of magnitude, and that somehow if we just yell really really loudly that we can overcome that immense power differential.
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Australia uses IRV, not STV, which is basically just FPTP with a fancier ballot. And nobody else on the planet uses this for multi-seat legislative assemblies. Only Australia.
But if you're advocating for increased educational funding so that voters aren't idiots, I'm all for that, too.
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Are you suggesting we abolish democracy?
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What democracy is there to abolish?
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The one that they keep spending billions of dollars every year to influence, including spreading the myth that your vote doesn't matter, to discourage voter participation.
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The one that they keep spending billions of dollars every year to influence
Which is why voting cannot overcome capital. I'm not saying voting is pointless, only that voting has been made to be incapable of undoing the power that has accumulated under capital.
The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.
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Which is why voting cannot overcome capital.
Why not? Have you tried? The internet is the greatest opportunity in American history - you no longer need to be a newspaper tycoon or a TV or radio station owner to reach people. Just the right message and the right personality.
China and Russia are tricking people on the internet right now into storming Area 51, eating tide pods, electing a fascist, and they did it all for PENNIES.
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Why not?
Because capital will never cede power without a threat of violence (implicit or otherwise).
China and Russia [...] did it all for PENNIES
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Because capital will never cede power without a threat of violence (implicit or otherwise).
Again, have you tried?
Yes, quite sure:
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Yes, quite sure:
Why? Because of a wikipedia post citing things like the Washington Post? What is your actual evidence? Present your actual evidence of "China and Russia are tricking people on the internet right now into storming Area 51, eating tide pods, electing a fascist". Not some other claim, not just "oh Russia does some astroturfing", that specific claim. How about you start with the tide pods.
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Why? Because of a wikipedia post citing things like the Washington Post?
There's 184 sources in there, discredit all of them.
that specific claim. How about you start with the tide pods.
Google "Tiktok challenges".
But really, I'm more concerned about the electing a fascist part.
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There’s 184 sources in there, discredit all of them.
Fuck off with that Gish Gallop. How about you actually present your sources.
Google “Tiktok challenges”.
I googled it, found zero evidence about "China and Russia are tricking people on the internet right now into eating tide pods"
So you were just lying.
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Or, hear me out, a majority of this is homegrown because rich people see the appetite for socialism and socialist policies in their populace and they are scared they will lose their royal thrones.
The answer to socialism was fascism and propaganda last century, the same playbook is being used today.
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Or, hear me out, the American GOP has been corrupted by Russia since 2012, after Citizens United. That's when Fox News started saying how Putin is a better leader than Obama. They were broke, and Russia funded them through the NRA.
If you stop Russia, you can stop a lot of this bullshit.
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I don't know who this meme is directed at but for clarity's sake, I'm Canadian. And yes, a LOT of America's problems can be blamed on "foreigners", specifically Russians:
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The one that they keep spending billions of dollars every year to influence, including spreading the myth that your vote doesn’t matter, to discourage voter participation.
If billions are being used to influence elections, and that isn't all grassroots - there isn't democracy.
The form of capitalism we enjoy currently and democracy are fundamentally opposed.
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If billions are being used to influence elections, and that isn't all grassroots - there isn't democracy.
I'm not an absolutist. It is democracy, just not as democratic as it should be.
Take Russia, for example. They overcame the DNC's billions with a few hundred thousand on internet bots to trick America into electing a fascist. The internet was a wide open propaganda hole that everyone overlooked, and you didn't even need to be a billionaire to reach people on it.
Why aren't you trying as hard as they are? Are you too comfortable in American decadency?
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Source your claims. Right-wing think tanks, right-wing media and influencers, right-wing organizations, the DNC, Hillary's campaign, and even liberal media created Trump and allowed him to rise to power.
Trump was nobody before the media put him on blast. If there were so many "Russian bots" that enabled his rise to power, prove it - it should be easy for you.
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Source your claims.
Well I can sure as shit do better than Salon.
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The source is a verified, leaked email from Clinton's campaign and an internal DNC memo, if you cared to read. Who cares about Salon. The Wikileaks releases are the only meat of election interference, which according to Julian, didn't come from Russia.
Everybody has seen those pages, and reporting on the subject - but the impact was minimal during the 2016 elections and onwards, I'd argue.
Russian operatives maintaining Facebook/Twitter accounts to organize small protests is truly insignificant and Russian-linked actors buying ads (that ultimately didn't reach many) to manipulate the election is a failure of the companies involved for accepting the money and running the ads.
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The Wikileaks releases are the only meat of election interference, which according to Julian, didn't come from Russia.
What are you talking about? Julian was on Russia's side.
Everybody has seen those pages, and reporting on the subject - but the impact was minimal during the 2016 elections and onwards, I'd argue.
On what basis would you argue that? The DNI disagrees:
https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
Russian operatives maintaining Facebook/Twitter accounts to organize small protests is truly insignificant and Russian-linked actors buying ads (that ultimately didn't reach many) to manipulate the election is a failure of the companies involved. If Facebook/Twitter algorithms widely promoted these accounts and ads, it's another failure.
Yes, many failures. Are you at least admitting it happened? That Russia used these failures to manipulate American elections?
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Julian was not on anybody's side in particular, there is no evidence that Julian ever favored Putin or the government there. Go and actually listen to past recordings of the guy to get a handle on his beliefs and principles. What did Russia ever do for him?
I am admitting that some stuff happened, but that nothing truly significant occurred. Hillary won the popular vote by a wide margin. The only thing that occurred was Red Scare 2.0 with ample hysteria - tech company incompetence aside. What ensued was everybody accusing everybody of being a Russian actor, with no proof.
The push for Trump was multi-pronged, see my initial response for the meat of what created Trump.
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https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
Salon is compromised, they're part of the Russia denialists.
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The email leaks are verified, try again.
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I'm sorry are there some email leaks I'm unaware of that reveal that Russia actually wasn't involved in helping Trump get elected at all or what are you trying to argue here?
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July 22: WikiLeaks publishes 20,000 emails from seven key DNC officials. The emails show them disparaging Bernie Sanders and favoring Hillary Clinton in the 2016 presidential primaries.
Did Russia make them do that too?
I'm arguing that I trust Julian over Stone and anybody else who claims otherwise. You are free to disagree.
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I'm suggesting we abolish the capital class.
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Alright that sounds awesome but is also super vague and leaves out all the important steps like the how and the when.
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Step 1: Engender class consciousness in the american working class <--- You are here
Step 2: Organize
Step 3: Demonstrate
Step 4: Continue escalating until the capital class is forced to negotiate
Notice that 'vote' does not appear on this list.
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363 comments