4d ago

Are you a feminist? (If so why, if not why not?)

Might help also to describe what you think feminism is, since it's one of those terms that is overloaded.

I once had a physical therapist tell me she wasn't a feminist because she thought women couldn't be as physically capable as men when serving as soldiers, and seemed to believe feminism requires treating women exactly like men.

I told her I was a feminist because I believe in equal rights for men and women, an idea she did not seem so opposed to.

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263 comments

I am a feminist.
Feminism means all genders should be treated equal, but that does not mean men should also get paid menstrual leaves at their job. Equal rights, yes. Everyone should be treated fairly.
- Defining it as paid menstrual leave is kind of the problem. Hear me out.
  Women should be able to take paid leaves from work to deal with menstrual problems, but it shouldn’t stop there. All people should be able to take leave from work when they need it.
  So, if it is redefined as paid leave, then it equalizes the field.
  
  I think the "when they need it" part is where the feminism becomes relevant - there is a history of women (and men) being denied leave when they need it for sexist / patriarchal reasons (e.g. men are generally not given paternity leave, women might not be allowed to take leave due to menstruation).
  The scope of acceptable reasons to take leave is what is debated and where feminism has pushed for paid leave for reasons previously denied to both men and women.
  
  I get you. But say, a company has a policy that we give employees 2 paid leaves per month, for example, a woman can take those 2 paid leaves for the same reasons as the men do, but they would also need a day more of paid leaves to deal with the menstrual pain/stress. If that extra day is not defined as "menstrual leaves" men would argue that why are women getting more leaves, and hence the feminism thing will be broken as both are not treated fairly.
  Same in the case of pregnancy. Companies give 2 months of paid leaves for that.
  Or maybe the right thing to do is, just say, if you're pregnant, you get paid time off, if you're having periods you get paid time off. Do not include gender in it.
  Idk man.
  
  I get what you’re saying, but if a woman is given more benefits than a man, businesses are disincentivized to hire women.
  
  Unless the government subsidizes their wages or reduces tax burdens for companies that have more diverse hiring
  That's what we do in my country. If you hire only men you generally qualify for fewer government programs. In some cases you cant bid on the job if you don't have sufficient representation for specific groups.
  
  But I think the idea is that men should get the same lenience, i.e. just-feeling-wrecked-leave rather than menstrual-leave. The difference in having a baby should be that one needs medical leave too, in my mind.
  
  And that's why the amount of paid leave should not be limited by time but by reason. If you can't work because you're pregnant or sick or whatever, you get paid leave until you are better. And the employer or coworkers don't even need to know why you can't work, that's for a doctor to decide. And anyone saying it's not fair if they have to work more because they are not sick as often is obviously just selfish and not interested in equality
- I kind of agree on this. Women cannot expect equal pay for less work.
  
  But that's not what they are expecting. They expect to not have to work if they are sick. And that should apply to anyone, shouldn't it? Which leaves the question, who has to care for the sick? Historically that would be the family, but nowerdays with the focus on individualism, either everyone has to care (e.g. by some health care system) or we just accept that sick people are not cared for in our society and hope that we don't get sick. I know I prefer the first solution
  
  The problem is grey area in what sick means when it comes to periods. Is low mood sick? Is PMS sick? Is pain during periods sick? Is being irritable sick? This makes it seem like an excuse at time.
  Men should also be then allowed to take leaves when they feel like shit or something. Point is equal pay for equal work. Women can’t expect to be CEOs and stuff when they don’t put in equal work. There are women who get to high posts inspite of all these problems and I respect that. I guess it is more of an individual to individual thing about who puts in efforts, who is truthful, etc.
  
  I absolutely guarantee you one of those things is not like the others. Period pain can be truly debilitating, especially for a person with endometriosis. It is totally worth time off.
  Also, I find your insinuation that women take time off for ‘low mood’ and ‘being irritable’ frequently—as opposed to men—rather sexist and offensive, not to mention not reflective of reality.
  However, I do like how you inadvertently stumbled into the idea that we should all have more sick days and mental health should be included in the definition of ‘health’. Taking time off for a mental ‘breather’ should be normalized in our society. I also think higher-mental-stress jobs like 911 dispatcher should get more mental health off-time.
  
  If it is a diagnosed disease, then time off is no brainer. However, then they should not expect any promotions over other people without the disease (assuming equal work/hour).
  Also, I find your insinuation that women take time off for ‘low mood’ and ‘being irritable’ frequently—as opposed to men—rather sexist and offensive, not to mention not reflective of reality.
  I don't have data, it is based on my observations of people and opinions. I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
  inadvertently stumbled into the idea
  Because anyone other than "feminists" does not have a brain to come up with ideas intentionally. This statement is the perfect example why feminism is being promoted in an extremely stupid way. You attack the very people who are willing to engage in constructive discussions by calling them stupid. Then, you are surprised when they fight back and call them sexist pigs. No wonder men hate feminism as a movement.
  
  then they should not expect any promotions over other people without the disease (assuming equal work/hour).
  Are you saying if they work the same hours, but take off more of their sick days because of a disease, they shouldn’t get a promotion?
  
  No, I am assuming that they do the same amount of work per hour
  
  Yeah, I don’t think anyone with diseases expected they should get special treatment when it comes to promotions. They pretty much just want to have the same chance as others without diseases.
  
  And where in my previous post did I call you stupid?
  You speak of mental health days in a derogatory way, as if you find the very idea that people should take care of their mental as well as physical health offensive, for reasons I don’t understand.
  I’m saying that your mocking statement about taking days off for such things should in fact be something we do, and something we should find acceptable to do.
  
  If someone is sick, and gets certified as such by a licenced medical doctor, they get leave. Why is this so complicated?
  
  A clear certificate, then yes.
  
  I agree that there is a big grey area on what is too sick to work, but with my proposal at least we are a big step further and instead of the employer deciding for you (who wants you to work for them) or you deciding on your own (who might not want to come to work after a night partying), there is now an (hopefully) independant entity, the doctor who decides.
  But I have to admit that of course the doctor can only listen to the patient and decide based on that, because there is just no way to measure pain/sickness objectively. So in the end we have to trust people to decide on their own if they are sick.
  With your proposed solution of x sick days, I guess that many people that are actually too sick for work have to work just because they don't have enough days, while some that don't get sick might use their sick days anyway, because they have them. And even with my solution, realistically there will be a lot of people going to work when they should rest, while there will also be people that use the system to rest after celebrating. I don't think a perfectly fair system is possible, but I prefer the system where people are not exploited and supressed.
  Coming back to your argument on periods, like I said, there is no way to measure someones pain besides asking them, and ignoring their answer is not the solution, so yes women should be able to take leaves for period pain. And yes, men should be able to take leaves if they feel like crap, even if that might mean taking of a day off that they might have been able to work. In the end the grey area is not perfectly convertable to able to work/not able to work.

263 comments