3mo ago

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The weird thing is it's kind of more bizarre than a dystopian society. In dystopia, you know resources are scarce and that you have to defend yourself with violence. But in this actual dystopia, I can still get up and go play disc golf, pretty much without incident. There could come a day when I'm pulled over by some Nazi cop who decides to make an example of me, which face it, has been the case for some time now, but until then for little things like that, it's pretty much business as usual despite the plummet into fascism. Very weird.
- Scarcity is artificial with our level of technology and our ingenuity.
  It's a myth, we are able to produce more than enough even with many countless individuals in dire straits maintaining the world's economy/production. We produce so much that we can afford to waste incredible amounts of food and other goods without batting an eye.
  What if the individuals slaving were given the ingredients to be happy and healthy, with their human rights and needs respected?
  Personally, I believe the world would get even more productive, things would start making sense, people wouldn't have to work so hard, we'd see forward movement in our societies, and without a doubt we'd see incredible advancements.
  I refuse to believe that everybody would laze about, leave the "hard" jobs unattended, and let the world rot.
  If we can work this hard while we are forced to survive, forced to live in lack while the landfills pile up to the sky — there's no way we wouldn't be incredibly more efficient if people could take a second to breathe and fill their cup. If everybody could take a second and look around and see where things could be even better, where they can make a difference, everything would surely very quickly improve.
  There's no way to convince me that "peak productivity" is everybody emptying their cup and breaking the glass to pay debts and to afford necessities.
  
  I say this all the time: we built an economic system based on scarcity, and then manufactured scarcity.
  
  Scarcity is artificial with our level of technology and our ingenuity.
  Not for much longer. Global fresh water demand will outstrip supply by 40% by 2030 and 90% of global top soil and arable land is at risk of depletion by 2050.
  Enjoy the last of the abundance. Things are going to start getting really bad very soon.
  
  I don't think we're doomed. I think the solarpunk movement has plenty of valid ideas to address these problems.
  I am new to the movement, but it's definitely given me some optimism — I believe that we have the means to deal with any crisis with our technology, evolving understanding of the world, and ingenuity.
  I am learning things every day and exploring new ideas fairly often. I don't think I am the best ambassador yet (not even close), so forgive me if I am off-base or not 100% dialed in.
  Agriculture is in dire need of reform and revolution. It's unsustainable — we could more intelligently feed the world by blending agriculture with nature (e.g. by discontinuing monocropping and scaling ideas garnished from food forests) and we can explore scaling up vertical farming. We can power this by renewables and utilize wasterwater recirculation.
  We can regulate industrial water usage. We can reduce animal agriculture and grow meat in labs. We can expand upon desalination technology (finding a way to derive scalable benefit from the brine and repurpose the salt) and explore other water capture technologies that all account for potential ecosystem disruption. We can make landscapes that retain water, and reforest and reduce desertification where appropriate (e.g. with ideas from the permaculture and food forest movements). We can make water pipelines and more sensibly use groundwater, respecting replenishment rates.
  We can explore creating scalable synthetic terra preta and we can explore other promising ideas like this reddit thread proposes.
  Solar panels are cheap to manufacture, and if we can finish the proton battery technology, we can build scalable, cheap energy storage and power scalable vertical farms, and more broadly power our societies.
  I am sure for whatever crisis you can think of, there is valuable discussion in the solarpunk community to explore more nuanced, comprehensive, and educated viewpoints than my own.
  You're valid in your perspective, but I don't think I am throwing my hands up just yet.
  
  You are right that we COULD do many of these things. But we won't. We live in a society of people who deny there is even a problem. Anyone who knows it's either powerless or looking to profit.
  Humans work on crisis management. We ignore a problem until it bites us in the face. Then we band together and defeat it. Unfortunately, when a problem exists that can't be corrected by the time it bites us, no banding together will stop it.
  
  Taking back our power is necessary and urgent, especially here in the US. Apathy is the recipe for our suffering. We can raise awareness so the problems we face don't bite us. Your disbelief is valid, but I am holding out hope that things will quickly start making sense.
  
  Man, I hope you're right.
  
  Infinite growth on a finite world is fundamentally unsustainable. We are blasting through tipping points and heat records daily now and the world is still fundamentally reliant on fossil fuels, despite how fast 'renewable resources' are developing.
  Late stage capitalism, fascism, resource depletion and climate collapse are literally all happening right now, and ww3 is currently in the process of kicking off.
  I get that people want hope, but believing in entropy defying magic that will rewrite physics and human nature and save us all from ourselves at the last second... is naive at best and actively harmful at worst.
  Use solarpunk ethos to build local communities and pool resources by all means though, but maybe think twice before having kids.
  
  Late stage capitalism, fascism [...] and ww3 is currently in the process of kicking off.
  If one doesn't believe a revolution or significant change isn't imminent and necessary (within the next 5 years), they aren't paying attention or they are not informed. I don't care what your ideology is (and how capitalist you are) — comprehensive action and change, specifically solutions, need to manifest soon.
  WW3 can fuck right off, it takes soldiers and willing participants to fight. We had massive desertion in the Vietnam War, I reckon that if the world was able to focus just for a second on common dreads and our shared reality, we'd identify that we can't afford to continue the current world order and state of affairs and discontinue hostile actions.
  War is a wet dream for the capitalists at the very top of the food chain, who are likely frightened that they no longer can maintain their power without it.
  resource depletion
  Resource depletion implies that we continue our state of affairs — with our reliance on fossil fuels and other non-renewable materials, at a large and very wasteful scale.
  Infinite growth on a finite world is fundamentally unsustainable. We are blasting through tipping points and heat records daily now and the world is still fundamentally reliant on fossil fuels, despite how fast ‘renewable resources’ are developing.
  Scaling vertical farms, renewable energy, and energy storage (that doesn't use rare earth materials) are not crazy suggestions. We can build high speed rail powered by renewables, that carries freight and also passengers. We can develop sustainable economies of scale and rethink the global economy.
  Our planet can support humanity and every living being on it for the foreseeable future if we take action.
  climate collapse
  We can mitigate effects of the climate collapse by moving our agriculture indoors and growing food where it's natural, rational, and sustainable to do so — in addition to exploring new soil and agricultural practices. We can leverage GMO technology sustainably and keep it in balance with the environment.
  We can encourage degrowth and decentralization. We can centralize where it makes sense (with all of our centralization being designed to be sustainable and self-sufficient). We will already have to move many cities for various reasons, we are positioned to make development make sense instead of creating urban, ecosystem-disrupting, concrete and asphalt hellholes.
  We can build our houses better and refit houses to better withstand climate effects, without expending a ton of energy to do so.
  I get that people want hope, but believing in entropy defying magic that will rewrite physics and human nature and save us all from ourselves at the last second… is naive at best and actively harmful at worst.
  You don't need entropy defying magic to address the current world system and the many crises we are facing. I believe it's undesirable to advocate doom and worst-case scenarios without considering what is in our power and advocating for it.
  I don't believe human nature is inherently violent or greedy. I believe our system elevates and enables people with these character traits — we need to rethink it and the power they have over others.
  We need to shift our collective mindset from lack and survival in imbalance (and in a sea of abundance), to thriving in balance with nature.
  but maybe think twice before having kids.
  People already aren't having kids at the rate that they once were, global birth rate is on the decline year after year, and fertility is down by a lot for a lot of reasons.
  
  I don't have the energy to try and explain current events, capitalism, history and physics to you.
  Prepare yourself for the worst, hope for the best, and lower your expectations a bit because you're definitely going to be disappointed.
  
  I don’t have the energy to try and explain current events, capitalism, history and physics to you.
  I understand current events, capitalism, and history better than most. Physics doesn't relate to our conversation because I am not suggesting or advocating for infinite growth.
  I suggest that you engage with your home instance slrpnk.net with your views for more stimulating conversation and discourse and browse the community and expose yourself to the movement with an open mind. There is plenty of activity on /r/solarpunk, as well.
  Prepare yourself for the worst, hope for the best, and lower your expectations a bit because you’re definitely going to be disappointed.
  I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not preparing myself for the worst or "lowering my expectations". We either commit collective suicide and devolve into barbarism and scarcity or we choose a different path that is more desirable.
  
  You do you bro.
  
  You too, though I can't say it isn't disappointing that you've seemingly given up on the world.
  
  I've likely met more shitty people than you. It's hard to stay optimistic about human nature after growing up in It's underbelly.
  
  Did you mean to respond to me because I don't see how it relates? I assume you are responding to the thread.
  I agree with you to a point. I mean, think of how wonderful a world it could be if there was any kind of equity. People making sure everyone is fed, no theft, no slavery, etc. It's almost traumatizing to realize we have the capacity to make this a reality, but don't.
  I've come to the conclusion this is just fantasy. It's human nature to destroy itself. People have a long history of hating people not like them. Just when I think we're making progress along comes racism again.
  I don't believe this will ever change. It's a true shame.
  
  You mentioned scarcity, so I chimed in. I am going to stand resolute because I don't want to see humanity devolve. I am going to stand in my power and encourage everybody I interact with to do the same. Doesn't mean they have to agree or listen.
  For my friends here in the US, the current state of affairs cannot continue or we will lose all of our rights and very quickly this leadership will drive us off the cliff while they play chicken.
  Thanks for responding, sorry that it wasn't entirely relevant.
  
  I've already lost hope, but good luck with that.
  
  Sure but scarcity due to broken supply chains is a real thing. It doesn’t matter how wealthy you are if you physically cannot get your supplies where they are needed there will be scarcity and it will not be artificial
  
  We do need to have more self-sufficient societal development. Shipping critical materials (raw or otherwise) and critical goods across the world doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless something is unique or a very rare resource.
  We don't need to put our eggs all in one basket — global supply lines e.g. should be for specialties and artisan goods, to ship excesses in production, and be used for aid.
  The current global trade system relies on exploitation and slavery (even child slavery e.g. with cocoa).
  We suck third-world countries of everything they have; their land, their labor, their resources, and their goods — and all the wealth concentrates into the hands of the very few in first-world countries. The result is the stagnation of the exploited region's development — we trap them into these conditions of servitude.

153 comments