Linus Torvalds affirms expulsion of Russian maintainers
Removal of kernel maintainers linked to Russia attributed to sanctions
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"Ok, lots of Russian trolls out and about.
It's entirely clear why the change was done, it's not getting reverted, and using multiple random anonymous accounts to try to "grass root" it by Russian troll factories isn't going to change anything.
And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts - the "various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing.
If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too."
fuck yes. fuck russia. fuck russians.
I’m Finnish. Did you think I’d be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it’s not just lack of real news, it’s lack of history knowledge too."
Man, it's like you spend centuries brutalizing all your neighbors, if not outright conquering them and enforcing holocausts, and this is the thanks you get!
Putin:
Russian culture is so underappreciated 🥺
No, it is appreciated. Just not in the way you want it to be.
fuck russians? fuck the Russian government and the people who support it, not all the russians.
"fuck the overwhelming majority of russians" doesn't have the same ring to it.
“fuck the overwhelming minority of Russians, mostly the rich elite, but not the ones oppressed by their government”
This.
I have no problem with Russians, but I do have a problem with the Russian government, and that makes me suspect Russians due to the chance of the Russian government using its leverage to get them to do what they want. So I understand the move, but I'm saddened that FOSS gets sucked into international politics.
FOSS is inherently political, though, and an international collaboration like Linux is inherently internationally political. Allowing big corporations to influence the direction of the codebase? That's political. Allowing the free usage and distribution of the software to anybody for any purpose not otherwise afforded by existing copyright law? That's political. Collaborating with contributors from almost every country on Earth? That's political. Being headquartered in the United States? Again political. Creating a hierarchy with Linus Torvalds at the top? The definition of politics.
It feels like people only start screaming "that's politics though!" whenever it becomes political in a way that's controversial to them – without recognizing how completely pervasive politics are in every single aspect of our lives. The fact we're even talking on Lemmy right now is political – in all likelihood, we both decided that Reddit's system of governance was unfair and thought a federated system was somehow more ideal, in this case a platform created by outspoken authcoms. That's even disregarding the Internet which Lemmy sits on top of, including net neutrality, freedom of speech, the infrastructure connecting different jurisdictions, the way it came about through organizations like DARPA, CERN, the IEEE, and ICANN, etc.
It seems though that Linus didn't make this decision for political reasons, but instead because he doesn't want to get in trouble with the US government. He indicated that he was advised by lawyers to do this:
I'm not going to go into the details that I - and other maintainers - were told by lawyers.
but instead because he doesn't want to get in trouble with the US government
I agree that that's why he made the decision, but you understand how that's political, right?
He probably isn't too bothered by the sanctions given his comments about his Finnish nationality being a reason why he opposes Russian aggression. But still, it seems at the moment he's just trying to follow the law.
I agree, and I mean to say that following the law is a political statement in the same way that him standing up and protesting by not following the law would be a political statement. We're all political actors; it's just that the amount of power we have to enact political change varies.
Fair points. I guess I happen to think Linus's action is fair since I think the sanctioned companies are thought to be supporting Russia's invasion in some way.
So, basically it's enough to say "Fuck Russia, Fuck Russians" here and it gains you massive support.
Seriously?
First, how does this fuck Russia the state?
Second, what everyday Russians have to do with it? What justifies sneaking in hate messages to a diverse ethnic group with no single ideology?
Saying "Fuck Russians" is about the same as "Fuck Jews" because Israel has done bad things. This is not okay.
Russia has said they are going to do asymetrical warfare with the west. So why should we not prepare for what they claim they will do? Russians arent owed anything by us. Not a seat at the table, not a chance to contribute to open source software, not to be listened to. Not rights beyond their borders. It doesnt matter if they are nice. Its not our job and not realistic to expend time and resources to take each individual russian's personal measure and apply sanctions onesey twosey on the bad ones. If they dont like it they should take it up with their motherland and get it sorted. I think we should immediately shut down all visas of any kind with Russia. The fact that the US is still allowing them to vacation here is absurd.
The fact that the US is still allowing them to vacation here is absurd.
According to your logic every american is scum because of government politics.
You are right. I think other countries should sanction US travelers for our governments bad actions, yes. It would wake people the eff up.
No one's owed anything, but it's in the collective interest to unite - without borders.
Russia is growing reliant on Linux, and it is heavily unlikely they'll poison their own waters. Now Russian state and companies will just fork it for their needs, leaving mainline kernel worse off.
Russians are a diverse set of people, many of whom (especially relatively young IT crowd) are super not cool with what Russia is doing and have 0 intention to do anything murky in its interest.
And I'm growing tired of people imagining Russians can just come out on the street and end this for good, but somehow don't want to or something. Any coordination of people is broken and de facto outlawed. Protesters are jailed within about a minute of protesting. People are scared for their families.
All this also ignores the fact that other world forces can have every intention to backdoor and hurt Linux as well, yet Russia in particular is the scapegoat. Linus just made sure Linux is now part of the proclaimed "West", even though it was never attacked or forced to pick any sides whatsoever, and even Russia the state held absolutely nothing against it.
As per visas - not only would US lose out on a lot of talented folks that could benefit it (and not Russia, mind you!), it's also too big of a political center. There was an occasion when the US didn't want to allow in Russian diplomats that were heading for the United Nations HQ. Is that alright in your eyes?
But like you say, they can just fork it. So let them do that. What’s the problem? Everything else is kind of out of context.
The problem is mainline Linux will now not receive collaboration efforts from Russians, which will influence the speed and course of its development.
Not saying Linux is gonna stall without Russians, but they do have a measurable impact on open-source development and introduce a lot of exotic things into the kernel, which allows it to be used with more devices and accelerates development of alternative technologies.
It's a lose-lose situation.
Besides, seeing other contributors removed for seemingly nothing but their nationality might disincentivise developers in other countries, too.
Just factually wrong. Russian maintainers were removed from their positions. They are still allowed to contribute, but they'll have to get a non-Russian maintainer to sign off on it. This removes "FSB coerces Russian maintainer into signing off on malware" as an attack vector, while having the minimum possible impact on Russian contributors whose code will be checked for correctness like anyone else's.
First, how does this fuck Russia the state?
It makes it more difficult for Russia to put backdoors into western IT infrastructure
With respect to screwing the state, it diminishes the nation's standing in the world. Tech companies under the government are unable to compete with other tech companies when it comes to promises of supporting Linux properly.
By itself it's not much but add the sum total of sanctions and you hopefully inflict an obvious contrast in prosperity available through global trade for a well behaved nation versus losing access to all those markets through misbehavior.
If the world doesn't want to step in with direct force, this is about the only sort of potentially effective measure available. Without force nor economic measures, you are left with shaking your head is disapproval.
Going too far, on the other hand, accelerates the formation of alternative alliances, BRICS being the most prominent, and growth of authoritarian axis.
And on a different angle, Linux always adhered to truly collaborative open source policy, and I'm concerned more about what this decision means to that rather than Russia. If we start excluding maintainers based on nationality, not only we'll be left without many great people supporting essential programs, we'll be left with a political division in a sphere where collaboration means everything. Seeing other people being kicked out of something so big (and, for all I've heard, even the attributions removed) is not a great motivating tool to invest your time and effort into something that can so easily be taken away from you.
The West tried for years to coddle and include Russia after the USSR collapsed, and look where it got them: a Russian invasion of Georgia and Ukraine, being blanketed with disinformation and having their elections interfered with to install far-right pro-Russians, and living under the constant fear that Russia could turn off their energy supply.
Fuck Russia; it needs to be cut off through every practicable avenue.
Well, if your state is breaching international law, deporting children, using artillery to reduce cities to ashes, sending hundreds of thousands of its own citizens to their death and allying itself with fucking north korea to "denazify" a country while swinging its nuclear dick around...
then maybe it's time to leave the country or accept that people with a russian mail address are persona non grata in the rest of the world. It's not their first war of aggression, and enough is enough.
fuck russia. fuck russians.
and fuck hospital- and refugee camp bombing zionists btw. (not all jews are zionists!)
As an Armenian I want to hear what you have to say to me, directly, about Azerbaijan which is not sanctioned, is not punished and is treated as a normal country. And by extension Turkey, which has been a NATO member since 3 years after NATO inception, and has only become less genocidal and less Nazi since then!
But since you are using "international law" as something good while it has been successfully used to justify many genocides, I guess I won't be satisfied by your answer.
put your strawman argument back where it belongs. Putin and his henchmen belong in front of the IOC, and the russians with their apathetic stance towards their government which enables this garbage behavior need to turn their state around; that is something noone else can do for them.
as long as there is no resistance movement that has strong support in the russian population, i will say "fuck russians" all day long.
At the very least, a strong majority of russians are supporters of genocidal imperialism, however a solid argument could be made that it's more like an overwhelming majority.
This holds true across all demographic segments; income, education, age, region, rural vs urban. You may have a situation where the support for genocidal imperialism is a mere majority (e.g. younger cohorts), while others approach an almost absolute majority (older cohorts), but the majority always holds no matter how you slice and dice it.
This is backed by almost all quantitative and qualitative research conducted over past ~35 years. I can share a pretty funny anecdote about how an allegedly opposition minded russian (who gets quoted in the NYT) had to twist his own quantitative findings to present a better picture of russian society.
Even recent qualitative research run by opposition minded russian researchers shows a damning picture among of even allegedly moderate russians (in russian, I can share it).
A strong majority of everyday russian support the extermination of Ukrainian culture and sending everyone who disagrees to a torture camp. And this is not limited to Ukraine, they have a similar attitude to all nations that freed themselves from cancer that was the USSR.
Unfortunately many are ignorant of the nature of russian society or prefer to reject difficult information (it's just social media hate).
Torvalds is a Finn and he understand these things and he doesn't have the liberty of shying away from reality.
When compare "Fuck Russians" to "Fuck Jews"; what exactly are you referring to? Russian as in the ethnicity or Russian as in the nationality. This is actually a pretty important point.
This is backed by almost all quantitative and qualitative research conducted over past ~35 years.
I would require some data from a person who likely wouldn't say the same about countries backing Turkey (and by extension Azerbaijan) and Israel.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680221108328 https://meduza.io/feature/2024/06/25/a-kogda-uzhe-pobeda-to-nasha-budet https://www.jiia.or.jp/en/column/2022/09/russia-fy2022-01.html
I specially provided a selection of lesser know research to avoid the usual arguments about "but how can you do polling in a totalitarian state".
Turns out, you can. And the findings show that preference falsification (e.g. a russian saying that they support the invasion of Ukraine, when they really don't) is minor and does not change the real picture; that at the very least a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists.
I didn't say a lot of people don't support it. But that'd be in parity with a lot of Americans supporting invasion of Iraq or Israel's crimes. Which makes them similar genocidal imperialists. So genocidal imperialism is normal in your "civilized world", you are doing it.
That injustice would be responsible, by the way, for a certain percentage of people answering something not because they support the war, but because they hate all those virtue-signaling jerks who support many other wars which go unpunished, with those jerks also residing in states where their political position doesn't cost them fines or jail. I don't like hypocrisy as well.
And it's funny, another guy just talked about "apathetic stance", and you now talk about "totalitarian state", and both are used to blame Russians, while they are mutually contradictory. If a state is totalitarian, then any stance taken without a suicide belt (and most taken with it) doesn't give you any immediate results. And it is.
I'm not going to argue that the majority of neurotypical people will support a war their state starts. If you are from the USA, yours did with much bigger euphoria than Russians in 2022.
This is pretty tired whataboutism w.r.t US and Iraq.
The Iraq equivalent would be American annexing Basra state, banned arabic and forcing everyone to speak with a Texan accent and eat pork chops.
All the while sending Arabic speaker to dungeons and having state TV with goons laughing about how they caught a local Iraq women speaking Arabic and sent her to a dungeon.
What bloody "equivalent"? I'm talking about literal US invasion of Iraq which has killed more Iraqis than Russia has Ukrainians in the same amount of time.
They don't call it an invasion in your land of the free? Or they really think that was normal and somehow different from 2022-now?
But we can do Iraq for your analogy too. When Saddam invaded Iran with pretty land-grabbing nationalist goals, they'd do a lot of fucked up shit of this kind, and they were supported by the West. Iranians have fought back, and that's why despite hating the Islamic regime, they have no illusions about the West too.
I want to ask you another thing - do you realize that the mafia group in control of Russia got to the point of no opposition and ability to invade, for example, Ukraine, because from the very beginning it was supported by the West against democratic forces in Russia?
Yeltsin's coup in 1993 was supported by the West. Oh, yes, his opponents were very scary, some "red-brown" mix of goosestepping neo-Nazis and Stalinists. But there's one little problem - those obviously unpleasant people would refrain from violence and try to solve the crisis via peaceful means till the very storming of parliament (where they were, ahem, the majority).
Probably half of the Russian elites have emigrated to Western countries by now with their stolen money ; were that process not as welcome from the receiving countries, maybe it wouldn't be their main goal, and maybe that would have lead to an environment where Russia's elites can possibly change.
For you, extermination of Ukrainian identity in the occupied territories is OK. For me it's not.
And at any rate, I don't buy your "whataboutism" about Iraq. You don't care about killed Iraqi civilians just you like you don't care about Ukrainiains killed by Russians.
I want to ask you another thing - do you realize that the mafia group in control of Russia got to the point of no opposition and ability to invade, for example, Ukraine, because from the very beginning it was supported by the West against democratic forces in Russia?
No, I do not believe in russian victimhood narratives.
I wonder what your sources are, yes.
Talking to many, many Russians on the ground, I certainly don't see the picture you're presenting. The absolute majority of Russian youth I know is anti-war and anti-Putin, with only a few exceptions; among older generations there is more support for Putin, but it often boils down to "who else can keep Russia from crumbling in these trying times?" - a flawed argument, but again, not coming from bloodlust or an appetite for war. Maintaining of the war is seen by them as more of a necessity, and victory as a condition to save the country from collapse.
Even the government tries to veil it into "we're against the Nazi regime of Ukraine, not against Ukrainians", because Ukrainians are absolutely seen as brotherly people, and the fact they die is tragic to most. The blatant "let's kill Ukrainian pigs" position is seen as cringe at best, and is likely to call a punch in the face.
Fair point on ethnicity vs nationality, thanks, and I'd like to explore it. Whenever the matter of Russians comes up, people rarely make the distinction. For example, when I commented on ethnic Russians getting more access to their own culture in Latvia thanks to EU intervention and acceptance of Russians as an ethnic minority, people made little distinction between ethnic Russians (including kindergarten kids who just happened to be born to two Russians) and Russian soldiers on the battlefield, ready to conquer the country.
But here, really, it doesn't alter my point. We shouldn't say "fuck all Israelis" either, because they too are a diverse group of people with vastly different views - some of them are straight up Arabs, and among the Israeli Jews, opinions on the war vary strongly.
The last two russians that I still speak to are genuinely anti-putin and support Ukraine. Does that mean this is true of all russians or does that mean there something about who I choose to speak to bringing about such a result?
You claim they are "anti-war" and yet you talk about " war is seen by them as more of a necessity". You are either anti-war or you're not. A strong majority (if not an overwhelming majority) are pro war. You're defacto whitewashing russian genocidal imperialism.
When it comes down to it, the majority of russians support extermination of Ukrainian culture, language and identity (and torturing everyone who doesn't agree).
The brotherly people bla bla is just an example of russian supremacists' thinking. This "brotherly people" pitch clearly does not include self-determination or the right to develop your own culture (and getting rid of settler colonialism). It fails if you bring up something like reparations (even among allegedly liberal minded russians). The "brotherly people" pitch is a ruse for the ignorant and naive.
Don't fucking lie about "the fact they [Ukrainians] die is tragic to most". This is really fucking low on your part. The majority of the country (at any reasonable level of sociological segmentation) openly supports genocidal imperialism against Ukraine and other countries. A small minority might be somewhat ambivalent but generally sees it as a fair sacrifice for their comfort.
It's funny that you bring up russian colonial settlers in Latvia. Even with access to free media, democratic institutions, economic growth, among russians in Latvia support for Russian/Ukrainian victory roughly evenly split (although majority claim to not know which country they support). The Latvian most definitely should be very careful
I've never lived in Israel/Palestine and I don't speak Arabic or Hebrew.
I have lived in Russia for over a decade (I can tell some funny, almost absurdist, encounters with russian racism) and I speak fluent russian. It is reasonable to claim that an overwhelming majority of russians are genocidal imperialists.
And I am not saying they would openly admit to it. But if you know how to ask questions (in russian) in a subtle way, you can see that their worldview is supremacist and aligns with the extermination of the culture of neighbouring nations and forcing them to be become subservient to the russian national identity.
Random selection of lesser know research:
-https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680221108328 -https://meduza.io/feature/2024/06/25/a-kogda-uzhe-pobeda-to-nasha-budet -https://www.jiia.or.jp/en/column/2022/09/russia-fy2022-01.html
The second URL is in russian. A fascinating read. You should send to one of your anti-war younger russians.
You can easily do a web search confirming from multiple research groups that a strong majority of russians support the invasion of Ukraine and the destruction of its culture. I shared some lesser known research that provides counter arguments to the usual low effort russian whitewashing with respect to sociological research.
No, I've put "war as a necessity" group separate from "anti-war".
Through the virtue of being Russo-Ukrainian (and currently residing in Russia) I constantly speak to people of very wide backgrounds, and I listen to conversations around.
There are people who are generally speaking of exterminating Ukraine, putting Z signs on the vehicles etc., but there aren't that many of them.
There are some that want to restore "Slavic world", and many more that talk about "saving Russia", which is certainly imperialist and serving Putin's agenda, but not aimed at exterminating Ukrainians per se (and having close Ukrainian roots and many relatives under rocket strikes, I am very sensitive to the narrative of destroying culture or people, my culture and my people, so I notice when it happens).
And there is a majority of people I know, people that are opposed to war, some mildly and mostly out of care for their families, some strongly and coming from something more. Most of them have something to lose, and even those who previously protested now can't risk that, because regime got way more brutal. They literally don't know what to do. I don't know what to do while my close ones are in danger.
Colonial settlers? Latvian Russians are the kids and grandkids of those who moved there back when this was seen as yet another region. These people never chose to be born in Latvia, but so is their home, and they happen to be Russians. People of any ethnicity in any country should have access to their culture; this is one of the basic rights everyone should have. No exceptions.
As you can guess from previous paragraphs, I speak Russian fluently as well, только при этом я здесь живу по сей день и могу оценить, как дела обстоят на самом деле и что думают обычные люди. Местами в регионах это совпадает с зарисовками, опубликованными Медузой, но в целом я вижу больше разговоров и об украинцах, хотя очень часто исподтишка, невзначай, как вот про "украинских ребят" из той же зарисовки. It's hard to openly protest and voice open dissent, though.
On the sources: 1.Clearly states that the only relevant result is that Russians do indeed hide their dissent, and estimates may be wrong even when asking indirectly, and are certainly skewed with direct answers. 2.Quite an interesting read, though there's mainly one true and important takeaway: many Russians, especially in the small regions that have always lived a slow life, face inability to protest it openly, end up growing frustrated and escape long discussions of the war. This is commonly known as "getting tired" of it, but there is a deeper level to it. 3.Sources info from article 1 and misinterprets it.
The problem is, the research you provided only confirms that there is an issue of hiding true opinions, without definitively stating wide support. A list method employed not only doesn't guarantee honest answers (just makes them more likely), it also has plenty of inaccuracies of its own, as it brings about many contentious things people could agree or disagree on.
There's one thing we have in common - we want this war to end. You, probably for overall peace in the world, me, because my close ones are in danger, hiding from mobilization, living with intermittent electricity, not knowing what tomorrow is gonna bring, and also for global peace, of course. But seeing how it unfolds in Russia, how russophobia channels and feeds into Russian nationalism - something that can easily be weaponized - I really don't think this is the answer. Russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now, they don't need someone to tell them to go figure this out, and if there is a way to support any anti-war effort inside Russia, this will go a much longer way than animosity and rejection based on where they happen to be.
And I don't buy your claim that everyone is "anti-war" and a small minority believes that “war is a necessity”. Your anecdotal experience is not really relevant when we have qualitative, quantitative research and reality (that russian have been directly occupying three nations since the USSR broke up - is this not fucking imperialism).
There are people who are generally speaking of exterminating Ukraine, putting Z signs on the vehicles etc., but there aren’t that many of them.
As I wrote earlier, it's not only an issue with those who openly express their genocidal imperialism (and there are tens of millions of such adults). It's also those who doesn't see a big problem or think it's a fair sacrifice that works for them. Such people are just as bad and their actions lead to the same outcomes.
"but not aimed at exterminating Ukrainians per se".
This is just white-washing russian genocidal intent. Your "restore the slavic world" fellows know full well that russia is doing everything possible to exterminate Ukrainian culture (not to mention torturing tens of thousands of civilians and terrorizing millions). They all know it and they all support it.
And there is a majority of people I know, people that are opposed to war. Most of them have something to lose, and even those who previously protested now can’t risk that, because regime got way more brutal. They literally don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to do while my close ones are in danger.
The overwhelming majority supported the annexation of Crimea (80-85%), the occupation of Donbass and the full scale invasion. Same with the 2008 invasion of Georgia. And yet you bring the people you know?
For Latvia to be their home, they would need to learn Latvian language and be part of Latvian culture as opposed to supporting Putin and imperialism more broadly. You can't call a place your home when your loyalties lie to a regime that wants to destroy the country you allegedly call home.
What an interesting interpretation of the first paper. It pretty clearly states that preference falsification is at around 10% with support for the full scale invasion going from 75% (direct polling) to 65% (list experiment).
"the research you provided only confirms that there is an issue of hiding true opinions, without definitively stating wide support."
This is complete bullshit that directly contradicts the findings of the paper. The authors even explicitly state that due to their methodology they believe that the true level of support is higher than 65% even when accounting for preference falsification.
List experiments have issues, any methodology does. But when multiple quantitative methodologies and qualitative research show the same findings, you can't just bring up "plenty of inaccuracies of its own".
Did we read the same paper? It's a pretty damning picture of even those who are not aggressively pro-imperialist genocide. I don't see what getting tired or not getting has to do with anything. They still support the russian army (that send cruise missiles into children's cancer hospitals) and in principle they are OK with killings and destruction as long as it benefits them.
There’s one thing we have in common - we want this war to end. You, probably for overall peace in the world, me, because my close ones are in danger, and also for global peace, of course. But seeing how it unfolds in Russia, how russophobia channels and feeds into Russian nationalism - something that can easily be weaponized - I really don’t think this is the answer. Russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now, and if we can influence them in a friendly way, we should, because animosity clearly doesn’t help.
This is great example of supremacist russian thinking. It perfect aligns with notion that a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialist (while not necessarily open stating this).
Let me translate:
"We want to keep 20% of Ukraine [and attack again later], because of "world peace", we all want "world peace", right?"
"Show respect to us russians, this is nothing. If you don't show us respect we will fuck you up!"
"Russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now" - Typical russian victimhood. They are always the victims in any situation!
"and if we can influence them in a friendly way, we should, because animosity clearly doesn’t help" - There is not a single example in recent history of russians doing any type of good faith actions in the geopolitical sphere. On the contrary, a recognition that a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists, that they do not believe in human rights (beyond using the concept for manipulation and lies) and they support authoritarianism (in their own country, but in others too) is the only way forward.
Authors clearly stated that the result can be inaccurate and some percentage of Russians may not answer honestly even under such conditions, and in conclusions, they only ended up confirming some people do seemingly hide their true opinions (although the extent of it may vary as the studied group was not representative of entire Russian population and was taken from Toloka, a place attracting specific demographic not fully representative of general Russian population).
It sure is important to know Latvian language, but for that they already have Latvian language tests for those coming into Latvian citizenship. They can, however, hold any culture they want, while respecting Latvian law and basic customs. Same applies to anyone anywhere, including any minorities of Russia or Ukraine. In any case, trying to erase Russian identity is not the answer, which is obvious to legislators outside the country.
Did I say anything about borders? You literally made this up. When I say I want peace, honestly, I don't give a single damn where the border will be - where it is now, or where it has originally been, or anything in between. I want for two countries, both of which are my homes, mind you, to stop putting their men in the meat grinder. And I know plenty of people on both sides of the Russo-Ukrainian frontline share my sentiment.
But attacking Russians on the Internet and excluding them from everywhere further radicalizes them, leaves them bitter to the outside world, which can lead them to believe y'all really are the enemies to fight against. By alienating Russians, such people just feed into Putin's narrative that the world is full of hostiles. This has nothing to do with victimhood or imperialism - this is basic human psychology, and it would work exactly the same anywhere else.
I strongly wish Russian aggression would stop, I care for it with all my heart. Again, my close ones are in fear of an attack as we speak. But I also happen to see the perspective of everyday Russians - something that most of those judging never get to see or even consider, naively thinking that they are the "punishers" for incorrect behavior, and that more of that will lead to a "child" getting to learn good behavior. No - slowly, but surely you simply raise bitterness and become an enemy. And they won't get themselves to blame, and they will march with their wraith. Not on you. On my people. My grandmother. My uncle. My brother. His wife. I could just never talk about those things, present myself as a Ukrainian (after all, I am one) and go about my life, but too much is at stake for me to stay silent when y'all are doing the stupidest shit you can.
You're lying about the authors conclusions. They explicitly stated that the support was higher than 65% due to their methodology. And they did clearly state that preference falsification is a mere ~10%. Therefore their research (like any quantitative research on this topic) supports my statement that the majority of russians are genocidal imperialists as they want to conquer Ukraine and destroy Ukrainian identity.
No, they need to learn the Latvian language at a high level if they want to live there. This is basic component of calling a place your home. You have to some loyalty to your country and not support a genocidal enemy. The fact that russian culture is at least on some level defined by genocidal imperialism is not a problem of the Latvians. This is basic stuff.
Ukraine is not your home. You are a russian, no Ukrainian would try to come up with "war is necessity" word salad or your comical “russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now”. So don't lie!
You don't care about borders because you don't care about the ten of thousands of civilians in russian torture dungeons. We also both know that vast majority of russians are not interested in any kind of real peace. Just like in 2014, the goal is to get some breathing room, then attacks and try and get more territory and exterminate Ukrainian culture in the newly occupied territories. This approach is nearly universally known and (silently) supported by a strong majority of russians.
GTFO with your "on my people". You defend russian imperialism and colonialism and you dare to imply you have some relation to Ukraine?
Victimhood is a defining element of russian culture. Without it there is no russian "culture". Conspiracy theories blaming foreign countries for any and all ills are extremely prevalent in russian society. This has been true in the past, this is true today and it will be true in the future.
I don't understand what you mean by your "punisher" sentence. The vast majority russians already blame everyone but themselves for all their problems. You brought up russophobia as an implicit excuse for russian crimes. Russophobia doesn't really exist. When a society consist of a strong majority of genocidal imperialists that lack empathy, it is reasonable to see that society as a threat and a problem. This is not rocket science.
Have you ever seen a well known russian (outside a few figures like Novodvorskaya) admit that at least part of the problem lies in russian society at large? I think not ... because we both know the role of victimhood among russians.
To develop a russia strategy that works, the world needs to understand that russians will never act in good faith, russians will always play the victim and a strong majority of russians are committed and genuine ethno-racial supremacists that lack empathy.
Alienating russians is a red herring. The only way forward is a sober view of russian culture and methods and an understanding that russia only understand force; you have to treat them like they treat others.
Even if that were true (which is not, read the damn conclusions section), this doesn't support your emotional notion. And as much as I'd like to share such a simple outrage, it's not helpful.
It would be weird to see all Russians born in Latvia only support Latvian side of things, just as it would be weird to see each and every Latvian born in Russia supporting Russia.
I never said I see war as necessary, I say many of the people that can be defined as pro-war are not for it because they want to see Ukrainians gone. I personally am anti-war and I call for peace through whatever means necessary, because - surprise surprise - I care about people's lives and you seemingly don't. It is curently you who calls for brute force solutions.
And you trying to say my ethnicity is not valid is laughable. Oh yeah, gonna be unborn to my Ukrainian father and forget my entire Ukrainian bloodline. Maybe your cultural shock at facing a Ukrainian who doesn't immediately call to destroy all Russians is your problem? Then go around and maybe talk to some outside political circlejerks.
Russian culture is independent and beautiful, not defined by anything in particular - just as Ukrainian. You trying to minimize it to "victimhood" or even politics more broadly is an insult to everything good the country has produced - and there is plenty.
The perfect scenario I see is peace talks, and then Ukraine joining NATO. There are talks on the NATO side, but they require Ukraine to leave the current war first. I do think this is the best way forward, as Russian security guarantees are proven not to be trusted.
Seeing any national or ethnic group as "inherently dangerous" is nothing but a way to more abuse, and a common justification for imperialist wars, too. There is no such society in Russia, and seeing it this way is an issue of your perception. But regardless, make peace talks and then invite Ukraine to NATO. Problem solved.
This is just one survey you can look multiple other (different provider, different methodologies) and they show the same thing. Bold of you to call me emotional when you're approach to any and all research (or even history for that matter) is "it's not valid if it doesn't show russians in a good light".
They are not really Latvian if they support Latvia's enemies, are they? This is not a complex topic, if you don't support the country, don't want to learn the language, don't care for the culture, then you can't call the country your home.
I say many of the people that can be defined as pro-war are not for it because they want to see Ukrainians gone.
The goal and the outcome of the war and occupation of Ukrainian territories. Preference falsification goes both ways. This is not some sort of secret information; the individuals know full well that Ukrainian are brutally prosecuted in the occupied territories and they support it. That is why they are genocidal imperialists.
Never denied your ethnic background. I said you are not Ukrainian; not all Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian (one example would be Crimean Tartars). You don't speak Ukrainian, you don't live in Ukraine, you openly white-wash russian genocidal imperialism, you support settler colonialism in the Baltic nations (literally saying the Latvia must tolerate individuals that openly oppose Latvian statehood and want to turn Latvia into an authoritarian hellhole).
I brought up victimhood because revanchism and victimhood are defining features of russian culture. It doesn't have to be that way, but that is the choice russians make. Going back to my previous post, show me one example where a public figure (not Novodvorskaya or Kasprov) admitted that at least some of russia's trouble are the cause of russians themselves and they need to take responsibility for their actions. Since you claim that victimhood is not a defining element of russian society/culture, this should be easy.
I am not going to speculate on future developments. One thing I will say is I would never trust any russian who talks about "peace".
I believe I explicitly stated that I don't believe that russians are "inherently imperialist". I do believe that this a choice that they make and that we should treat them as adults.
Earlier in this thread someone (was it you?) claimed that russians have no access independent non-state media. I pointed out that this was false and that every russian with a smartphone has had uncensored access to youtube (until this summer) and that major reliable news agencies have had russian language service on YT since ~2010. The point being is that the broad alignment of a strong majority of russian society with state propaganda is a choice! And russians need to take responsibility for it.
You mentioned helpful. Let me flip this around a bit. How has your approach ("russians are defacto completely innocent and you're just spreading hate!") been helpful to your own country?
What has your "opposition" achieved in the past 15 years? I will note that they have largely maintained a chauvinistic posture - e.g. support the annexation of Crimea. How will everyone (Ukrainians? the west?) being "helpful" (as defined by you) impact anything in Russia?
So what you are saying is we should nuke Russia because they are all cartoonishly evil fanatics of genocide.
I never said cartoonishly evil.
The term I used was "genocidal imperialist". Supporting extermination of Ukrainiain culture, language and identity with the goal of territorial expansion. A belief in ethno-national hierarchy system that sees certain ethnicities/nationalities as inferior and not having the right to self-determination.
Such beliefs have a strong majority support among the russian population (if not overwhelming majority support).
I guess cartoons for adults then. What's your solution? To me it sounds like dehumanising propaganda that push for indiscriminate extermination...
For you these are cartoons for adults. For those who have deal with russian imperialism, it's reality.
A tangent of sorts; do you think you would be able to guess the number genocides conducted by the russians since just in the last 100 years? Without doing a web search.
You might be able to count the big ones, but I am curious what do you think your chance of guessing correctly would be?
Note: I don't know the exact number (I can name a list of course). I am just curious what you think about this thought experiment.
To get to a solution, you need to at least recognize the problem. Things like not engaging in historical revisionism. Not rejecting any and all research findings unless they paint russian society in a way that reflects how you want the world to be.
No I don't think I would. Other than my ignorance about the facts themselves, there's the issue that I don't have a precise definition of genocide in mind.
I'd probably have the best chance by saying 0 and hoping the definition of Genocide is so narrow it doesn't really apply to shit.
And I'd give me a 30% chance.
Tangent asides, I am under no impression that the Russian Oligarchy now, the Zar before, the URRS in between, has excerted power in oppressive way just like any other country has done and stopped doing only in the face of new ways to accrue power.
And because in all those instances, from China, to the USA, to all of Europe, through history, people were pushed and pulled into believing all sort of crazy stuff, such as "the others" being inferior, evil, a threat or all of the above, I doesn't really tell me much that the polupation that is subjected to a long lasting propaganda apparatus is affected by such propaganda.
I go as far as doubting I would be able to see past it if myself I was born in that situation.
I wouldn't be able to answer accurately either.
The definition of genocide is an interesting one. I have a DIY definition that may not be listed in the human rights charts, but has what I would argue a rather lucid quality to it.
"Actions against you specifically, your immediate and extended family and your broader ethno-national group that make you wonder if the russians want to destroy you."
On some level, I do agree with what you're saying about the role of oppression and propaganda.
But how do you know this is the primary cause? What if it's a choice the russians want to make?
It's unfortunately not unheard of for whole nations (i.e. close to or at overwhelming majority support level) to support and engage in genocidal imperialism. Arguably, one would only continue at this path if they have the benefit of people white-washing their actions, no?
The reason I brought up choice earlier is that I do not believe russians are "inherently" genocidal or that they are not capable of change. This would be a ridiculous argument. I do believe that they do want to change, they like being genocidal imperialists.
And they will continue to do so until there is pushback (they get treated like they treat others) and less people buy into their white-washing propaganda.
This is not a cartoon for adults.
Framed in this way (assuming a population completely corrupted by propaganda) it becomes a matter of responsibility, not unlike what we already faced in germany.
I believe the proper course of action, in this instance and for posterity alike, is focusing and who is knowingly engaging in propaganda, and not who is being fed a false narrative.
It's a broad answer and it leaves very little room for proportionate retaliation, but it's the only approach, I believe, that foster progress and rightfully frame the issue of division and conflict in a tangible cause and effect dialectic.
If we now say, "Russian has let themselves be convinced to behave like monsters, therefore we must tread them as ones", all future wars can and will be framed in this way. If we focus and the root causes, if we condemn manipulation of information, uneven education as among the greatest, most unacceptable, criminal act, I can see a world where at the very least, if you behave like a monster that's out of your own "disposition".
Our countries welcome Ukrainian refugees.
I am friends with Russians in my country.
Russiana living here sneak benefits by saying they are Ukrainians.
The majority of Russians living here voted for Putin polls have shown.
Some Russians denounce our media and only watch Russian state TV.
So if they can't adapt after beeing here for decades I tend to believe that the Russian common sense differs immensly from ours. And therefore I agree with this propaganda: Fuck Russia.
They talk about eachother on the highest level but Russian citizens - here or in Russia - do not form loud critique. If my Brother was jailed for critique I would apread the word in my circles who would spread the word.... WE IN THE WEST WOULD MAKE US HEARD.
Russians benefiting from the lower prices just agree with their government and apparently do not care about their country killing innocent people.
So fuck Russians as well.
The advice would be relevant a bit ealier, around the Bolotnaya protests.
But now protesting in Russia is nothing short of suicidal. You won't make yourself heard - much quicker, you'll be jailed. Police is constantly on duty near main protest venues, and they act brutal. And this fear mentality permeates many even as they leave, afraid they'll have to return some day.
Right now, it seems like the only thing that would help is a full-scale revolution, but people are passivized enough through decades of oppression that organizing them is near impossible. Everyone is scared as hell to be the one who comes on the street, finds out they are alone and next moment they are taken to police and jailed for years.
Even under those conditions, people did come out to anti-war protests, especially in 2022. Result? Brutal suppression and mass incarceration. So, I hope you can see where this comes from.
Very saddening.
Given that Russians where the ones who openly shared lists of serial keys online, I wonder why no attacks onto the black velvet around their information system is not attacked then.
Thinking aloud here..
Propaganda goes both ways
Yes. Fuck Russia and fuck Russians. Slava Ukraini!
Because the ex-Soviet elite layer, one can say, a one big mafia corporation, after USSR's breakup has taught its ways to Western elites, and Western elites have taught them something too.
Actually in that context Linus' dad being a Finnish communist who lived in USSR for some time is an interesting additional fact. I even remember reading that in J4F and marveling at his rose-tinted view of USSR there.
These people want to pretend that this didn't happen and their institutions are not already dying, and that they are very different from Russians.
So they think they can avoid something by hating more on Russians, that must help. It's like avoiding infected people during a plague, only your crowd is already infected too, it's too late.
Also when you are more used to something and conscious of it, you have more immunity.
In Russia we have a choice between obvious propaganda, delusions reactive to that propaganda (which are not truth, but humans want to think that the clear opposite of propaganda is the truth), various fuzzy neutral-pessimistic grassroots opinions, and 100 sorts of foreign obvious propaganda. We are also conscious of how much power we as people really have. Even those who volunteer for Ukraine are not doing that due to "lack of real news", they are doing that due to various kinds of desperation and cynicism, some just being evil.
In any Western country you have the same choice, but due to the common delusion that your kinds of obvious propaganda are not that, you tend to avoid using it. That's just an earlier stage.
Nah men. You play the victim card. This is still in active use to reason about misdoings by Russians.
Don't compare yourself to Western countries in such a simplified way.
Russians have contributed too much crimes in their occupied countries in the last centuries. You guys felt and acted entitled.
There are always other choices.
You guys contributed actively to cruelty. Instead of admitting things you compare yourself to others to denounce them.
Reflect about yourself, not others.
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.Nah men. You play the victim card. This is still in active use to reason about misdoings by Russians.
First of all whole nations don't do that,
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.If in your barn it's considered that everything said by a person from some nation that can be put under some term specific for it, like "whataboutism" or "victim card", you're wrong!
You are simply not a sufficiently civilized person.
You are a failure of your country's education system and of your parents' efforts.
My country's education system worked better because I had to resist it to keep sanity, but I suspect that in key criteria it was the same as yours', and the reason is that someone misguided you to think that you don't have to do that.
Don’t compare yourself to Western countries in such a simplified way.
This is a too damn
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complex way for you, that's for sure. I think we do have to simplify things sometimes for our counterparts.It's me looking down on you here, not the other way around.
Holy shit, you do realize that "Western countries" is a 90% match with the bunch of nations that unleashed slavery and genocide unprecedented in history on most of the globe, rebuilt their whole societies and economies around robbing colonies, and that still functions in this exact way?
Russia was and is just the lesser sidekick turned problematic.
There has been a transformation, sort of colonialism of Theseus, where colonies that were openly and legally robbed to create that Western way of life (that Westerners consider to be a result of their superior culture and intelligence, ROFL mwahahaha) have gradually morphed into puppet monarchies and dictatorships and theocracies and cleptocracies, the borders of which are decided by the West, the corrupt elites of which all rely on the West for keeping their power, and the legality of which from the West's viewpoint is directly connected to them creating financial incentives for the West. If you don't know about this, because you are not interested in African, South American and especially Middle Eastern matters, the problem is with your ignorance.
Especially if you're Finnish (maybe, from your instance?), Soviet crimes against your country are not comparable to Finnish concentration camps in WWII,
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again, you are not deceiving anyone here. I actually thought Russia should cede that chunk of Karelia back to Finland, until I realized that Finns are as dumb as Russians, but with some superiority idea, and also until 2020 dropped and I realized that strategic depth is more important than being nice. With any country, because any supposedly civilized society (like Westerners supporting Azerbaijan against Artsakh) can turn into a bunch of savages.You guys contributed actively to cruelty.
Not anyone from my family, so you can immediately
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again, I think you're going to be sore there.By the way, my ancestral homeland is Tayq, that'd be part of Western Armenia occupied by NATO member Turkey and recognized by its Western allies as part of it.
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again.Instead of admitting things you compare yourself to others to denounce them.
That's called pointing out injustice. When an NKVD man is telling that a Gestapo man is a torturer, that's right, of course, but the Gestapo man calling the NKVD man a torturer back is just as right. Your argument seems to be that the Gestapo man is torturing someone right now, so we have to get busy with stopping that, and not the NKVD man. But the NKVD man is torturing someone right now, he's just accusing the Gestapo man of using "the victim card" instead of addressing that.
I realize that your upbringing was lacking, but you could reach the simple conclusion by yourself that if you are on the right side and if you reason logically, you won't lose anything by accepting comparisons, because the right side in an argument relies on truth reachable by logic.
If you have to discard comparisons and other arguments without answering them, you are indirectly incriminating yourself. Unless they are just unmanageable in scale, which is not the case here.
"Admitting" things is offtopic here. That's not what we are talking about. Nobody here is apologizing before a
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Finn.TL;DR - this wouldn't work in other situations if the comparison wouldn't be justified, because you'd always have something of the matter to answer instead of discarding it, so
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the last time.Wtf. Seriously?
Seems like you have to justify your civilization.
Guess your day was worse then mine. But that's obvious.
You refer to - not even thin - empty air, so go mind your people business and teach them.
-- second post, first one got an error in my app when replying --
Yeah, sorry, I get triggered easily, indeed usually based on conditions unconnected to the conversation itself.
Seems like you have to justify your civilization.
No, I extrapolate your comment for you to have something of that kind in your opinions further than what you said. Which happens when ...
Guess your day was worse then mine. But that’s obvious.
Y-yeah, I don't like spending 3 hours in client's environment via
<a lot of words censored out>
Zoom with 2-3 second delays (for key presses and mouse movements) and 2 other people discussing life in the same conference in background, and sometimes asking me questions. My day was worse, no doubt about that. Thank you for noticing. LOLYou refer to - not even thin - empty air, so go mind your people business and teach them.
I disagree, but writing such texts is useless in general towards anyone.
Getting back to the subject of the post - 11 people is not too many. Being in aggressive state's military's supply chain is common. DARPA and all.
It would be basic decency to send 11 e-mails, and then, after some time, make an announcement (could have been more thoughtful too).
It seems 1 of those 11 people was dropped by mistake, but can't believe everything posted in the Interwebs.
The rest was thin air, yes. I got triggered by Linus referring to nationalism. Again, sorry for that unhinged text.
Don't worry mate, here my upvote. Gave a nice weekend
Virtue signaling and spreading hate as a way to distance yourself has truly never led to something good.
And with the direction US and EU are taking recently, I have more sad reasons to believe your words are true. Let's hope they're not.
Thanks for your input.
It's just people can't do anything to stop Russia or at least help Ukraine. Although the latter is possible, but it'd require some effort. Writing and upvoting "fuck Russia" on social media is easy and that makes them feel better.
You feel good typing all that schlock out?
You have no arguments and you are angry because of that. No, I don't feel anything in particular about it. Maybe you do, you wrote an aggressive comment, you "defended" yourself, you must be very proud!
Triggered 🤡
Are you... proud that you write nonsense that triggers people? Is that what provides you with a sense of pride and accomplishment? Are you trying to humiliate me for your behavior? That's fucked up, mate.
The important thing is that you feel superior to everyone. that's all that matters.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think there's been a misunderstanding. I'm not trying to feel superior to anyone, I'm just expressing my frustration with how some people seem to be more focused on making empty statements online rather than actually doing something to help. I don't think one needs to be superior to feel frustrated.
I think it's pretty reasonable and okay for Palestinians to yell "Fuck Jews" IMHO
I wouldn't want them to go genociding back, but breaking ties in collaboration would be very fair and reasonable
fuck russians.
this is racism and bigotry
"Russian" is not an ethnicity to claim racism against.
Hostility toward someone nationality is racism to me. If it's not it sill equally bad.
That's not how words work. Ordinary Russians don't deserve blanket animosity or praise, yes. However, one can claim disliking Russians wholesale is bigotry, not racism. Words have definitions even if you pretend they don't so you can virtue signal on the internet.
You should approach the same fuck first approach to Israel and the us with what they are doing in Gaza and Lebanon while you are at it. That would show your adherence to standard behaviour in the light of current genocides going on.
Sure Russia is bad so fuck Russia but do you have the balls or boobs to say fuck Israel ?
Uhh....what are we talking about again?
Moving goal posts!
Whataboutism 😂
Wow they really ran out of shit to say huh?
Not much left at the bottom of that barrel but some world salad with Russian dressing.
Yes, fuck Israel and fuck Russia. Not sure why I'm responding to this dumb bait, but here we are. It's not a straw man argument when both countries are run by literal human feces
It's even funnier when we realize Russia is possibly the reason there even is an Israel-Palestine conflict.
Jews fled Russia between 1880 and 1920. While a large majority emigrated to the United States, some turned to Zionism. In 1882, members of Bilu and Hovevei Zion made what came to be known the First Aliyah to Palestine, then a part of the Ottoman Empire.
The Tsarist government sporadically encouraged Jewish emigration. In 1890, it approved the establishment of "The Society for the Support of Jewish Farmers and Artisans in Syria and Palestine"[51] (known as the "Odessa Committee" headed by Leon Pinsker) dedicated to practical aspects in establishing agricultural Jewish settlements in Palestine.
So they encouraged and supported those settlements.
You should approach the same fuck first approach to Israel
Why should they do that in the comments section under a post about Russia?
If you think caring about one tragedy means ignoring another, that’s a ‘you’ problem.
People who actually care about human suffering don’t play the ‘whataboutism’ game—because it’s not a contest, it’s a crisis. Your deflection isn’t advocacy; it’s just lazy, performative outrage disguised as moral high ground.