Stanford researchers find Mastodon has a massive child abuse material problem
Researchers found CSAM within five minutes of searching Mastodon.
Not a good look for Mastodon - what can be done to automate the removal of CSAM?
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https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:vb515nd6874/20230724-fediverse-csam-report.pdf
I'd suggest that anyone who cares about the issue take the time to read the actual report, not just drama-oriented news articles about it.
If I can try to summarize the main findings:
Problem #2 can hopefully be improved with better tooling. I don't know what you do about problem #1, though.
One option would be to decide that the underlying point of removing real CSAM is to avoid victimizing real children; and that computer-generated images are no more relevant to this goal than Harry/Draco slash fiction is.
And are you able to offer any evidence to reassure us that simulated child pornography doesn't increase the risk to real children as pedophiles become normalised to the content and escalate (you know, like what already routinely happens with regular pornography)?
Or are we just supposed to sacrifice children to your gut feeling?
Would you extend the same evidence-free argument to fictional stories, e.g. the Harry/Draco slash fiction that I mentioned?
For what it's worth, your comment has already caused ten murders. I don't have to offer evidence, just as you don't. I don't know where those murders happened, or who was murdered, but it was clearly the result of your comment. Why are you such a terrible person as to post something that causes murder?
I have no problem saying that writing stories about two children having gay sex is pretty fucked in the head, along with anyone who forms a community around sharing and creating it.
But it's also not inherently abuse, nor is it indistinguishable from reality.
You're advocating that people just be cool with photo-realistic images of children, of any age, being raped, by any number of people, in any possible way, with no assurances that the images are genuinely "fake" or that pedophiles won't be driven to make it a reality, despite other pedophiles cheering them on.
I was a teenage contrarian psuedo-intellectual once upon a time too, but I never sold out other peoples children for something to jerk off too.
If you want us to believe its harmless, prove it.
You keep making up weird, defamatory accusations. Please stop. This isn't acceptable behavior here.
Awful pearl-clutchy for someone advocating for increased community support for photorealistic images of children being raped.
Which do you think is more acceptable to Lemmy in general? Someone saying "fuck", or communities dedicated to photorealistic images of children being raped?
Maybe I'm not the one who should be changing their behavior.
FYI: You've now escalated to making knowingly-false accusations about a specific person.
Quality play. That'll absolutely convince people that you're the good guy if they somehow find themselves at the bottom of this thread without having read your wet mouthed defense of the sharing of photorealistic images of children being raped.
You've got a lot of dark, lewd fantasies about other people. Please don't post them here. I'm sure there's an NSFW community where you can post them instead; but you do not have my consent to post your dark, lewd fantasies about me and what sort of person you fantasize that I am. You've already crossed over that line.
Please stop.
I'm asking you specifically: stop inventing dark, lewd fantasies about me and posting them here.
Such a signal exists in the ActivityPub protocol, so I wonder why it's not being used.
I don't know what you do about problem #1, though.
Well the simple answer is that it doesn't have to be illegal to remove it.
The legal question is a lot harder, considering AI image generation has reached levels that are almost indistinguishable from reality.
In which case, admins should err on the side of caution and remove something that might be illegal.
I personally would prefer to have nothing remotely close to CSAM, but as long as children aren't being harmed in any conceivable way, I don't think it would be illegal to post art containing children. But communities should absolutely manage things however they think is best for their community.
In other words, I don't think 1 is a problem at all, imo things should only be illegal if there's a clear victim.
4.1 Illustrated and Computer-Generated CSAM
Stopped reading.
Child abuse laws "exclude anime" for the same reason animal cruelty laws "exclude lettuce." Drawings are not children.
Drawings are not real.
Half the goddamn point of saying CSAM instead of CP is to make clear that Bart Simpson doesn't count. Bart Simpson is not real. It is fundamentally impossible to violate Bart Simpson's rights, because he doesn't fucking exist. There is nothing to protect him from. He cannot be harmed. He is imaginary.
This cannot be a controversial statement. Anyone who can't distinguish fiction from real life has brain problems.
You can't rape someone in MS Paint. Songs about murder don't leave a body. If you write about robbing Fort Knox, the gold is still there. We're not about to arrest Mads Mikkelsen for eating people. It did not happen. It was not real.
If you still want to get mad at people for jerking off to the wrong fantasies, that is an entirely different problem from photographs of child rape.
Oh, wait, Japanese in the other comment, now I get it. This conversation is a about AI Loli porn.
Pfft, of course, that's why no one is saying the words they mean, because it suddenly becomes much harder to take the stance since hatred towards Loli Porn is not universal.
I mean, I think it's disgusting, but I don't think it should be illegal. I feel the same way about cigarettes, 2 girls 1 cup, and profane language. It's absolutely not for me, but that shouldn't make it illegal.
As long as there's no victim, knock yourself out with whatever disgusting, weird stuff you're into.
You should keep reading then, because they cover that later.
What does that even mean?
There's nothing to "cover." They're talking about illustrations of bad things, alongside actual photographic evidence of actual bad things actually happening. Nothing can excuse that.
No shit they are also discussing actual CSAM alongside... drawings. That is the problem. That's what they did wrong.
Oh no, what you describe is definitely illegal here in Canada. CSAM includes depictions here. Child sex dolls are illegal. And it should be that way because that stuff is disgusting.
CSAM includes depictions here.
Literally impossible.
Child rape cannot include drawings. You can't sexually assault a fictional character. Not "you musn't." You can't.
If you think the problem with child rape amounts to 'ew, gross,' fuck you. Your moral scale is broken, if there's not a vast gulf between those two bad things.
Okay, thanks for the clarification
Everyone except you still very much includes drawn & AI pornographic depictions of children within the basket of problematic content that should get filtered out of federated instances so thank you very much but I'm not sure your point changed anything.
They are not saying it shouldn't be defederated, they are saying reporting this to authorities is pointless and that considering CSAM is harmful.
Everybody understands there's no real kid involved. I still don't see an issue reporting it to authorities and all the definitions of CSAM make a point of including simulated and illustrated forms of child porn.
Definitions of CSAM definitely do not include illustrated and simulated forms. They do not have a victim and therefore cannot be abuse. I agree that it should not be allowed on public platforms, hence why all instances hosting it should be defederated. Despite this, it is not illegal, so reporting it to authorities is a waste of time for you and the authorities who are trying to remove and prevent actual CSAM.
CSAM definitions absolutely include illustrated and simulated forms. Just check the sources on the wikipedia link and climb your way up, you'll see "cartoons, paintings, sculptures, ..." in the wording of the protect act
They don't actually need a victim to be defined as such
That Wikipedia broader is about CP, a broader topic. Practically zero authorities will include illustrated and simualated forms of CP in their definitions of CSAM
I assumed it was the same thing, but if you're placing the bar of acceptable content below child porn, I don't know what to tell you.
That's not what I was debating. I was debating whether or not it should be reported to authorities. I made it clear in my previous comment that it is disturbing and should always be defederated.
Ah. It depends on the jurisdiction the instance is in
Mastodon has a lot of lolicon shit in japan-hosted instances for that reason
Lolicon is illegal under US protect act of 2003 and in plenty of countries
What's the point of reporting it to authorities? It's not illegal, nor should it be because there's no victim, so all reporting it does is take up valuable time that could be spent tracking down actual abuse.
It's illegal in a lot of places including where I live.
In the US you have the protect act of 2003
(a) In General.—Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that— (1) (A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and (B) is obscene; or (2) (A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and (B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value; or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.
Linked to the obscenity doctrine
Wow, that's absolutely ridiculous, thanks for sharing! That would be a very unpopular bill to get overturned...
I guess it fits with the rest of the stupidly named bills. It doesn't protect anything, it just prosecutes undesirable behaviors.
I don't think there's anything ridiculous about it. Lolicon should be illegal.
Why? Who is the victim?
There's no definite conclusion on whether consuming and distributing lolicon content could lead some individuals to seek out or create explicit content involving real children
If they rule that out entirely through the scientific method one day, then I'll join your side
Weebs usually respond to that "Well that's like saying video games cause violence!" so I'll jump ahead of you, that would be like saying we should forbid Lolicon videogames in a society that already has lolicon books, lolicon movies, lolicon cartoons and where history classes mostly cover instances of countries showing lolicon to each other. That's not the situation we're in, and even if it was, it's still not necessarily comparable. Sexual urges have properties that violence doesn't share.
If you don't think images of actual child abuse, against actual children, is infinitely worse than some ink on paper, I don't care about your opinion of anything.
You can be against both. Don't ever pretend they're the same.
Step up the reading comprehension please
I understand what you're saying and I'm calling you a liar.
You mean to say I'm wrong or you actually mean liar?
'Everyone but you agrees with me!' Bullshit.
'Nobody wants this stuff that whole servers exist for.' Self-defeating bullshit.
'You just don't understand.' Not an argument.
Okay, the former then.
Let's just think about it, how do you think it would turn out if you went outside and asked anyone about pornographic drawings of children? How long until you find someone who thinks like you outside your internet bubble?
"Nobody wants this stuff that whole servers..."
There are also servers dedicated to real child porn with real children too. Do you think that argument has any value with that tidbit of information tacked onto it?
Hey, just because someone has a stupid take on one subject doesn't mean they have a stupid take on all subjects. Attack the argument, not the person.
Some confused arguments reveal confused people. Some terrible arguments reveal terrible people. For example: I don't give two fucks what Nazis think. Life's too short to wonder which subjects they're not facile bastards about.
If someone's motivation for making certain JPEGs hyper-illegal is "they're icky" - they've lost benefit of the doubt. Because of their decisions, I no longer grant them that courtesy.
Demanding pointless censorship earns my dislike.
Equating art with violence earns my distrust.
Perhaps. But pretty much everyone has a stupid take on something.
There's obviously a limit there, but most people can be reasoned with. So instead of jumping to a conclusion, attempt a dialogue first until they prove that they can't be reasoned with. This is especially true on SM where, even if you can't convince the person you're talking with, you may just convince the next person to come along.
Telling someone why they're a stupid bastard for the sake of other people is not exactly a contradiction. You know what doesn't do observers any good? "Debating" complete garbage, in a way that lends it respect and legitimacy. Sometimes you just need to call bullshit.
Some bullshit is so blatant that it's a black mark against the bullshitter.
Sure, and I don't think that's the case here. If someone is literally arguing that a certain race should be exterminated that's one thing (report, down vote, block, and move on), but someone arguing that lolicon is just as bad as CP is something completely different entirely.
I'm just arguing that it's generally better to have the conversation than to completely shut them out. I really hate cancel culture, so I will always call out anything that seems similar. I believe in letting people explain themselves, to an extent, and my limit is if they're actively promoting real harm to actual people (e.g. encouraging violence against some group).
Someone arguing child rape is only as bad as drawing Bart Simpson naked is some kind of fucked up.
As other subthreads should thoroughly demonstrate - I don't have to respect someone, to call them out. A position you recently endorsed. The end of polite and civil discussion between equals doesn't mean the yelling has stopped.
I'm not saying you shouldn't call them out, in fact I'm 100% in favor of calling out BS. What I'm saying is to not shut down the conversation if the other side is willing to explain themselves or open to learning more.
One thing I absolutely loved about Reddit was joining communities where I was a minority and having a good faith discussion with someone I wasn't ideologically aligned with. A lot of times I got completely shut down, but sometimes I had really good discussions and better understood the other side's perspective.
So all I'm saying is you (and everyone here honestly) should seek to enable that kind of discussion instead of just stopping at the first sign of disagreement. Someone saying lolicon is as harmful as CP is probably just misinformed.
The end of polite and civil discussion
I have yet to see that, because I make a solid effort to have polite and civil discussion and I usually get it reciprocated.
If you're aggressive, you'll get aggressiveness back, but if you're inquisitive and polite, you'll likely get the same in return. Some people can't be reasoned with, but I have found that many are open to hearing other perspectives, provided I go out of my way to be polite.
He invented the stupid take he's fighting against. Nobody equated "ink on paper" with "actual rape against children".
The bar to cross to be filtered out of the federation isn't rape. Lolicon is already above the threshold, it's embarrassing that he doesn't realize that.
I don't think the OP ever said the bar was rape, the OP said the article and the person they responded to are treating drawn depictions of imaginary children the same as depictions of actual children. Those are not the same thing at all, yet many people seem to combine them (apparently including US law as of the Protect Act of 2003).
Some areas make a distinction (e.g. Japan and Germany), whereas others don't. Regardless of the legal status in your area, the two should be treated separately, even if that means both are banned.
“treating them the same” => The threshold for being refused entry into mainstream instances is just already crossed at the lolicon level.
From the perspective of the fediverse, pictures of child rape and lolicon should just both get you thrown out. That doesn’t mean you’re “treating them the same”. You’re just a social network. There's nothing you can do above defederating.
No, more like "treating them the same" => how the data is reported in the study. Whether they're both against the TOS of the instance you're on is a separate issue entirely, the problem is the data doesn't separate the two categories.
Look elsewhere ITT about that exact perspective. Even the US law (Protect Act of 2003) treats them largely the same (i.e. in the same sentence), and includes other taboo topics like bestiality, even if no actual animals are involved.
It's completely fine for neither to be allowed on a social network, what isn't okay is for research to conflate the two. An instance inconsistently removing lolicon is a very different thing from an instance inconsistently removing actual CP, yet the article combines the two, likely to make it seem like a much worse problem than it is.
That's an arbitrary decision to make and doesn't really need to be debated
The study is pretty transparent about what "CSAM" is under their definition and they even provide pictures, from a science communication point of view they're in the clear
And their definition kind of sucks. They're basically saying it's anything that SafeSearch or PhotoDNA flags, or something that has hashtag hits.
That said, there's absolutely some terrible things on Mastodon, including grooming and trading. I'm interested to know what the numbers look like for lolicon and similar vs actual CP, which would give me a much better understanding of how bad the problem is. As in, are the things included in the report outliers, or typical of their sample set?
I guess I'm looking for a bit more granularity in the report.
We're not just talking about 'ew gross icky' exclusion from a social network. We're talking about images whose possession is a felony. Images that are unambiguously the product of child rape.
This paper treats them the same. You're defending that false equivalence. You need to stop.
Who places the bar for "exclusion from a social network" at felonies? Any kind child porn has no place on the fediverse, simulated or otherwise. That doesn't mean they're equal offenses, you're just not responsible for carrying out anything other than cleaning out your porch.
We're not JUST talking about exclusion from a social network.
Do you speak English?
The subject matter is the part that's a felony - so the glib inclusion of the part you just don't like is dangerous misinformation.
I am calling out how this study falsely equates child rape and gross drawings, and your neverending hot take is 'well I don't care for either.' There's not enough 'who asked' in the world. One of these things is tacitly legal and has sites listed on Google. One of these things means you die in prison, anywhere in the world.
And here you are, still calling both of them "child porn." In the same post insisting you're not equating them. Thanks for keeping this simple, I guess.
They're studying the prevalence of CSAM under the definition of the country they're in. It'd be arbitrary to separate the two and make two different conclusions.
Also you seriously need to take a chill pill
No possible definition of child sexual abuse can include drawings.
Tell me otherwise in the same breath as insisting you're not making that false equivalence. Apparently my patience is limitless when the lie is that fucking obvious.
edit: Hang on, the obvious lie disguised a stupid lie. What country do you think Stanford is in? Drawing Bart Simpson's dick is not illegal in America. You could do it right now, in MS Paint, and e-mail it to the FBI, and they'd just formally tell you to go fuck yourself. Which would obviously not be the case with ACTUAL "child sexual abuse materials," being evidence of abusing a flesh-and-blood child.