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Does Macron even count as a liberal? He outright said the French revolution was a mistake and a monarchie would have been better. That along with trying to do some police state shit makes it seem he’s just an authoritarian.
Modern liberals all believe that. Liberals gave up the social and economic justice beliefs of the Enlightenment as soon as they attained power post-revolution, socialists inherited the Enlightenment thought and became the new left opposition pushing for real justice.
Unfortunately a lot of people who claim to be socialist just follow Stalin's and Lenin's ideology of authoritarianism not much better than fascism with a history of executing actual socialists the moment they get into power. Thankfully Eastern Europe, having lived through the horrors of Stalin's regime, are better at seeing through that bullshit.
Also while most of liberal policies are just a way to make the rich richer, believing monarchy is the way to go and wanting a police surveillance state does not seem to be a common belief.
I want you to ask some of the jews that were liberated from death camps whether they think socialism was "not much better than fascism".
You're calling people like Jeremy Corbyn a monster, who regularly defends the ussr, correctly so. That's how far off the deep end you people are in terms of understanding of this topic.
Thankfully Eastern Europe, having lived through the horrors of Stalin’s regime, are better at seeing through that bullshit.
I am originally FROM eastern europe(Czech) and this is just false. You are talking to people born in the 80s and 90s, brought up on an education system designed with a hefty quantity of anticommunism. You are not talking to people that actually lived under socialism at an age where they can remember any of it.
We have data to back this up anyway:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/
A remarkable 72% of Hungarians say that most people in their country are actually worse off today economically than they were under communism. Only 8% say most people in Hungary are better off, and 16% say things are about the same. In no other Central or Eastern European country surveyed did so many believe that economic life is worse now than during the communist era. This is the result of almost universal displeasure with the economy. Fully 94% describe the country's economy as bad, the highest level of economic discontent in the hard hit region of Central and Eastern Europe. Just 46% of Hungarians approve of their country's switch from a state-controlled economy to a market economy; 42% disapprove of the move away from communism. The public is even more negative toward Hungary's integration into Europe; 71% say their country has been weakened by the process.
The most incredible result was registered in a July 2010 IRES (Romanian Institute for Evaluation and Strategy) poll, according to which 41% of the respondents would have voted for Ceausescu, had he run for the position of president. And 63% of the survey participants said their life was better during communism, while only 23% attested that their life was worse then. Some 68% declared that communism was a good idea, just one that had been poorly applied.
Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an "illegitimate state." In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.
http://praguemonitor.com/2011/11/21/pol
Roughly 28 percent of Czechs say they were better off under the Communist regime, according to a poll conducted by the polling institute SC&C and released Sunday.
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/for-simon-poll-serbians-unsure-who-runs-their-country
A poll shows that as many as 81 per cent of Serbians believe they lived best in the former Yugoslavia -”during the time of socialism”.
The majority of Russians polled in a 2016 study said they would prefer living under the old Soviet Union and would like to see the socialist system and the Soviet state restored.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx
Reflecting back on the breakup of the Soviet Union that happened 22 years ago next week, residents in seven out of 11 countries that were part of the union are more likely to believe its collapse harmed their countries than benefited them. Only Azerbaijanis, Kazakhstanis, and Turkmens are more likely to see benefit than harm from the breakup. Georgians are divided.
You are objectively and measurably wrong. You are repeating repetitive garbage that you have seen moronic far right americans on reddit who have their brains riddled with the legacy of two red-scares repeat over and over again. Which you too repeat as fact despite it being simply not true.
But of course you'll completely ignore all of this absolutely factual information and still repeat garbage again next time because you people don't care about reality, you invent your own. When information that should make you self-crit and reevaluate your world view is presented to you the reactionary attitude you hold causes you to discard it.
Me and my whole family is from and currently in Eastern Europe you numbskull. As a bonus my mom's side of the family is originally from the karelia region where they escaped the soviet occupation once already. I grew up with horror stories from my parents and grandparents about the soviet regime. Also my extended family is about 10% lighter thanks to that regime. And anyone defending that bloody dictator's regime is a monster, yea.
It's 4 am so I'm not gonna go over the whole wall of surveys with a comb but here's my thoughts out em: I'm not surprised about the poll for Serbs, they do seem to love their genocide. As far as the 2 polls that says life was better under the USSR I guess their country must have really gone to shit now.
Considering the USSR did some considerable ethnic cleansing with their death camps in siberia and replacing the local population with their own and the breakup itself causing a lot of economic issues I can entirely believe that those countries consider the breakup itself to be harmful. Also note that the last poll leaves out 4 countries that definitely would consider the breakup to be good which is very weird. If you wanted a poll that said the breakup of the USSR was harmful you definitely want to leave out the Baltics.
Me and my whole family is from and currently in Eastern Europe you numbskull.
Then you should know from talking to literally any elders that you're talking shit.
Karelia
Lmao so you're a Finn that's proud of having fought on the nazi side of ww2 then and are unhappy with the soviets over it. Cool.
Considering the USSR did some considerable ethnic cleansing with their death camps in siberia
This is absolute nonsense. You are a historical revisionist who invents reality to suit themselves. 90% of people who entered soviet work camps left them alive perfectly well, calling them death camps is absolutely absurd. Frankly I'm not going to bother responding to you any further because this just continues to give you opportunities to spew literal actual bollocks into the thread.
Estonian actually, Karelia is were my mom's parents escaped from to get away from the soviet occupation but I don't fault the Finns for using help from the nazies to ward off a soviet occupation, considering the nazies weren't going to occupy Finland it was a lesser of 2 evils.
As I mentioned: the tales of soviet cruelties come from my parents and grandparents. Unfortunately my great grandparents never came back from the soviet death camps and there are no records of where they were taken which is a common thing for people losing family to those camps, soviet record keeping for those was shit. I'm lucky to know this much, most people just disappeared with no records at all. I guess they learned their lesson from the nuremberg trials and just destroyed their records.
Also feel free not to engage, I'm not too interested in some kid from the UK who fell for tankie bullshit and wasn't impacted by the soviet regime but I do love to argue.
I don’t fault the Finns for using help from the nazies
Stopped reading. Fuck off nazi. Not only did Finland take part in the holocaust by exterminating the Roma living in Finland (or forcing them to fight in the nazi suicide squads), but Estonia also handed over Jews to the Gestapo.
If anti-communists could stop admitting that they admire the nazis within 2 or 3 comments of starting their anti-communism you might actually be dangerous and effective at spreading your bullshit but you can never fucking help yourselves.
Not only did Finland take part in the holocaust by exterminating the Roma living in Finland (or forcing them to fight in the nazi suicide squads), but Estonia also handed over Jews to the Gestapo.
Aside from that, officials confirmed a few years ago that the Finnish Waffen‐SS participated directly in Axis atrocities. While I personally wouldn’t classify 1940s Finland as a fascist state, I understand those who do and the politics that it adopted compel me to classify it as parafascist. An example from Finland’s Holocaust:
Before taking up positions of artistic and institutional leadership in Finland, [Arvi] Kivimaa had already been an established poet, essayist, and writer. […] The views Kivimaa absorbs into Eurooppalainen veljeskunta align with those expressed in a range of German‐language books sustained by the Finnish state—many written by academics who, like Kivimaa, resumed distinguished institutional careers after the war—identifying Finland within the rhetoric of Third Reich racial and expansionist ideologies for consumption by readers of both German and Finnish.
From Finland in World War II:
The widespread Finnish animosity towards the Russians was also more or less explicitly present in the studies on Greater Finland and the occupation of Eastern Karelia. In 1986 Heikki Luostarinen’s doctoral dissertation on the enemy image of Russians and the Soviet Union in the Finnish conservative and rightwing press during the Continuation War focused on the issue in detail and showed the deep racial hatred in the wartime media and mentality.
There is a lot more to be said about Finland, but to keep things short it is a gross oversimplification to summarise its alliance with the Third Reich as only ‘picking the lesser evil’.
Now, no offence, but I think that you’d be happier or healthier doing something else with your time than trying to reason with anticommunists, seeing as how they can just make up whatever stuff that they want while instantly throwing actual research into the trashcan. Are you sure that you don’t want to try something else? Exercising? Juggling? Reading more books? Even playing drunk lawn darts would be better.
Aside from that, officials confirmed a few years ago that the Finnish Waffen‐SS participated directly in Axis atrocities. While I personally wouldn’t classify 1940s Finland as a fascist state, I understand those who do and the politics that it adopted compel me to classify it as parafascist. An example from Finland’s Holocaust:
This is new to me. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention.
Now, no offence, but I think that you’d be happier or healthier doing something else with your time than trying to reason with anticommunists, seeing as how they can just make up whatever stuff that they want while instantly throwing actual research into the trashcan. Are you sure that you don’t want to try something else? Exercising? Juggling? Reading more books? Even playing drunk lawn darts would be better.
I've been doing this for years. This username was banned on reddit 3+ years ago and liberals there still mention it. I will haunt them forever. I do like your "reading more books" suggestion though, and the implication you know I read already. I'm currently reading Losurdo.
Now, no offence, but I think that you’d be happier or healthier doing something else with your time than trying to reason with anticommunists, seeing as how they can just make up whatever stuff that they want while instantly throwing actual research into the trashcan.
Think about all the other people reading these comments with more than a few braincells. When you argue in a public forum like this you're not just arguing with one person you're also helping open other peoples eyes who may stumble across this thread in the future. Thats why I say keep up the arguments even if the other party is doing so in bad faith.
Ah yes, perfectly ok to defend the soviets committing a genocide, but the moment a country accepts help from nazies against soviet genocide they become nazies. Weird it doesn't bother you that soviets allied with the nazies and split Europe amongst one another in their treaty. Obviously nazies are fucking despicable but so are soviets and both did genocides. Yea, you can go fuck yourself too red fashist.
Dude, you’re arguing with a fascist-loving teenager. Talk about wasting time.
No mate because, as I pointed out, they weren't fucking death camps and you're an idiot. You can not cite a single academic source saying that, because none exist.
This has now devolved into you making up genocides that the soviets did not perform in order to justify your support for the nazi genocide of roma performed by finland. Screaming "red fashist" at the end doesn't help.
I'm on the side of objectively good people like Che, Nelson Mandela and Albert Einstein. You're on the side of Hitler and Mengele you absolute tool.
I didn't even make you take the position of defending the nazis, you CHOSE to take this position without prompting.
You saying they are not does not make it so. Soviets were smarter than nazies and didn't keep records as I said so the only numbers are estimated but like the lowest death count you can find is 1.5 miljon but the highest I can find is 8 million. But since most sources agree: prisoners close to death were released and they either died on the way somewhere else or at their destination. The total guesstimates of the total population at their death camps ranges from 14 to 25 million. This also doesn't count the people deported to random villages in Siberia, never to be seen again or the famines they caused by either intentionally or by ridiculous incompetence.
Also note I was defending the Finns not nazies. You can imagine how bad the soviet regime was if nazies seem like a good alternative.
Sure, you're the perfect angel, defending soviet genocides and other atrocities.
You can imagine how bad the soviet regime was if nazies seem like a good alternative.
I wonder if any of the jews that were freed by the soviets (all of them) would agree. Nah.
The total guesstimates of the total population at their death camps ranges from 14 to 25 million.
Lmao you're pulling figures from the black book of communism now which is widely regarded as a joke. Fucking hilarious.
I also genuinely do not give a fuck about any nazis they killed. Which you are definitely including in your camp deaths as a bad thing. You are literally going to bat for nazis that absolutely deserved execution.
Lmao so you’re a Finn that’s proud of having fought on the nazi side of ww2 then and are unhappy with the soviets over it. Cool.
Lmao you are forgetting who actually attacked whom and nothing said in this thread suggests Finns are proud of having to fight with the nazis.
90% of people who entered soviet work camps left them alive perfectly well
Decimation was considered a harsh punishment even by the standards of the ancient Rome and was abolished. The fact that you use 90% survival rate to defend the ussr just shows how delusional you bolshevik tankies are.
Decimation was considered a harsh punishment even by the standards of the ancient Rome and was abolished. The fact that you use 90% survival rate to defend the ussr just shows how delusional you bolshevik tankies are.
Mate 90% survival rates pre penicillin are incredibly common, let alone in camp prisons as a result of proper prisons overflowing due to world war 2 conditions on top of food problems. Read a book. It wasn't until 1953 that these rates came down to standards that you'd expect when new industrial processes made penicillin widespread in the region. This stuff is extremely basic and is in practically every single book on the topic I shouldn't have to explain it to people but none of you actually read anything.
Oh and by originally from do you mean the American originally from where your great great great grandfather was from there but you never been in said country or barely know anything about it? Or do you mean actually from the Czech republic?
I currently reside in Britain. Half my family are Czech. I have no american relatives.