5mo ago

Does one have to be an iconoclast or revolutionary these days to be validly left? I consider myself to be left of center, and very much in favor of progressive policies.

However I find myself being disagreed with quite often, mostly for not advocating or cheering violence, "by any means possible" change, or revolutionary tactics. It would seem that I'm not viewed as authentically holding my view unless I advocate extreme, violent, or radical action to accomplish it.

Those seem like two different things to me.

Edit: TO COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY

THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN'T MEANT FOR YOU.

You're viewing a single thread.

249 comments

…I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
https://housedivided.dickinson.edu/sites/teagle/texts/martin-luther-king-jr-letter-from-birmingham-jail-1963/
That's where you are right now. You can hopefully do better if you challenge yourself, but I wouldn't consider you anything different from the most milquetoast liberal hiding behind rhetorical civility while you support the violence of the state. Your progressive politics are at best redistributing the loot of that violence while perpetuating the system causing it, either out of cowardice or malice or apathy. All of them would make you the same judas goat for the imperial slaughterhouse.
- Are you actually USING Dr. Martin Luther King Jr as an ADVOCATE FOR VIOLENCE?
  You just crossed over into crazy town.
  
  dr. king is specifically calling you and yours out here, liberal. you'd do well to listen.
  
  On second thought, this is as good as you get. I'd just give up.
  
  I think perhaps you should read more of what Dr. King actually advocated for and said. He didn't endorse violence, but he didn't condemn it either. He typically didn't come from it from this moralizing angle either, most of his emphasis was his belief that violence was first and foremost a poor tactic, but at the same time he understood why violence happens. You've probably heard his 1967 statement "a riot is the language of the unheard."
  
  We should also be wary here tho, MLK did advocate for pacifism for all but the last few months of his life, and he received many a well-deserved roasting from revolutionaries like Malcolm X, and Kwame Ture.
  Everyone should especially listen to Malcolm X - Message to the grassroots for a thorough critique of King's nonviolent advocacy, and him being a sellout to petty-bourgeois white liberals for most of his career.
  
  MLK did advocate for pacifism for all but the last few months of his life
  I mean this is sort of reframed with the context that he was assassinated for making that turn away from pacifism. I'm not saying that it was the wrong decision even given the hindsight we have now, but it does recontextualize it.
  
  Check where the users are from, you're going to get much more "atypical" ~~not going to get kind~~ responses from hexbears, "we" are quite literally their enemies. "We" are the "white moderates" seeking to maintain stability instead of shedding blood to overthrow the entire developed world. (It's more than just "amerikkka" out there)
  Excuse us individuals for feeling entirely helpless when it comes to changing the entire capitalist world.
  
  Hexbear is kind, just with a 0 tolerance policy for liberalism and defenders of liberalism. Maintaining Capitalism without working to replace it does shed blood regardless. "Stability" is maintenance of an inherently violent Status Quo, which is exactly what Dr. King was calling out.
  Excuse us individuals for feeling entirely helpless when it comes to changing the entire capitalist world.
  I think this is just a misunderstanding of Revolutionary Theory, really. Nobody is advocating for random acts of terror.
  
  True, kind was the wrong word to use. I've posted comments in their threads without realizing and got decent replies, they just absolutely hate "us libs"
  
  As a hater of liberalism myself, it's nice to see people hating it. I think you should participate in more apolitical Hexbear threads, they are probably the kindest overall instance IMO. Might open your eyes into seeing why liberalism is so hated by people who can be extremely tender and caring.
  Have you engaged with Leftist theory on your own, before, or just through the eyes of others you've interacted with? Might help things make more sense.
  
  I honestly didn't notice the .ml until now, but I've recognized your name around as well and aren't very abrasive with people either. It's just the constant "(insert violent ideas) to libs!" and not exactly being a full fledged leftist myself, I can't help but feel loathed by them especially when you get replies saying you're "the worst kind of person ever" etc..
  As for the theory, it's been a very very long time so I'm sure I'm overdue to refresh my memory. I don't remember my specific issues with what I read, but I just know I wasn't convinced lol
  
  I honestly didn't notice the .ml until now, but I've recognized your name around as well and aren't very abrasive with people either.
  Different people have different strategies for engaging with people. Many older Anarchists and Marxists have become more jaded with Liberals and supporters of Liberalism, as they have had to support their own views countless times. I myself have found that every once in a while I can make people reconsider their positions, and that makes it more worth it to me. I don't fault the abrasiveness of more jaded Comrades.
  It's just the constant "(insert violent ideas) to libs!" and not exactly being a full fledged leftist myself, I can't help but feel loathed by them especially when you get replies saying you're "the worst kind of person ever" etc..
  Radicals tend to feel very strongly about their views, depending on what you have said I can see extreme pushback. That's why I suggest engaging with Leftist communities like Hexbear through their less-political communities, like !Games@Hexbear.net if you play video games.
  As for the theory, it's been a very very long time so I'm sure I'm overdue to refresh my memory. I don't remember my specific issues with what I read, but I just know I wasn't convinced lol
  Let's start with what you have engaged with, maybe that would be more productive. I can make general recommendations, but if you have specific works you disagreed with then it might help guide recommendations or discussion.
  
  I don't mean to dismiss your engagement as I do appreciate it, I just pop in on short breaks at work so I can't really delve too deeply into these kinds of things.
  Some general recommendations are definitely welcome though, I appreciate the time you took to reply!
  
  Without knowing your exposure, the simplest, fastest, and most straightforward primer is How Marxism Works, by Chris Harman. If you have any objections to Marxism, you likely won't find answers in it though, as it is extremely brief. Additionally, Harman's views on feminism are outdated, believing Marxism to supercede feminism, rather than the two implementing each other.
  Otherwise, The Principles of Communism, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Wage Labor and Capital, Value, Price and Profit, Critique of the Gotha Programme, and finally Manifesto of the Communist Party is the best order of the essential Marxist works to understand the majority of the basics. These will walk you through terms, then Dialectical and Historical Materialism (the philosophical side of Marxism and failures of non-Marxist Socialists), 2 brief works on Capitalist critique, a critique of a weaker reformist Socialist Program, and finally a call to action, tying it all together.
  
  Thank you for the list!
  Now the question is how long after I check those will I be put on another kind of "list" lol
  
  The leftist frustration with liberals comes from statements like this:
  maintain stability instead of shedding blood
  You cannot maintain the stability of capitalism without shedding blood. There is no option where no one gets hurt; violence is baked in to the status quo. How best to reduce the amount of violence in society is another question, but the false dichotomy of stability vs. violence is the root of the disconnect here.
  
  If capitalism itself has been identified as the root of the problem, what other solution is there except overthrowing it completely? Do you prefer applying temporary bandaids indefinitely?
  
  My comment wasn't so much endorsing it's continued existence, but more exasperation as the thought of an individual having any impact on pretty much the entire world is quite the stretch.
  We can learn as much as we like about the alternatives, but making it happen requires action by many many many many people. We can't even get "libs" in the US to come together on some of the "simplest" shit let alone getting enough people to change the global economic system that gives such mind boggling power to the ultra wealthy.
  
  My comment wasn't so much endorsing it's continued existence, but more exasperation as the thought of an individual having any impact on pretty much the entire world is quite the stretch.
  Leftists discourage individual acts as Adventurism. The core through-line of Leftist thought is Mass Action, with differences on how to structure this.
  We can learn as much as we like about the alternatives, but making it happen requires action by many many many many people. We can't even get "libs" in the US to come together on some of the "simplest" shit let alone getting enough people to change the global economic system that gives such mind boggling power to the ultra wealthy.
  Both Anarchists and Marxists have ideas on how to have this happen, but they mostly boil down to advocacy for organizing and building Dual Power. You may wish to read The State and Revolution if you want to delve into a thorough theoretical text by a Marxist, but it may not make as much sense if you do not already have familiarity with Marxism in general.
  
  Whoa there lil guy. Dogs don't speak. You bark.

249 comments