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  • “Let’s get there and then decide” is usually not a good way to tackle issues… but I guess it’s not up to us anyway to decide, unfortunately it looks like it’s going to take a long time before that becomes reality.

    • This is not an issue and it's not one that needs tackling. It's literally bored Lemmings taking an argument to the extreme for the sake of being argumentative.

      • It’s currently not an issue, and it’s not going to be one for a long, long time. But it’s still a sort of double standard that will eventually need to be addressed if society progresses enough. Talking about it now is pointless, sure, but so is most stuff people do on the internet.

        • will eventually need to be addressed if society progresses enough

          That's the funniest "hypothetical" shit I've ever heard.

          So let be get this right... we're gonna make it an issue because you're bored and need something to grind your axe? I'm glad it's not something that affects you personally to the point that people like you are murdered all over the world for being different.

          Because if you think this shit is trivial and annoying, you're drowning in a world filled with privilege.

          • I mean, you’re just putting words in my mouth at this point.

            • Point to the part where that happened and explain how.

              • You said:

                -I want to “make it an issue”

                -I want to “grind my axe”

                -I think “this shit is trivial and annoying” (whatever “shit” you’re talking about, since I never belittled any argument, except maybe my own ones).

                All I said was that I find weird that people take pride in stuff they didn’t choose to be, and that having a different approach to “pride” based on your sexuality is a logical fallacy that will eventually need to be addressed, once all the other, more important, issues are resolved.

                You’re making it sound like I did a call to arms for people to stop being proud of being gay because they annoy me or something.

                • like I did a call to arms for people to stop being proud

                  See, the irony is that I did no such thing and that you're the one misconstruing my points. When what I did was criticize you--as in judgement. Here's what actually happened:

                  I want to “make it an issue”

                  You literally are trying to make it an issue. Here are your words: "It’s currently not an issue [...] But it’s still a sort of double standard" blah blah. That is literally you trying to find fault in something that is not problematic in any way. Your whole premise hinges on "if society progresses enough" like you're trying to prevent a social disaster from happening in your mind. That is the pettiest battle to take on the strangest vanguard that I've ever heard. You're pulling an issue out of thin air.

                  I want to “grind my axe”

                  That's exactly what you're doing, though, and I'm calling you out. You're being argumentative over something that does not need to be argued about and ultimately fuels disdain because of this strange need to want to have a straight pride. Instead, be thankful that you don't need it to exist. If gay people could forego pride entirely in order to live in peace, we would in a heartbeat. I'm still getting homophobic shit in a supposedly gay-friendly city.

                  I think “this shit is trivial and annoying”

                  My exact words were "if you think this shit is trivial and annoying". You omitted the most important word of this hypothetical condition. At no point does it make it fact that it's what you think.

                  I find weird that people take pride in stuff they didn’t choose to be

                  And I find it weird that people try to shame me regularly for something that I didn't choose to be. What am I supposed to be if not prideful and without shame of who I am? Pride is literally a valid antonym of shame. But let me know what your effective and concise alternative is to express that. Anything constructive that doesn't sound ridiculous?

                  You may think you're smart by slapping destructive and inaccurate labels like "logical fallacy" on a device that my community has used to fight back to get us to where we are. But you're saying this all the while using other idioms incorrectly and failing to identify intention. Get your basics right, man.

                  eventually

                  So let's get there first, then.

                  • Okay, I’ll admit I did not know the “grind your axe” idiom and assumed it meant something along the lines of “sharpen your knives”, in the sense that I wanted an excuse to be angry (and metaphorically violent) at someone. I honestly still didn’t completely get what you meant because the first three definitions I found are all different from each other, but none is what I thought you meant so my bad.

                    You literally are trying to make it an issue. Here are your words: “It’s currently not an issue […] But it’s still a sort of double standard” blah blah. That is literally you trying to find fault in something that is not problematic in any way. Your whole premise hinges on “if society progresses enough” like you’re trying to prevent a social disaster from happening in your mind. That is the pettiest battle to take on the strangest vanguard that I’ve ever heard. You’re pulling an issue out of thin air.

                    You think it’s not problematic in any way. Tell me how it isn’t a double standard (by default a fallacy if we want both parties to be equal) then. And again, I’m not trying to prevent anything, at one point I even said it’s currently not important and it’s not for our generation to care, but you wanted to keep discussing because even suggesting it might be a slight problem in the far future is unacceptable.

                    You’re being argumentative over something that does not need to be argued about and ultimately fuels disdain because of this strange need to want to have a straight pride.

                    It’s the opposite, actually. I said it’s weird to have pride for something like that, be it gay or straight. They’re both weird in my view and I don’t see why would I ever be proud about my sexual preferences.

                    What am I supposed to be if not prideful and without shame of who I am? Pride is literally a valid antonym of shame. But let me know what your effective and concise alternative is to express that. Anything constructive that doesn’t sound ridiculous?

                    Why is it so important to express it? And even if it was, why can’t you just be “not ashamed”? It’s not a dichotomy. There are plenty of things about myself I’m not prideful nor shameful about, and my sexuality is one of them. You say “straight pride” doesn’t need to exist, but you don’t think that as a consequence they have to be ashamed about it, do you?

                    You may think you’re smart by slapping destructive and inaccurate labels like “logical fallacy” on a device that my community has used to fight back to get us to where we are.

                    The logical fallacy is in “proud of being gay” and “proud of being straight” meaning exactly the same thing but being viewed with diametrically opposite acceptations. I don’t think the entire LGBT rights movement is founded on that.

                    So let’s get there first, then.

                    Ok. I’m waiting and doing my part in voting for progressive parties in my country. Am I not allowed to make conjectures on the internet that in no way harm the progress your community is trying to achieve, in the meantime?

                    • by default a fallacy if we want both parties to be equal

                      But they're not equal and a good part of the world still doesn't want them to be equal. And that you have realize that you can most definitely have pride in being gay and also as a means to fight back homophobia that has absolutely nothing to do with "straight pride" because straights are not oppressed. You can't present your argument in a sterile environment when this word has history and has a live movement behind it. It's definitely not just being proud alone of which I have many reasons to be, but it's also about fighting back.

                      even suggesting it might be a slight problem in the far future is unacceptable

                      Yeah, and it's a wedge for a supposed future problem that you have imagined and are trying to create discussion about right now. Given the state of things with white supremacy and bigots on the rise, do you really think that kind of discussion is going to be welcomed? Like I said, if you're not LGBT you're not a targeted community for that specifically. I got my livelihood on the line and my mental health and I don't intend to give bigots one inch. Bad rhetoric breeds bad rhetoric so don't expect me to be tolerant of even breaching the subject that's not constructive in any way but comes across as blindly privileged if not a bit clueless.

                      I said it’s weird to have pride for something like that, be it gay or straight.

                      And that's fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that I've been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone can't see the bigger picture? In a sense, I'm being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument. I give up a powerful device that derives a sense of self-worth and community for nothing in return. It's ridiculous.

                      It's important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that we're still here and that we have numbers also matters. It's not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. I'm not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that there's an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories. Especially when we get so many horrible news from all over the world about queer people being murdered and get our rights taken away. I mean, just last week one of our openly queer magistrates from a state over and his partner were stabbed to death in their own residence after receiving death threats. And this is after another LGBT+ activist was murdered in cold blood back in July.

                      You say “straight pride” doesn’t need to exist, but you don’t think that as a consequence they have to be ashamed about it, do you?

                      I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because there's a need for it to exist, and that need isn't going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you don't feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights. I can't even describe nicely what it looks like for me to see you criticize from a comfortable chair in a sterile environment.

                      Am I not allowed to make conjectures on the internet that in no way harm the progress your community is trying to achieve, in the meantime?

                      You're allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesn't save anyone from the push back. My point is that it's a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and it's often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and that's my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.

                      • And that’s fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that I’ve been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone can’t see the bigger picture? In a sense, I’m being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument.

                        I’m not asking for you (or anyone) to do anything, I’m just discussing on the internet. If you think adapting the current situation to avoid the fallacy is not worth it, by all means do what you feel is better. Being straight and European I’m clearly less informed on the subject than you, so it makes sense that you would want to stick to your beliefs, I’m not surprised and I’m not bitter or anything about it. As we already said, the world has far worse problems than a speech fallacy skewed in favor of a heavily oppressed community.

                        It’s important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that we’re still here and that we have numbers also matters. It’s not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. I’m not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that there’s an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories.

                        Maybe I wasn’t clear enough about it earlier, but I have absolutely nothing against “Pride” as an event. I’ve never been to one but from stories, pictures and videos I’ve seen it seems like sort of a huge carnival spreading messages of acceptance and peace, that’s wonderful and I love that it’s happening. I was talking more about the idiom (my original comment wasn’t even about sexuality), and people saying they’re “proud of being (anything they were born as)”. I think I even discussed with another commenter how the event being called “Gay Pride” is something that’s set in stone and part of universal speech, so at this point it wouldn’t be worth it to rename it just to make it “slightly less controversial” (like the whole debate about “blacklist” or “male and female” adapters).

                        I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because there’s a need for it to exist, and that need isn’t going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you don’t feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights.

                        I know, it was just an example of how someone can feel neither shameful nor prideful about something.

                        You’re allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesn’t save anyone from the push back. My point is that it’s a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and it’s often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and that’s my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.

                        Sure, I never denied it being frivolous, and I tried discussing it on a place like Lemmy especially because if I did it in a less left-leaning community the comments would’ve just been filled with bigots turning my argument into an excuse to insult. In a place like this where mostly everyone knows there’s no gay lobby trying to control the world or anything, I feel like you can discuss these things in a more relaxed and detached way.

384 comments