Just witnessed this meeting of the minds on FB

That's Facebook for you. People love to complain about things that take them out of what they have gotten used to but the moment someone offers a possible solution they dig their heels in the sand.

They're essentially just shouting out and seeing how many people will absentmindedly agree and reaffirm their view point

They don't want a solution, they want to be mad.
Oh it's a standard social media echo chamber, and I'm well aware that we're in one here too. But at least here we aren't saying that the gas prices are a conspiracy done by the dEMoCrAtS!! Of course to them the only solution is to... have big government regulate gas prices, god forbid they think about alternatives
- I agree Facebook just specifically annoys me because it's a lot of dumb posts put out without forethought.
Facebook is the worst social media site of all where boomers and racist people shouting at each other. The best one can do is to delete themselves.
- I'd argue Twitter is worse because it seems more targeted and organized in a way. There's also the layer of anonymity.
  The best one can do is to delete themselves.
  Unfortunately a lot of people still insistence on using it for school and work

Not defending them, but if I can't afford a tank of gas I likely can't afford a whole new car. Hell I can afford a tank of gas and I still can't afford a new car.

For a while, with state and federal rebates, new EVs were ridiculously cheap but a lot of people didn't realize it. My brother leased a Nissan Leaf for my niece for $100 a month. I realize leasing isn't for everyone, but $100 a month for a car for a teenager is pretty damn reasonable until she can afford to buy something for herself.
- They're insanely cheap RIGHT NOW. lol
  You can get a used 2018-2020 Tesla (or any other brand) for $25k and then $4k back through a tax credit.
Yeah not a lot of second hand ev's out there to buy.
- Lots of them on Autotrader when I looked a week ago.
  The problem is, they still want $40k for a used EV.
- And then you need to consider how much battery capacity is left, pretty sure that's a really big cost to replace?

'The worlds changing and change scares me!'

"BUT WHERE DO THEY THINK THAT POWER EVEN COMES FROM!!????"

Well, if someone would spend two seconds thinking about it, renewable are a good investment. It's not like we want to stop burning coal today, but this argument gets me everytime.

Plus, burning fossil fuels in a dedicated generator in optimal conditions, then converting that to electricity, transferring that electricity over the grid to an electric car generates less emissions than burning it straight in an ICE engine to convert it into kinetic energy. Even if you ignore all the fossil fuels that are burned during extraction, transport and conversion before it gets to your local petrol station.
- Exactly. Even if you're not using renewables to charge your EV, they're still significantly more fuel efficient due to the gains you get from producing energy in a power plant instead of through a small engine. I read somewhere that an EV with a 300 mile range is using the same amount of fuel to charge as if you were burning 3 gallons of gasoline.
Yeah... The power for my EV comes from my solar panels. Both a great investment. Now that the electricity company is raising rates on electricity usage, I'm even happier with my decision.
The only thing coal has going for it is you can burn it when the sun is down and the wind has stopped. Solar makes more financial sense
"On average, the marginal cost for the coal plants is $36 each megawatt hour, while new solar is about $24 each megawatt hour, or about a third cheaper.,Only one coal plant – Dry Fork in Wyoming – is cost competitive with the new renewables."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/30/us-coal-more-expensive-than-renewable-energy-study

Republican moral compass makes an excellent ceiling fan

But gas prices are so high due to Biden lowering the supply by checks notes conditioning any expansion of renewable energy on first increasing the amount of federal land leased out for extraction of oil and gas many times over.

Huh. Guess BOTH parties are lying about him. Who'da thunk that the senator from MBNA (second biggest credit card company before being bought by Bank of America) would be on the side of big business? 🤔

gas prices are so high because biden ate all of it
I'm out of the loop here, had no clue that was a thing - sauce?
- It's part of the "inflation reduction act", the very bill the Dem leadership touted as saving the environment, even though most of the announced CO2 reductions are to come from the scam that is carbon capture

expired

Basically they've been told to hate it. The oil industry has spent millions pushing all kinds of misinformation to make sure we wouldn't move off oil, even if there are a million reasons beyond just global warming why it would be a great idea. We've known since the 70s that this would be an issue, and governments around the world have just all been ignoring the issue for half a century.
- Yeah, at first it was the "glorified golf cart" angle, but when Tesla proved that wasn't true, it turned into "they're too expensive", "ackthually they pollute more", "rare earths", etc... There will always be something.
Nearly 1 in 5 drivers or about 42 million people in the US can drive a stick. You have confused your peer group with everyone. Used manual cars are cheaper precisely because they are less in demand and cheaper to maintain to boot. Purportedly quality of automatic varies a lot which older cheaper cars being pretty shit. Remember when people are picking a car not everyone is picking from new mid tier new vehicles or last years models.
Idk if they’ll be any good, but I thought this was interesting as a manual car driver when I saw it.
Toyota, however, has patented a way to provide the look and feel of a manual transmission in an electric car. … The car's torque and performance will be altered as you "shift" to provide the feel of a gas-powered vehicle.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/electric-manual-transmission
I’d still switch to an EV either way once I have a way to charge it at home
I'm one of those people, I guess, but I'm not such a Luddite that I don't think electric is the way forward. Had to replace a very old car recently and low-end new was better than buying used. Bought a gas car that gets great fuel economy for a variety of very good reasons, but if I could have bought a Tesla made by Toyota/Honda, with huge range for economy car prices, I would probably have an EV.
Also worth noting: owning an EV is harder if you don't own a house you can install charging hardware in.
I will miss my manual transmission car. What do you not understand? I have a Honda Accord and the manual is what made it actually fun to drive. Feels so much more like driving, more engaged with what I am doing. Even my kid who resisted learning to drive it now always wants to take my car everywhere. This is likely my last gas powered car, a 2014 I bought new, but yes I love driving a manual shift car, never have I bought an automatic. Also clutch & manual gearbox so much cheaper to fix. When the automatic transmission fails, the car is basically totalled, and it will fail eventually.
I will miss my beloved manual shift car, yes.
- Driving an EV is like driving a single speed manual, not an automatic, especially if it has any amount of performance. The throttle response is instantaneous, no waiting for the torque converter, shifting, or power building. Also, when driving in a high regeneration mode, letting off the pedal feels like downshifting a gear or two. It’s super engaging and the instant response feels so smooth and natural.

long press, select all, copy/pasta

Got my 🅱️ig 🅱️rained takes here:

In many use cases, EVs are worse for the environment
Even in these cases, it might be better for the society in that pollution is no longer concentrated in towns and around roads but at power plants where mitigations can be centrally handled by solutions that can be made to scale
In many cases, EVs are far inferior. In many cases, ICEs are far inferior.
I wish I could afford an EV plox send monies

Absolute nonsense. EVs are better for emissions than ICE engines. And a cheaper over the life of the car.
From the Union of Concerned Scientists:
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/electric-vehicles-are-cleaner
- I think the poster above you is trying to say that the materials and operations involved in EV production are even worse than that of the ICE vehicles combined with the their post-manufacture emissions. As far as I understand, a completely electronic vehicle (not a hybrid) would produce no emissions of its own, compared to one with an internal combustion engine.
  But I understand equally little abort both.
- I made allowances for that in what I said my man 😎

What's awesome about this is when you drive a hybrid. All your power comes from gas or regenerative braking, but it's so efficient that it's still painful to the average Republican

There's no 'or', really. That kinetic energy you're capturing with regen braking, you got that by burning gas. All your energy comes from burning gas.
Unless it has a plug, it's a gas car.
- And if it's a plugin hybrid, it's the worst of both worlds.

Is Elon Musk good or bad in their eyes then?

Most seem to conveniently overlook that he has a company that produces EVs.
yes

Put the batteries in homes and save so so much more carbon.

https://youtu.be/SiRzpKWshwU?feature=shared

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The first world lifestyle/"American Dream" of everyone owning a car and living in a nice house is unsustainable in the first world itself, nevermind a world of 8 billion people. EVs or no EVs. If we want to actually start tackling global warming, these people need to get used to the idea of public transit.

I agree with you, and I take public transit whenever possible, but I'm willing to compromise on them getting an EV if they at least stop driving big stupid trucks to get groceries from the supermarket
- Yeah the big trucks suck and are pointless. Here in South Africa they keep making the Ford Ranger and Toyota Hilux bakkies bigger and bigger to try copy American trucks. Honestly only a matter of time before a Ford F-150 or Toyota Tundra model is available at a car dealership in South Africa. Also EVs won't get popular here until rolling electricity blackouts are solved, and since they've been an issue for 15 years now, it's not looking good.

EVs are for poor people? You mean these expensive cars that I couldn't even charge at home because I would need a house to do so?

I'd suggest you read it again. Might just clear some things up for you
- Ah yeah. Still a dumb argument as EVs can be pretty quick.
- Most states (the ones not pretending they can stop the sales of EVs with bans) have had infrastructure plans in motion for years already. It's coming.
EVs are rapidly getting cheaper. We do still need better charging infrastructure though

They think Gas is too expensive because of the red take and lack of drilling on federal lands (lack of new permits at least) I don't care much about EVS either. I mean, they just take pollution from one place to another and they are better on the environment, but you have drive it for a few years for them to be better on the environment. They are not going to solve climate change.

Public Transit is severely lacking, we need more trains and bicycle paths. Buses, yeah sure, why not. They are going to be diesel busses because Electronic busses don't make that much sense either.

Yeah I'm gonna be anti drilling in public lands and national parks on pretty much every front there.
And let's remember that just even though a solution isn't perfect, it doesn't mean it's a bad solution. EVs are not perfect. But they're better than continuing to burn fossil fuels. Then if something still better comes along we can upgrade again. Gas powered cars were not the first form of transit and EVs won't be the last form.
- That saving of gas on each stage of removing those third party for cars.
  I don't pretend to know all the answers, but don't you think scalability is a problem? I mean, for the EVS. I love EVS alright, but I don't think they are as scalable as we think they are. (Talking about mining minerals electricity and other stuff necessary for EVS here)
While you are right that EVs just move pollution from one place to another, that other place doesn't have to be a traditional power plant. If we are able to transfer to green energy, like wind, solar, or nuclear, those cars suddenly become a lot better for the environment.
As for drilling public lands, I strongly disagree. If we can build more green energy sources instead, we will become less reliant on oil and the prices might drop with lower demand. Drilling public land is a great way to ruin the area for years.
- If we are able to transfer to green energy, like wind, solar, or nuclear, those cars suddenly become a lot better for the environment
  Most of the countries we get minerals from aren't really stable, so I question how much investment in Green Energy we can actually do there knowing that ROI is not really guaranteed.
While yes they do move from one to another. Are you aware how stupidly inefficient car engines are and the amount of fuel used to transport the petrol/diesel to each and every gas station?
That saving of gas on each stage of removing those third party for cars.
- I know gas powered engines have been for a long time, but do you think there's anything we can do to make it more efficient?
EVs ARE a fad I think, hybrids are pretty cool as far as cars go. And that's not too far, because personal cars are terrible in general and should be outlawed, but that's besides the point. Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you just said.
- EVs are kind of a fad (although they are cool though)
  But, you lost me at personal cars should be outlawed. I think that would be disastrous for old folk and the economy

It's possible to have both opinions.

The solution is cheap gas. Covers all points, unfortunately we don't live in a world where the oil conglomerates care about you, so we get the expensive gas.

There's also CO2 emissions, climate change, smog, the fact that it's a depleting resource...
- Oh, I'm not endorsing that mindset. I'm just explaining it.
  I'm all for everything renewable, but in the process of making things more renewable, we have to keep an eye on things being repairable too. Increasingly, we have sealed devices (phones, TVs, microwave ovens, etc) that are difficult to repair at best and impossible to repair at worst. I understand that for some things, the majority of the cost is in the circuit board, so when something goes wrong with that (or it's hopelessly outdated, or inefficient or whatever), then it's time to replace, but often the circuit board shares fate with most of the rest of the device, so if the battery fails, or the screen or input system isn't working, etc, then a perfectly good/working device (besides the main malfunction) is thrown away because it doesn't work and nobody wants to fix it.
  There's always a market for newer stuff, like the latest iPhone/Android/tablet/car/TV/whatever.... But older stuff shouldn't be forced into the landfill just because the power connector is damaged beyond usefulness.... It's stupid and wasteful.
  I think Tesla is deranged, half for the walled garden they've been fostering against other car manufacturers, and even EVs, but also because they replace whole modules on the slightest issue. Got a leaky fitting, whelp, gonna have to replace half the mass of the car just to fix it. Stupid. Just stupid.
  IMO, it's not enough that the things we have are reusable/renewable, is it any better if we pay for reusable bags (as an example) that are only good for 3-4 trips to the shop, when they cost 5x as much and create 5x as much waste in the process? How does that make any sense? It's like trying to put out a fire with hotter fire.
  Therein lies my dilemma, a lot of these things sound great on the surface, but the data isn't there to support the claims. Not as far as I can see. We all agree that reusable bags are better than one-time-use plastic, sure, but is it actually doing any good? On top of that, I used to re-use plastic shopping bags for cleaning up after my pets, and for waste bins in the kitchen and bathroom, which now I have to pay extra to buy bags for those reasons specifically, which saves me nothing, and probably costs more in the long run, even if I paid 5-10 cents a bag at the registry for that plastic.... IDK, I haven't run the numbers on it. Add to that, how the hell am I supposed to pick up dog shit or scoop cat litter without a disposable bag? Apart from the financial cost, is there a practical way to do this without having to clean shit off of things, or myself?
  For me, there's a lot more to consider than what marketing is going to lead you to believe. But I could literally rent about it for the better portion of the day, which is why my earlier response was so concise, because I didn't want to launch into a lecture.
If you're "solution" is for big government to come in and use our tax dollars to artificially reduce the price of the fuel that is already obsolete and actively destroying our planet, then I don't think it's a great solution.
A better solution is to work on getting off of the obsolete fuel source and work towards better ones. EVs do exactly that. Embrace new ideas, don't cling to outdated ones.
- Oh, that's not my solution.
  I'm just saying that there is a solution that would be satisfactory to those who think this way. I have an 11 year old ICE car that's remarkably fuel efficient. The average cost of gas has driven my usual fill up about $20. I used to be able to fill up for a bit over $40, now I'm paying a bit shy of $60 for the same thing. I'm largely unaffected. I suspect the loudest people complaining about gas prices drive F150 and larger engined vehicles.... Where a 50% uptick in cost, is more like $70. They don't go any farther on a tank than my little 1.5L 4cyl can, they just pay more because TRUCK.
  See, I get down voted frequently because I approach issues from a neutral perspective, and I can see the arguments on both sides and make very neutrally biased comments... Then people brigade in thinking I'm making a statement, which I didn't and never meant to imply, and my vote count goes straight to hell for it.
  I'm literally only pointing out that there is a solution that satisfies all parties. Which isn't to say, nor imply that either I think that should happen, or will happen, or even if I think it's a good idea to pursue. Yet, everyone likes to draw conclusions on what I think for simply pointing out that there are facts to the matter.
  For the record, I'm very much in favor of EVs. I'm not convinced that Tesla's way of doing things is the right way, but I have to give them credit for basically proving the naysayers wrong, and making EVs viable above all questioning. Both for consumer transportation and now they're going after trucks and they inspired Ford to put out the F-150 lighting. That's progress. There's bigger fish to fry than consumer vehicles, even just talking about the transportation sector, but I'll refrain from commenting further on it since it is not material to the point. What is material to the point is that EVs are a good step in the right direction.
  The oil industry has tried to kill EVs for a long time, and they were successful for a long time until Tesla shook things up. The oil companies had no real way to fight against Tesla making EVs.... Now that electric vehicles have proven themselves, there's no looking back. EVs will be the way forward. Battery tech might change, and the way we charge them may change, hell, even how we store energy for use may be completely different (like with fuel cell EVs).... Who knows? But cars driven by electric motors will not be going away. Anyone in opposition needs to either get on board or get out of the way, because they're on the wrong side of history.
  There were people that opposed "horseless carriages" back in the day too.... We all know how that worked out.

keep this shit out of here. ! politicalmemes@lemmy.world exists.

(And I personally blocked it)

Actually I just made an apolitical memes community, so everything here HAS to be political now. Sorry!

Gas is too expensive!

EVs are not ready for the broad market. Sure, they work fine for getting to work and running some errands, but I wouldn't trust going on long road trips with them yet. Plus, changing the batteries when they wear out is wayyyyy too expensive, might as well buy a new vehicle at that point.

Have any sources to back up your claims?
According to KBB, the average American drives around 37 miles per day. That means that the overwhelming amount of driving could be accomplished by a plug-in hybrid, let alone a fully electric vehicle. When it comes to the occasional long road trip (what, once a year or less for the average person?), is it worth burning - and paying for - gas for the thousands of miles that could be easily covered by even the most pathetic of electric vehicles' range without issue just so you can save a bit of time pumping fuel and hitting the convenience store rather than stopping a bit longer to charge up? In those cases, it may even be cheaper to rent a gas vehicle for the occasional road trip if if is that big of a concern for you.
Your use case may be different than mine, but I can't think of too many trips where I couldn't stop for a half hour here and there to charge up a bit. Most people, especially people with kids, have to stop periodically anyway, so use that time to charge up and you won't even notice. It's true that, especially in the particularly sparsely-populated western United States (speaking from a US perspective), some route planning may still be required, but that will get better as more people buy EVs.
Why are battery swaps even entering the conversation? Are engine swaps a concern for most people purchasing a new car? According to J. D. Power, every EV in the US comes with at least an 8 year or 100k mile warranty on the battery. Some manufacturers, like Hyundai, have a lifetime warranty on the battery. Most batteries are expected to last somewhere between 100k - 200k miles, which is often longer than the rest of the car will hold up and certainly competitive with combustion vehicles.
If you want a serious argument detailing a real struggle with which EV manufacturers and the market/government must contend, then here you go: apartment dwellers. From a US perspective, you pretty much have to own your home or work somewhere that provides charging parking spots to be able to fully take advantage of the benefits of an EV. While using a public charger is a viable option, it is more expensive than charging at home (though, in my research, it is still cheaper than gas).
EVs make sense for a super-majority of the driving that takes place today by normal people in North America. If you don't own your home, want to tow a boat, or travel hundreds of miles a day on a regular basis, then EVs will serve your needs somewhere between "fairly well" to "not at all".
If "range anxiety" is the only thing keeping people from pulling the trigger on an EV, I strongly suggest they consider the possibility of renting a car for the rare cross-country trip if finding a DC fast charger every once and a while and spending a little extra time at each stop isn't a viable option for them.
Most EVs hold a charge for over 400 miles, that's the same as a tank of gas now. For the vast, vast majority of Americans that will do for most of their driving habits. Most Americans commute to work and run errands around their house, even on busy days most Americans won't come close to 200 miles in a single day. Charging every night at home then makes it very reasonable.
For myself, we're a 2 car house, one EV and one gas, and gas is only used now for those (very rare) long journeys. Even those though are so rare that honestly renting a car is a valid alternative (while we're building the charging infrastructure).
The only real excuses right now are if you
regularly drive over 400 miles in one trip, so for most people that's across their entire state, and plan on not being able to charge at all in the middle (which, if you're on the interstates now is pretty much a non-issue, and remember you can always rent a car if you're going on a super long road trip too if you're really worried about it. Even in the Midwest that was maybe once or twice a year that I went on road trips long)
Rent or live where you can't install an EV charger in your home. This is a valid one, and I hope we start pushing for chargers in rental properties.
- Not only are the points you made on EV good, but you can also fill up an EV at home. You never have to leave the house in the morning without a full tank ever again.
- Ha, we posted around the same time and said basically the same thing. Nice!
- I'm a proponent of EVs and I'm looking forward to getting one at some point but "most" EVs don't hold a charge for over 400 miles. Many are offered with a high range option that almost meets this mark, but that's also under ideal conditions. I have several coworkers with EVs and we talk a lot about the range effects in the winter, or in hilly areas, etc.
  Also you'd have to be crazy to plan out a trip that depletes your battery all the way, so that wouldn't be for a 400 mile trip.
  One thing that's turning me off from EVs (currently) is the constant battling over charging standards. This creates more uncertainty than I'd like.
- Towing and cold weather also play an important factor in the range as well.
It takes me 28 hours to drive from South Florida to New Hampshire in my EV instead of 24 like Google says. That would probably be 25 hours with gas stops though. And it's actually kind of nice to get out and walk around while it's charging, especially since I bring my dog. Maybe other routes are worse for charging? I haven't had any issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm_ASm2zfs
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