During the lead up to the Holocaust did the N... regime just kidnap people who they even thought were Jews? Kind of like ICE is doing to citizens today?
As there are not many useful answers here yet, let me try.
From 1933 on, the N...-Regime* required a so called "Aryan certificate" (Ariernachweis) from employees in the public sector. Who and what is Aryan is a debate by itself so I will leave this out, but Jews were a group that were explicitly excluded from that group.
So how would you get this certificate? You needed to proof this with the birth and/or marriage certificates of your ancestors, specifically those of your parent and your grand parents. In special cases you needed even more (like applying for SS/NSDAP), but in general that was it.
Now, the authority issuing these certificates are the Standesämter (Civil registration offices), but they did only issue then from 1876 in the areas on the right of the river Rhine and from about 1807/1815 in the left of the Rhine. This has to do with Napoleon, but that's a story for another day. Now before the Standesamt, it was basically the protestant and catholic churches that recorded births/baptisms, marriages and deaths and they were required to do so by law. So the churches had to actively help with those certificates.
It was not always a clear line, as obviously, you cannot see if someone is a Jew (even if some very stupid people thought so back then). Also, if as a Jew, your great grand kids were baptized as Christians, they were officially of Aryan origin. So even if the Nazis talked a lot about race, it was more a decision based on religion.
But like I said, this was only required for people working in the public sector and education, but also doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. (which were a couple of millions as you can imagine).
From 1935, with the Nuremberg laws (also called Nuremberg Race laws), every German was required to get an Aryan certificate. However, in 1935 the life as a Jew In Germany was already very hard and complicated, these laws basically stripped them from their last rights that were left. The story is much, much longer and I really recommend you to read about it for example in Wikipedia, as it is excellently documented.
*or Nazi-Regime how I am calling it (because this is not some kind of Lord-Voldemort-Situation)
Edit: I forgot to answer your last question! No, not like ICE in the US. The circumstances are not comparable, and the Antisemitism In Germany was much more systematic and pseudoscientifically profound. Like there were whole disciplines of sciences researching why and which race was better than the other, which resulted from the race theories in the 19the century.
There are definitely parallels and I know Americans are suffering under the fascist regime that is developing at the moment. I am not an expert of US domestic politics, but if I see it correctly, the way ICE is conduction their hunt on humans is unlawful, while the German persecution of Jews was particularly promoted by the German judical system. However, I am not a historian and I guess there are others who are better able to compare these things. As a German, there is something what we call Uniqueness in the context of the Holocaust, which was always the total and absolute aim of the persecution of Jews.
You can say "Nazi". When I first read that title I filled in a different N-word and was very confused.
Naggers, right?
Nagging used to be hardcore
There was a “n——r regime?”
When Hitler took power in 1933, he didn't actually start with the Jews, & they weren't kidnapped off the streets. The first concentration camp was at Dachau, & the first prisoners were political enemies - trade unionists (union organizers and members), Socialists & Communists. [Conveniently, not only were these groups Hitler's political enemies, each was a group used to working with it's own large membership to accomplish their goals; by imprisoning these people, Hitler not only neutered the political opposition, but he struck a heavy blow against civilian resistance as well.] Originally, they were simply arrested & disappeared, but yes, eventually the Gestapo became increasingly aggressive & did plain kidnappings.
Dachau was originally intended as a prison camp, but it needed to be expanded very quickly to accommodate all the newly arriving prisoners, & the ever-efficient Nazis (remember, they came to power because of the onerous penalties inflicted by the Treaty of Versailles, - the world was in the Great Depression, so the government really couldn't afford to spend any money) decided the best way to build out the camp was to not-spend much money doing that. Instead of hiring outside workers (who might also bring out word of conditions in the camp, be inclined to transmit messages/contraband in & out of the camp, & potentially hear messages of solidarity from union workers), they decided to have the prisoners build out the camp instead. And why pay the prisoners, when they should be glad to be getting their lodging & food provided for them? The camps were destined to become slave labor camps.
Some companies, still in the throes of the Depression, & with some portion of their workforce now inside the camps & no immediate candidates to replace them, asked the German government if they could hire workers from the camps. The government agreed. The companies got cheap labor & stopped struggling in the Depression, the government got the money to spend on governing, & life improved for those outside the camps - you just had to ignore the camps & slaves themselves. And over time, other industrial-scale companies that didn't have skilled workers in the camps turned to hiring other workers from the camps; if they didn't they couldn't compete in the marketplace.
Meanwhile, having neutered the political opposition, the Nazis started turning to "undesirables". Even here, the immediate targets weren't the Jews; the next targets were gypsies (Roma & Sinti), gay men, & Jehovah's Witnesses, all of whom were thought to be "soiling" German civil society. Lesser targets who didn't always end up in the camps included immigrants & the homeless; & later targets also included people with mental /physical disabilities, & in some cases just abnormalities (ie, dwarves).
Please note that I'm not saying that the Jews weren't being targeted by the government & civilians, just that in the early days of the Hitler regime, those actions were a series of increasingly restrictive laws & increasingly-frequent/severe stochastic attacks encouraged by the government. However, Jews originally weren't interned in the camps to the scale they were imprisoned later on; they were "encouraged" to emigrate. The major turning point against the German Jews is generally accepted as Kristallnacht (Night of the Broken Glass), in 1938, five years after Hitler took power.
Remember that, in the 1930's, the majority of formal political & economic organizing was done by men, so the majority of the original prisoners were also men. The government did imprison women & children, but not originally at the scale later seen, so the imprisoned women & children were a necessary burden to "cleanse" German society. It was only after Germany started World War II by invading Poland (1939), that things turned dire.
In the newly-occupied territories, yes, the occupying forces kidnapped & killed/imprisoned those suspected of being enemies of the Germans, or just against what Germans thought their society approved of. They established camps for those they targeted in occupied territories, & forced occupied Jews into ghettoes, which were eventually "liquidated" either directly (mass killings) or indirectly (the people in the ghettoes sent to camps).
The camps became a problem. Established quickly, there were too many people to properly feed or care for. Medical attention was essentially non-existent. Conditions in the camps meant that diseases periodically ripped through the populations there. Since the Germans determined to imprison everyone in their target groups, that included young children, the very old & infirm, the chronically ill, etc. The camps became crowded, with a noticable percentage of people who simply couldn't work to "earn their keep". In merciless fascist logic, it was more "efficient" to kill those people and direct whatever meagre resources they were willing to allot to the camps to go their slave laborers.
[cont]
And when one of their slaves became too ill or malnourished to work, there was a seemingly unending stream of other slaves to replace them.
End comments:
I don't think I made it clear in my previous comment (and it's up against the character limit, so I'm not going to go back and try to edit), that the camps inside Germany itself generally were intended as labor camps, with extermination as an eventual side-effect of the existing and incoming prisoners; and the camps outside Germany - particularly those in Poland - were established as extermination camps, with slave labor as a minor byproduct.
Also, my comment is obviously a vast, vast simplification of a process that developed over years.
And having finished my comment, I realize I went way beyond your original question, but IMO the slow development of oppression and extermination, as well as focusing beyond the Jewish people to the other six million who were murdered in the camps, is also of value. It's why we need to focus on the groups currently being targeted by the government - not only immigrants and the trans community, but the LGBT+ community in general, the homeless, the disabled, etc. And yes, even the Democrats - the anti-Democrat language and propaganda being pumped out by the more extreme "news" channels and influencers is very similar to type of language that tends to precede civilian uprisings and ethnic cleansing against other segments of their population - see the massacres in Kosovo or Rwanda as an example.
Do you mean the Nazis?
You know you can type Nazi right?
Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi
You can say Nazi here.
The Jews were pretty far down on the list in actuality. The first people they went for were the queer people and trans people, then it was the communists, and then the socialists, and then the labor unions, and then the Jews after that, then any Germans who opposed hitler. They started from the smallest and worked their way up.
This.
There were 11 million people murdered in the Holocaust. Only 6 million of those were Jews. The other 5 million were the groups you mentioned, in addition to the disabled, mentally ill, Roma and other undesirables.
Nearly half of the people murdered in the Holocaust were other minorities.
Sick
This needs to be the top reply
Why are do many of these internet historians leaving us out? Don't forget the physically and mentally disabled!
They used us to test their murder logistics! WTF!
Yeah it's fucked.
This is not YouTube, you can say nazi here.
I'm genuinely curious: Why censor the word "Nazi"?
In Germany it was a slow build up of laws basically bleeding the resources from the Jews.
Once Germany invaded Russia the slaughter began in Ernest in Germany and for a short time Jews and other persecuted classes were safer in Germany than in the parts of Russia Germany was conquering.
As for the exact date that “The Final Solution” started and the Germany’s abandoned all pretenses is debated but it is sad to say it was going full steam by 1941.
Jews were less than 1% of the German population, not even 500k.
ICE is curb stomping 20-30% of the US population ... currently.
Not really at this scale. According to history, I'd say that even victims of false allegations to the Gestapo during the war years got more diligent investigation, due process, rule of law, and a genuine attempt to find the truth than the people ICE accuses of being illegal immigrants today. Under the Nazis, some crimes like "listening to foreign radio" were notoriously difficult to determine the truth of and of course miscarriages of justice certainly happened regularly, but depending on what you were accused of as long as you were a loyal Nazi and weren't actually guilty of serious crimes like "friendship to the jews" (/s) you had little to fear from the Gestapo in Nazi Germany. And this is why people were so keen to regularly and performatively prove they were in fact "loyal Nazis", they felt it would protect them from retribution.
However we also have to remember that the laws they were following were so deliberately unjust it also has to be understood in that context. The Gestapo and the people didn't HAVE to do anything other than rigorously and consistently following the laws to be unjust, because the laws themselves were so unjust. The regime had already created the fascist state they wanted, with little resistance from most and thunderous applause by many. They were actually much further along the path of fascism and racism and Naziism by then than the USA is now. It is fascinating to see the parallels with modern day, but also important to see the differences.
This is neither a defense or apologism for ICE, any more than it is for the Nazis; they have both committed horrible violations of fundamental human rights and have done and wish to do great evil, but it is important to understand the different situations and the different stages they are at. Trump and his regime may be acting dictatorial but they are not yet actually dictators. They are misusing and abusing laws and justifications and courts to perform fascist actions but they have not yet created an actually fascist police state they can exist comfortably in. Yet. They are working their way there, but they are weaker than they appear, that's why they have to keep hiding the resistance and making demonstrations of how strong they want you to believe they are. They are more scared of you than they are letting on. And they should be.
Why are you censoring nazi? Aren't we all adults here?
You can say Nestle on Lemmy. That's what we're talking about right?
What's the N...Regime? Are you guys talking about Nazis and self censoring for some reason?
Actually, no. They were far better organized. Initially, you had to get an Arier-Nachweis (certificate of being aryan) to do a lot of things, and Jews and others were excluded from getting those.
Then, later, they basically took anyone without a certificate.
But those were before dna tests so it was pretty flawed. So I’d say the answer is “kinda ya”. If they didn’t believe you then you were Jewish.
That is an accurate description of what happened then and now. The only difference still are death camps.
It just appears the death camps are just being outsourced by this regime. El Salvador, etc.
Don't even have to go that far I'm still suspicious of the thousands of people not found in Alligator Alcatraz
I was worried about this with CECOT but I think most everyone ended up being released from there? Does anyone know if other American deportees are still being held there?
Unfortunately, I’ve seen very little reporting on other foreign prison camps, so I don’t know what the conditions there are like and who is being held vs released etc. I know some prisoners were released by Costa Rica and allowed to claim asylum there but I believe others are still being held.
Someone in the media really needs to dig into this more. Or if anyone has seen such reporting, please link it.
They didn't start with death camps, that came later when the camps were full and they needed a "final solution"
Historically death camps tend to start out as mere camps, but then suddenly they are full of people who are deemed unwanted anyway and keeping them alive is expensive and difficult so why bother.
On its current trajectory there's no US camp that shouldn't be expected to turn into a death camp. And as others have pointed out, thousands "missing" from a huge, poorly managed camp in the middle of a swamp is worrying to say the least.
Americans today are like Germans in the 30s, watching the trains roll by.
There were other reasons behind the switch. SS troops were beginning to become unhappy from shooting large numbers of people. Plus, it consumed a lot of ammunition. And they realized the large pits full of bodies would be found and the world would realize what they had done. The death camps solved all these problems and as bonus were much more efficient.
The N... regime?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xc39s7_Iwo8
For fucks sake, start talking English and stop censoring be very word!
Yeah, N word is a slur for National socialists, we have to stop discriminating them, right OP?
They worked towards this using the Nuremberg Laws and the Kennkarte. Most Jews identified themselves as Jewish because the alternative was worse.
Anyways, suspicion was good enough to jail possible Jews. And it got worse and worse in the lead up to the war.
They didn't bother with the pretext. They disappeared gays, Blacks, and political dissidents as well as Jews. No outgroup was safe.
There probably were random kidnappings.
But they only allowed Jews to live in ghetto's in Nazi cities, so they knew exactly where to go. From there they were indiscriminate and retaliatory. But there was segregation before the mass deportation of Jews.
Also it was about the purity of the german blood and shit like that, so there were more allegations for people to be considered degenerate enough to be deported. Gays, gypsies, removedation, whatnot.
It was a process. They started by forbidding Jews from holding certain jobs like doctors, judges, lawyers and and also public jobs. They then passed the Nuremberg Laws that restricted citizenship to "full-blooded" Germans only and made it mandatory for Jews to wear specific marks on their clothes that marked them as Jewish (the yellow Star of David was one but there were others). Then they required Jews to live only in specific parts of cities, the ghettos. The last step just consisted of them coming and grabbing everyone from the ghettos and everyone that was wearing the marks, the groundwork had been already set.
You can say Nazi on the Internet.
Maybe he's getting the rules mixed up with the other N-word.
Naggers?
Not if you're a dumbass.
I disagree and as proof I offer ... pretty much any comment section.
Check which sub you're in lol
Some would say the internet was made to say Nazi on.