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1y ago

🇪🇺 How the EU Feels about

Context: Chat Control 2.0: EU governments set to approve the end of private messaging and secure encryption

"By making a minor concession EU governments hope to find a majority next week to approve the controversial 'chat control' bill. According to the proposed child sexual abuse regulation (CSAR), providers of messengers, e-mail and chat services would be forced to automatically search all private messages and photos for suspicious content and report it to the EU. To find a majority for this unprecedented mass surveillance, the EU Council Presidency proposed Tuesday that the scanners would initially search for previously classified CSAM only, and even less reliable technology to classify unknown imagery or conversations would be reserved to a later stage. The proposed „deal“ will be discussed by ambassadors tomorrow and could be adopted by ministers next week."

Source: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chat-control-2-0-eu-governments-set-to-approve-the-end-of-private-messaging-and-secure-encryption/

62 comments

A law like this would violate the rights of all EU citizens. The courts would (should!) strike this law down immediately
- I sure hope the courts toss that thing. It would be the single worst violation of peoples privacy since the internet became a thing. It's incredible that lobbyists and police unions have this much impact on policy creation.
  
  Almost as if in _bourgeoisie democracy other interest groups have more influence in policy making than normal voters
- Yeah, just like the "Upload Filters"
  Poor Axel Voss showed everyone how much of a media company removed he is just to get his biggest lifetime achievement taken down by the EU court because those filters could result in censorship (something that literally everybody told the supporters would happen)
- The courts very likely will strike something like this down, but the people responsible know this. Court dealings can take years and during this time our privacy gets violated ~~and some kind of profit is made~~.
  And even when this law is declared illegal the existing data will likely be kept, only new collection is stopped (happened in Germany)
  
  I wish people who proposes laws and regulations that violates human rights with provable intent to do just that would be fined or imprisoned.

1: "... and then we'll be able to stop terrorist attacks. Simple".
2: “ok but if you put a back door into encryption, won't others be able to find it?"
1: "no we'll be the only ones with the key. Great huh?“
2: "and you don't think the key will be leaked or be hacked?"
1: "I said we'll be the only ones with the key."
2: "so what's your plan to make sure the key stays secure"
1: "..."
2: "what's your contingency plan if the key *is * hacked or leaked?"
1:"..."
1: "I SAID WE'LL BE THE ONLY ONES WITH THE KEY. "
2: "..."
1: "don't you want to protect our children ??"
- I never seen it summarized so fucking well. And meanwhile, it happens CONSTANTLY, but they pretend it's impossible to happen and never has actually happened
  
  With quantum computing around the corner that key is useless. So not only is my data then shared with the EU, china and US will also have a little look
- And even that's only in the optimistic situation where you can always fully trust "1", also in the future.

This seems to be a general theme. Those arguing loudest for better privacy are really saying "only we should be allowed to invade your privacy". See: Google, Apple, the EU
- It's such a shame though, since as far as I know, the EU have had such an amazing track record. I'd expect no less from big tech, but not the EU.
  
  because (I firmly believe that) it won't get passed. The Commission doesn't have a majority yet, and it will be laughed out of the EUP. EVEN IF the EUP votes to pass it, the ECJ ought to step in, because the UNCHR and the European Data Protection Supervisor have already said that it goes against the (human(!)) right of privacy. There is no shot that this will get implemented by 27 member states.

Criminals aren't going to be using services that comply anyways. They'll have their own underground ones. This is just a violation of regular citizens rights.

This is a level of bullshit that will straight up make me vote to leave the EU.
Outlawing E2EE should just not be a thing. It just shouldn't.
- As if European state governments aren't also stupid and would come up with this idea.
  The EU sucks sometimes but where ever you live in the EU your gov would totally come up with this on their own...
  
  Obviously. The point is that it's the kind of thing that will make me reject the very society I'm living in, and I would change it wholly to avoid this.
  If the source was my own government, for the first time in my life, I'd be considering moving to a new country.
  
  I will just remind yall that an state in the EU has admitted to having access to the Pegasus spyware.
  Pegasus is a program that is used by services combating crime and corruption in many countries...It would be bad if the Polish services did not have this type of tool
  Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the leader of the ruling Law and Justice party as quoted by the Verge (first article I found)
  He is also quoted as saying that claims that Pegasus had been used against political opponents are "utter nonsense".
  The Polish controversy was started when the spyware was found on a opposition members phone.
  The Law and Justice party, according to polls (and some Poles), is set to win the largest number of seats in tomorrows election, though they might struggle to form a government.
  We are doomed aren't we.
  
  UK has been trying to push this for the last 2 years the moment we left the EU
- Well, this is being implemented in the UK separately so I wouldnt be too hasty
  
  Honestly, they could at least wait and see what happens in the UK before proposing something similar. They literally have a free guinea pig next door.
  
  Not really surprising, though
- One could think you're proposing this as an alternate solution. It's not. And Brexit is the biggest proof.
  That said implementing backdoors is so backwards it's creative in the worst way. You basically prepare the tools for a rogue government, rogue government employee, or a knowledgeable malicious actor to grab secure information from the silver plater. It's the dumbest shit.
  
  No shit. Only reason I bring it up is as a way to illustrate how badly I do not want this.
  What a world we live in, when there's a possibility my use of a private matrix server between family, might become criminal.
  
  One could think you're proposing this [leaving the EU] as an alternate solution. It's not. And Brexit is the biggest proof.
  This is not a random thing thrown around, though it should be noted that those more involved in this side of "EU bad" usually advocate for remaking the EU, due to the deep systemic issues rather than leaving it. I believe a more mainstream version of this idea is given a stage by Macron (AFAIK he mostly wants to remove the requirement for every country to agree to some things), but moreso from this angle some Pirate Parties (PPP for example) advocate for it.
  Quote from PPP's programee (translated by yours truly, though I focused on translating it as directly as possible so it might sound a bit weird):
  More democracy for Europe
  We, Pirates, call for a writing of a new EU treaty, which will replace all existing treaties, remove uncertainties and respond to the need of a democratic reform in the EU. This treaty must be accepted by the citizens of the EU via a referendum.
  While this is quite different to "we should leave the EU" it reflects the concerns of those who say that due to policies like this. As far as I know, Brexit was caused more by Brits not liking economic policies of the European Union, though I am not that knowledgeable about UK politics.
  TL;DR: you can say EU bad while still wanting an EU I guess.

iT's fOr yOuR kiDs sAfEtY!!1!1!1! As much as I like being in EU, I hate this and hope it doesn't pass.
- Honestly Europe is pretty overrated. I know it varies from country to country, but my experiences in Sweden were nothing but disappointments. People here nut their pants over the positives while completely ignoring the many negatives.
  
  In Czech Republic it's kinda opposite. People nut their pants over paper straws and Coca-Cola caps you can't remove and they completely ignore the bilions of euros EU gave us (there are the built from EU funds signs basically everywhere). Also some populist politicians saw the oportunity in this and for example our ex premier now makes cringe Tik-Toks where he shits on EU and green deal, even though he was the premier and his party leading goverment when the green deal was approved and he wasn't against it. Now he says how EU is bad and how it's fault of current government. This was one example, but there are many czech politicians trying to milk the general dissatisfaction with EU, making it even worse.
  
  You can't tell me when or when not to nut my pants!

With a little knowledge, it's not very hard to make your own messaging app and share it with those you know. And there's plenty projects online that give you what you need without having to write the code yourself. Alternatively, there's just plenty dark web and under the radar apps already that won't bend to this ruling.
What it is, though, is very inconvenient and annoying to do so.
But if you're an actual criminal, then there is this solution here that can never be subject to this ruling.
So what this clearly means is that the EU will violate the privacy of all the everyday people that don't handle that inconvenience, pushing the serious criminals to dark channels.
- This law has nothing to do with CSAM or child abuse prevention. "Think of the Children" is just an effective rallying point because, of course, no one wants to come out against it publicly. The Surveillance State grows.
- But if you're an actual criminal, then there is this solution here that can never be subject to this ruling.
  To be fair, AFAIK criminals often use insecure means of communication already so my guess is that this will result in more criminals not putting in the effort to set up/use an encrypted communication network.
  However this is 1. probably not something any person who made that law knew 2. a bullshit excuse anyway.

Well they can go fuck themselves. Even if they pass it and messenger or whatsapp start (as in they totally dont already) scanning your chats and snitching I wonder how they are going to force other messaging services to comply.
- They can't. It's unenforceable.
  
  I'd imagine if, say Signal, refuses to comply and gets banned from the EU, one could always use a VPN. I think that nothing short of either a full global ban or implementing a version of The Great Wall of China would allow these ridiculous laws to be enforced. Even then, there will always be ways around it for those willing to go the extra mile.

Here's what this bill does for children: reduces pedos from sharing images of them yay! Here's also what it does for Children: un-encrypts their chats so pedos know what they are doing, where they are, who they are with, what they like, their vulnerabilities and much much more. Trading safety for a viewing crackdown. Congratulations

Friendly reminder it's never about consumer rights. It's about who is in control of the data.
A question you can all ask yourself. Despite the warts in both who would you rather control your data (you have no choice here. Someone is controlling your data and it is not you)
A. Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc.
B. Government
You'll get strong answers either way. Personally I'd rather the government strictly from an accountability perspective but that also warrants governments not electing shitheads which unfortunately the world is leaning towards with these populist right wing politicians gaining favour.
- It can be you. It doesn't have to be Big Corps or Government. It can be federated instances, it can be self-ownership of data, it can be E2E encrypted.
- A, by a goddamn long shot. If google mistakenly thinks I've advocated for a crime against a massive corporation, they'll remove my account and ban me from their services. If the government mistakenly thinks I've advocated for a crime against a massive corporation, they'll arrest me and ruin my life. Microsoft doesn't give a shit if you acquired the 1s and 0s that comprise a popular TV show without paying for them. The government will fine you more than the average person will make in their entire life.
  It also depends on where you live. Facebook doesn't care if you're gay or trans, if anything that's valuable monetizable data about you. Iran will straight up fucking kill you.
  
  Tbf in this scenario, google reports you to the police. You get arrested in either scenario.
- NEITHER.
- This one is completely about the people who pretend to "care about the children" but coincidentally also sell the software that does the proposed CSAM scanning. It's a money making-scheme for them. Shit like this makes me lose the last bit of hope I have for democracy (really hard to not put this into quotes by this point ... +__+).
- The privacy tech is so robust and easily available right now that anyone could spend a few days and replace their everything with privacy focused alternative while still maintaining a solid experience.

We need to collect the list of names of every politican and such who has advocated for this. These humans are dangerous to society, and we need to be on the lookout regarding what are they doing next. We also need to raise awareness about them so that given the chance, they can be removed from positions of power.
- Somebody must have already... anyone did any googling?
- Start dumping any and all data of theirs that can be dredged up

i live in the EU, it makes me angry

In their defence they don’t actually care about your privacy they just want to hold onto power. The cookie thing is getting ahead before everything starts to shit itself from a private companies destroying privacy perspective. This stuff is for governments to look good and they are notorious for thinking they won’t fuck this up even though they always do.

What the actual fuck...

Learning from the "friends" on the other site of the atlantic!

this seems like a sus link HAHAHA! WE GOT THEM NOW! CLICK
Never going to give you up

GOD DAMMIT GARY this is the 12th time today!

Fairly fucking sure this is a nothingburger like Art. 13-17 was, and will not break E2EE messengers.
The reason:
Encryption plays an essential role in securing communications. The international human rights law test of legality, necessity and proportionality should be applied to any measures that would affect encryption. Both the UN Commissioner for Human Rights[1]and the European Data Protection Supervisor[2]have concluded that the EU’s proposal for a regulation on child sexual abuse material fails this test[3].
A recent article published by Wired[4]described a European Council survey of Member States’ views on regulating encryption. In its response to the survey, Spain stated that there should be legislation prohibiting EU-based service providers from implementing end-to-end encryption.
Requiring platforms and device manufacturers to build back doors to facilitate law enforcement access would make everyone more susceptible to malicious hacking from criminals and foreign adversaries alike[5]. Measures allowing public authorities to access the content of communications affect the essence of the right to privacy.
1.Which encryption experts did the Commission consult when preparing its proposal for a regulation on child sexual abuse material?
2.Will the Commission revise its position on encryption in view of the opinions of human rights associations and experts?
3.Given the abuse of Pegasus, how will the Commission ensure that the fundamental right to privacy is protected if a Member State, such as Spain, decides to ban encryption?
Submitted: 24.5.2023
undefined

[1] UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, ‘The right to privacy in the digital age’, A/HRC/51/17, 4 August 2022, para. 28, https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/ahrc5117-right-privacy-digital-age. [2] https://edps.europa.eu/press-publications/press-news/press-releases/2022/combat-child-sexual-abuse-online-presents-serious-risks-fundamental-rights_en. [3] https://home.crin.org/readlistenwatch/stories/privacy-and-protection. [4] https://www.wired.com/story/europe-break-encryption-leaked-document-csa-law/. [5] https://cdt.org/area-of-focus/government-surveillance/encryption-and-government-hacking/.
Source: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2023-001661_EN.html (EUP Parliamentary question E-001661/2023)
So yeah, it is now established that forcing law enforcement on E2EE messaging services goes against human rights. glhf EUC

At least they have the courtesy to write it into law.

62 comments