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Statement on Politics of Lemmy.ml

Recently there have been some discussions about the political stances of the Lemmy developers and site admins. To clear up some misconceptions: Lemmy is run by a team of people with different ideologies, including anti-capitalist, communist, anarchist, and others. While @dessalines and I are communists, we take decisions collectively, and don't demand that anyone adopt our views or convert to our ideologies. We wouldn't devote so much time to building a federated site otherwise.

What's important to us is that you follow the site rules and Code of Conduct. Meaning primarily, no-bigotry, and being respectful towards others. As long as that is the case, we can get along perfectly fine.

In general we are open for constructive feedback, so please contact any member of the admin team if you have an idea how to improve Lemmy.

Slur Filter

We also noticed a consistent criticism of the built-in slur filter in Lemmy. Not so much on lemmy.ml itself, but whenever Lemmy is recommended elsewhere, a few usual suspects keep bringing it up. To these people we say the following: we are using the slur filter as a tool to keep a friendly atmosphere, and prevent racists, sexists and other bigots from using Lemmy. Its existence alone has lead many of them to not make an account, or run an instance: a clear net positive.

You can see for yourself the words which are blocked (content warning, link here). Note that it doesn't include any simple swear words, but only slurs which are used to insult and attack other people. If you want to use any of these words, then please stay on one of the many platforms that permit them. Lemmy is not for you, and we don't want you here.

We are fully aware that the slur filter is not perfect. It is made for American English, and can give false positives in other languages or dialects. We are totally willing to fix such problems on a case by case basis, simply open an issue in our repo with a description of the problem.

164 comments
  • Seeing the pile of comments on here, I just wanna go out of my way to say I think the slur filter is a great idea. Fascists will appropriate any leeway they're given regardless of the ideological motivations under which said leeway is provided

  • Lemmy is run by a team of people with different ideologies, including anti-capitalist, communist, anarchist, and others.

    ❤️❤️❤️

  • No need for slurs in discussions. There are better ways to express anger , disgust or other "hot" emotions.

  • I'm brand new to Lemmy but overall so far I think you all are doing great. I appreciate the diversity in the political views of the team too. I find Lemmy much more usable than other sites too in how it's not as overfilled with garbage like a lot of digital media has become. Overall great app, no complaints from me and thank you for running Lemmy.

  • As a Scottish person, I've been tripped up by the slur filter only twice. Once was when I used the c word to describe Dominic Raab (I still stand by that), and the other was when I used twit by with an A instead of an I. I genuinely had no idea that it actually meant vagina! I've heard it since I was a child and had no idea what it actually meant.

    Still, you can't really complain about it, it's more of a trivial thing to people who aren't being offensive.

  • I really like this project. I think there are some areas for improvement in community building tools and moderation, but the software isn't even at 1.0 yet. So, that makes sense. It will be interesting to see how the structure of the software influences community building. How will the up vote aggregation affect what is seen? How will that differ between instances?

    As far as the politics of this instance. I've found it fine as an anarchist. As lemmy spreads and there are more instances I might find a more fitting home, but I feel welcome here in all my identities for now. There are certainly other lemmy instances I don't feel welcome at so :woman shrugging: .

    • It's certainly good have diversity of opinion, to keep it interesting for everyone. But how far would you extend that?

      If there were more (or more active) fascists here, would that make it richer? Probably not - there ideas are empty and obtuse and self serving and racist. But i would have said the same about tankies before i joined Lemmy and listened to them.

      The one thing you do not want is a circlejerk, where everyone agrees and is happy, but there is no important argument between people who strongly disagree.

      • I definitely wouldn't feel safe on an instance that tolerates fascists and/or racists.

        Personally, I don't use the label "tankie" to describe people. I just think it's outdated and doesn't really relay where I might have disagreements with authoritarian leftists and staunch nation state supporters. Where I don't feel welcome on some other lemmy instances has more to do with those authoritarian leftists and staunch nation state supporters not making enough room for a nuanced discussion about the balance and tension of individual autonomy and collective action (where does the liberation/rights of the individual end and the state/commune begin?). I don't really feel like I would be silenced here for exploring that nuance though.

  • I set up a slur filter first thing when I made r/antifastonetoss -- but I left reddit last year, so I don't know how the discourse progressed after that. But the mod team on AST is composed of various ideologies and marginalised people which was instrumental in setting up a slur filter without seeming like we dictated our vision too much on the community.

    We made it to foster a safe environment where people can feel welcome to, and so they feel they have the right to participate. Ultimately it needed some tweaking, because the community used some words a lot and their status as a slur was not entirely clear yet. IIRC we only ended up removing the words id.ot and st.pid from the filter. Overall, it worked well. It did remove a lot of bad actors straight up (fascists and reactionaries who wanted to argue), with very few false-positives.

    Even in the case of words that could be used in several ways (homophones mostly), we basically knew how many instances of false-positives and true-positives there was and could decide to filter them on a case-by-case basis. Of course if you want to deploy this to a whole project and its future instances, it's a different question.

    It's a dialogue between your users and your vision. I firmly believe you get the community you deserve, meaning that your actions as a community manager (or moderator or admin whatever) will shape your community. We removed the words mentioned above because it was causing a lot of frustration and we never had someone write us to say "hey I'm glad you filter these two specific words". Or even after removing them, we never had someone say "I prefered when they were filtered because I feel targeted". Lacking a proper audit of our community, this was our way to gauge . So in the end it removed some frustration and the users were overall happier that they could use these two words, even if I personally believe there are other words that work just as well. We felt we were driving people away and it was counterproductive to keep them in when it was having 0 noticeable benefits. Of course this doesn't work for every word lol. I'm reminded of the "t-word" debate on animemes and in this case I think they were right to ban it.

    Yes, some words have been reclaimed. And not everyone considers the same words to be slurs. What we did was err on the side of caution, and figure that words that have been reclaimed were allowed because there was only a very small chance of someone using it disparagingly -- and if they did they would usually be mocked in the comments. Of course though this applied to a subreddit where a) we live with fascists on the whole site (one of the reasons I left reddit altogether) and b) our community was already mostly aware of these issues and knew not to push the buttons. We could also trust them to push back against people using these words as slurs, as did the mod team.

    As for words that some didn't consider a slur when it applied to them, we kept them in if the status was unclear. Because while some people didn't think it was a slur and laughed about the word, others did consider it a slur, and we took the stance of doing more good than harm which was to ban the word.

    We also allowed people to censor the words with some characters (asterisks aren't ideal because markdown uses them), YMMV. We figured that in most cases a censor would be enough not to trigger anything but we'd see if someone would mail us to say censors are not enough for them. Ultimately nobody did, so we kept it like this because

    There's also one other very important benefit to a slur filter: not only does it frustrate fascists so much that they just stop writing (and their comments are not seen, that's a win-win), but the filter also helps keep conversations level-headed. I don't want to be a lib and worship peace, but in our project it was important that people could get along and focus their anger at stonetoss, not at each other. If your comment gets removed because you didn't think and used a slur, it would get removed, and you'd get a private message telling you which word you used and to please censor it or delete it. That also gave them time to think about what they really wanted to say, because often you realize after writing your comment that you don't really care all that much and what is even the point of sending it?

    People circumventing the filter was never an issue, except to fascists who would get banned for other reasons. We did take a no-nonsense policy on this and flat out said in the private mail that circumventing the filter on purpose will result in a permanent ban. Most of the time if there was any issue, it was people not understanding how some word was a slur, but after explaining it they usually understood. That's why people -- in this particular community at least -- didn't circumvent the filter; they understood to some extent that the word wasn't a good one to use. And really it's easier to put in an asterisk or period than to try and make it go through.

    But I wanted a slur filter day one on antifastonetoss to make people understand what kind of community we wanted. We didn't want the edgy teens, we didn't want the cryptofash, we didn't even want the libs. We wanted leftist people who wanted to really hurt a fascist and could remain respectful between themselves. We wanted people who had some amount of knowledge about these issues in the first place because again, you get the community you build. Of course we had no issues with newcomers and understood that some people had no idea about fascism (which is why I wrote some articles for the subreddit) or that they may not understand why we had a filter, and we were prepared to explain that with the help of the more knowledgeable part of the community.

  • Isn't instance-blocking alone sufficient for being able to prevent the environment from being overrun? I understand the hesitancy to platform reactionaries, but as it stands the network effect is easily the biggest hurdle the Fediverse is going to face. Right-libertarians and actual reactionaries might be a net negative on the main instance, but as far as the software itself goes, numbers are numbers, and could end up making a world of difference.

    Let them form their own circlejerks away from everyone else and have slur-blocking be on a per-instance basis, after all that's why the federated design works so well.

    • There are more important things than making numbers go up. Just the existance of the slur filter makes right-wingers upset, and stops them from even considering to use Lemmy. That makes our job much easier because we dont have to deal with them.

  • Myself I'm personally not sure what is a slur about the term for a female dog, or a prostitute for that matter. Seems like those words can be used for expressing more than simply misogynist rhetoric, but whatever. Or maybe my belief that the phrase "ain't that a b*ch isn't offensive is outdated. If that's the case, so be it.

    Don't have much against a slur filter per se, but it will always be controversial, and I don't necessarily believe some of those who view it negatively are better off not joining. But, it is what it is.

    • Just because a particular word isn't offensive to you, that doesn't mean there isn't a population that itvs meant to insult. Claiming that you find an insulting term to be fine suggests that anyone who is offended by it is just being overly-sensitive. That's not a great way to approach looking for methods of reducing insulting speech.

      • I'm not even implying the words bch or wh* to not be offensive, because they are. I'm saying I'm not sure if those words specifically (out of all the very specific and pointed offensive terms to use towards a certain group or subset of individuals which are also banned on here) are so pointedly offensive to warrant an outright ban on them. I'm also not entirely convinced those words were or ever have been used to disadvantage an entire group of people in the way the words that I feel are justifiable in their banning have been. If anyone feels calling a woman those two terms is on the same level or at all comparable to the other words on the list then I absolutely disagree, even though I also agree that calling a woman either of those terms to be offensive and wrong.

        At the same time I feel their use outside of that context warrants allowing them to be used even so. Especially if we've decided the term cunt is evidently fair game when to call a woman that would be much further over line than either of those other two banned terms.

  • Disclaimer: I am a multiply marginalized person on the radical left.

    I see various issues with the slur filter.

    The biggest one, I feel, is that many, many people in marginalized communities have reclaimed slurs. I'd go as far as to say that some (myself included) strongly identify with reclaimed slurs. The word "queer" is a very common example. Will those who identify with it not be allowed to express themselves fully here? The ban on slurs actually makes me feel far less welcome here as a marginalized person as a part of my identity that I am proud of, embrace, and find power in is banned. Most of my friends with various marginalizations have reclaimed slurs as well and would not feel welcome in this space. The reclamation of slurs can be an essential tool for marginalized people. Who are non-marginalized people to decide which slurs marginalized people are allowed to reclaim? I encourage you to read more about this, because it is incredibly important.

    Additionally, the code used to filter slurs is flawed. Does it handle if users use alternate Unicode characters to write slurs? Replacing "O"s with "0"s? Slur filters have been implemented time and time again and the result is always the same: users get more creative in their use of slurs or even invent new ones. There are so many variations of slurs, and language is far too complex for this to be enforced with a simple regex. It's also critical to consider different languages here. If Lemmy centers English in its slur filtering, it will inadvertently censor non-English words that are not slurs as well as not censoring non-English words that are. Not to mention -- centering English is incredibly problematic.

    Finally, the code is easily removed, and I speculate that if anything, it will lead to a fork of Lemmy by the alt-right even sooner that will gain significant traction. At the very least, marginalized users such as myself who simply wish to reclaim slurs will have to go through the labour of modifying the code and hosting our own instances.

    tldr: as a multiply-marginalized person with experience developing and running community platforms, this is a huge mistake, and will end up alienating many of those that you wish to protect.

    Please reconsider this change as it is far more nuanced than it appears on the surface. Thank you.

    edit: a simple solution would be to allow individual users the ability to filter out slurs (or phrases, or whatever) that they are uncomfortable with.

  • I'm not a fan of slur filter. IMHO words aren't the problem, the context is. I could use a word to describe a problem or to link a paper, in a sarcastic way, as a slang, or to make examples for something else. I don't think just banning some words will solve any problem, this should at least be opt-out, and I really think a different way to check for offensive content need to be found.

    Anyway: keep up the good work! Lemmy seems an awesome project and I really hope this will grow

    • The slur filter is certainly not perfect, but so far it has been very effective at preventing bigots from using Lemmy. If anyone has a better idea how to achieve that goal, we will definitely consider it.

      • What if the filter sends a notification to the communities admins, so then they can read it and decide for themselves if it deserves a ban or not? It would require human moderation but it's an idea.

    • I don't think sarcasm or slang are a good excuse to use slurs. On the internet where sarcasm can be impossible to decipher, it inevitably leads to irony-poisoning where people can't tell if anyone's being racist or "just being sarcastic".

    • Yeah, I understand it and know it's a patch for a bigger problem but I kind of feel what you say. Once I talked about a book called The F...... and their friends between revolutions and it got censored, and in this context is perfectly fine, but if you add an opt-out you will have a lot of people abusing it.

  • @nutomic@lemmy.ml Glad you posted this! I've been getting a lot of comments on my video about Lemmy regarding the political views of the Lemmy devs.

    I've think I've handled them like a champ but they seem to be so afraid that Lemmy will be used to "convert" people to communist ideology which is absurd.

    As for the slur filter, while I personally don't think it's a good way to deal with abuse on Lemmy instances (e.g words can be used in different contexts). I understand the reasoning behind it.

  • I noticed how old this is but I just want to say that I appreciate this post so much and that's pinned as well. The political stance was a matter of concern for me earlier but with this post, I feel it has clarified the rumors and I feel more confident in using this platform. Thank you so much mods and devs, you guys are awesome and love the software you've given us! So thankful for you guys!

  • I'd say the entire politics thing has been an issue of the past for a good while. I remember there was a time when just about every thread about lemmy anywhere would turn into a complete mental shitshow and that wasn't exactly enticing. But I followed the development for a good while before jumping in, and the communication got gradually much more professional (in a good sense). And I wish people would stop digging that up from years ago since it doesn't really matter.

    I'm glad you two can work on this full-time and hopefully the platform gets adopted by enough people that it will stay lively. Cheers.

  • Can you post a link to your Lemmy? When I ask the Duck about it, it shows me this old guitarrist from UK. I don't wanna ask Google. When I type "Lemmy net" it shows me an internet company in Germany but nothing with forums.

    • I dont understand, you are using Lemmy right now. Welcome!

      • The way the first post was written leaves me with the impression that lemmy.ml and Lemmy are two different things ran by the same person or people. I also saw somewhere on this site the sentence "lemmy.nl is the flagman of the Lemmy network" which also suggest that .ml and Lemmy are two different things.

164 comments