Dude read the rules of woman only community and decided to post anyway

Maybe it's just me, but in female-only community, I'm using female as part of a composed adjective. I'd say male-only community too, it just feels more natural. In fact, in an earlier comment I wrote women only, and then writing man only felt SO bad that I changed both to female and male.

Now that I think about it it's probably because I used man instead of men. I'll change both back but OOP miiight have followed my logic? Idk

Ok. I somehow missed that. I scanned for other uses of "female" a few times but was blinded to the one right next to coworker.

Not every female is a woman. Some of them are ladies or girls.

I have no idea what you're trying to communicate, but I do understand the logical expression you used.

I'll take your word for it, though I assume it is the case. Like I said....it's just the internet doing what it does (for better or worse).

"As an American" (though speaking only for myself) when I see those, I don't even go into them because my opinion wasn't solicited. I also don't throw out my opinions in non-American news/politics communities for the same reason. Also, I wish that was a two-way street.

Is that why US political posts are always filled with people from other countries?

you get paid for internet comments?

In a public park, you can absolutely ask random people to leave your party area. Not the park, but the space you are using. Double so if you've gone through the official channels to reserve that section.

And that goes both ways: If someone is having an event and one inserts themselves where they're clearly not invited, then that person very much has issues respecting others' boundaries.

It all boils down to people respecting each other.

Whenever I see that happen, I think "wow, thanks for showing why this community needs that rule in the first place". If dudes were more chill about women trying to build their own spaces, then perhaps it wouldn't be necessary to have such a hard rule.

Wandering in, missing the rule sign, getting corrected, and apologizing is fine. I've done it; the mods there couldn't have been nicer about it. It's not an ideal system, no, but it works well enough; it's the mods shouldering that burden more than anything.

...The problem is when the guys are corrected, yet keep talking anyway. Which I see happen a lot.

There is no excuse for that.

Is the best behavior to block any community you don’t or can’t participate in? I personally don’t love that behavior because I like seeing what everyone is discussing in threads, but that’s a reasonable solution.

I feel extremely mixed about this, yeah. I feel weird even talking about it.

I personally don’t love that behavior because I like seeing what everyone is discussing in threads, but that’s a reasonable solution.

The women's space... doesn't prohibit lurking? On one hand, the community is public, and I'm curious about the perspective in the discussions. I'm interested in understanding them so I can be a more respectful person myself.

I upvote their posts so they get more exposure.

...But I don't want to violate their privacy either. Blocking is reasonable. Right now, I just upvote them but don't enter the threads.

Obviously my current strat is just reading the community before posting (like not commenting negatively about Star Gate getting a new season in the star gate community as an example that happened today lol).

Read the room, yeah.

IMO TV fandoms shouldn't worship their material. Negative discussion is allowed, otherwise the space gets toxic.

In fact, this kinda happened to one of my personal fandom spaces, /r/thelastairbender: among other things, they idolize ATLA (the original series) like a diety, to the point where anything different (including other material like Korra or the Netflix adaption) is demonized. Deeper stuff like the novels, fanfics or speculative lore is not welcome either.

That sucks. It's all too common; the Star Wars fandom (for instance) is notorious for it. And its why some negativity and 'outsider perspectives' should be welcomed in such spaces.

The women's space is different though. It's basically a shelter from the shit this group puts up with IRL and online, so being more sensitive makes sense.

I think it’s hard simply because browsing by /all, or even by communities you follow and then just in your main thread, is not set up to highlight the community or it’s rules. If something hits the front page of /all I’m rarely digging into the communities specific rules or even where it’s coming from to an extent. Only to say, it’s a learned behavior to care about the communities specifically in this site aggregator system.

Bingo. This is the classic 'read the sidebar' crap from reddit. most users aren't reading hte sidebar because the side bar doesn't exist for them when they click in front the front page.

or the 'this post is already been made why don't you search instead of making new posts'. because search is stupid and useless for the most part, and a thread from six months ago is likely not relevant today.

To correct your 'public park' analogy, the space is public. Anyone can wander in. But it has clear signs posted at the only entrance saying its a space for women to speak, please be quiet, otherwise.

Missing the sign and apologizing is understandable.

But but if you wander in and knowingly violate that rule by electing to speak up, that is no one's fault but yours.

personally i have a dick but i don’t really identify as being a ‘man’. nor do identify as being a ‘woman’. i’m just a person. so am i therefore allowed to commentate? or is the mods who determine my sex/gender status, regardless of how i perceive myself?

...A primary reason for that rule is basically "don't be a dick about this being a women's only space, please."

If you feel you qualify as a woman to speak in the space, go for it! That's the idea. That's the spirit of the rule. But you specifically say "nor do [I] identify as being a ‘woman’. "

Making an issue out of it is precisely what is unwanted. So is trying to blame the space for your deliberate choice.

I don't get why this is so hard to grasp. It's simple.

The public park is owned by everyone, not just the women. You would be correct to be upset by men being excluded from this public space.

Comms are not public assets. Your use of any comm is entirely at the pleasure of the administrators of that comm, and their designated moderators.

Your opinion on the way they implement and enforce their rules is entirely irrelevant within their comm.

My suggestion would be to do what you would for any other comm whose behavior you do not support and/or whose rules you find reprehensible: block them and move on.

Lets say you go to a public building and in that public building there is a room marked women only, lets say in that room are some toilets, would you go in that room? Since it's a public space in the same building as all the other public space, the only difference is that portion of the space is understood to be only for women, or those that identify as women.

You may stumble in accidentally, and you will be gently corrected, but if you keep stumbling in, it's gonna start to seem weird, and the corrections will get less gentle.

That's on me, there's a few typos in my reply. I was just saying I've never heard it, not that I think I will never hear it ever. And genuinely the only menfolk I've heard use it earnestly were akward teenage boys, and the older lads mocked them and told them they sounded lame.

This is in the UK (and ten years ago), so maybe it's much more common in Australia or the US or something. But from the reaction it generally gets online, I get the feeling it's generally looked down on (outside of humor, or sci-fi).

same. it's so weird to me when people pretend like women don't act this way... and can't be sexist douchebags.

there are entire media outlets past and present that are basically dedicated to female douchery spouting crazy sexist hateful shit. but it's normalized and not seen as a threat to society.

There are support groups for men out there that are not generally charectirized as toxic. Toxic folks may attack men for going to them, but I can tell you before I transitioned I used to go to one, and no one ever verbally attacked me for it.

the bigger issue is that generally people think men are evil by default, and women are good by default. and that's not a cultural assumption most folks are willing to look past.

I consider myself a feminist and I vehemently disagree with that take, nor does it reflect in any way the commonly held views in the relevant communities.

Women and men are people. All people hold the capacity for good and evil within them. The real differences are 1) our respective socialization, and 2) the way we are perceived and treated by society based on our gender. That's not an individual issue, but a systemic one.

I've been part of a few support groups for men that regularly received appreciation from women specifically because they were aimed at helping men in recognition of this fact, and thus didn't revolve into inceldom and gender war nonsense.

Don't make them a hate-group for losers, then? This speaks more about the places you're hanging out at.

I mean, there's stuff like dull men's club where it's just dudes talking about average life stuff like buying new tools

A lot of male-only spaces descend into places to hate on women rather than proactively dealing with issues within our own community. It takes active moderation for these support groups to not become hate groups. If it stays focused on healthy self improvement (not hawking supplements and talking about a person being high or low "value") and providing emotional support for men, it can avoid the "hate group" moniker.

The "loser" thing is actually a symptom of why we need spaces like we're talking about. There will likely always be people out there who judge people for needing help and emotional support, especially men(thank you toxic masculinity), but the goal should be an overall less toxic society and greater acceptance that everyone needs help at some point.

Your "bigger issue" is not something I think I have experienced, I don't think I've ever had someone assume I'm evil because I'm male. That sounds like an internal belief that you're projecting on society, something that should be looked at in detail and questioned thoroughly in a therapeutic setting. Looking at other comments you've made on similar subjects, you seem to be someone who needs a place where your views can be safely challenged by reality, which is another way of saying we need better support groups for men like you, not just incel groups where you reinforce each other's toxic beliefs.

I understand that this may come off as insulting, I just want you to know that that's not my intent. I think you are lacking in self worth and that is leading you to project toxicity into the world. I don't think you're hopeless, mostly because I used to be on a similar course as you. I got therapy and learned to better love and value myself and I started seeing a lot more positivity in my interactions with people of all genders. The first step is wanting to change things.

generally people think men are evil by default, and women are good by default

i think this is a misunderstanding of the dynamic

we see this play out pretty regularly with the “not all men” arguments and the like: men getting annoyed by women being careful, and taking “you could hurt me” behaviour as some kind of insult. the statement is true: not all men are evil to women, but any man could be evil to women and thus need to be treated as though it’s possible in order to protect themselves

Never said anything about morality. I said would be nice.

As you can see, women have trouble keeping men out, too.

I'd like to see your data.

Whataboutism is a non-sequitor that disrupts and discourages productive discussion.

I haven't noticed anything like this online. I only one time saw a woman post in a MSM community and it was to ask a question, which was fine.

Who said I was a guy? Again, anyone can be anyone on the internet.

I am in full support of the community rules but that's an interesting claim when like 1/3 of the posts are about men lol

Downvote me all you want but there's there's literally 4 posts about men on the frontpage. The community should be a safe space for women to talk about men but don't misrepresent it as a place to forget about men

If they want their own space, they are just bigots. That's what they called me when I excluded them from the general space in the past!

-the people arguing against that comm, probably

You've angered the incels.

the point of the saying was that your sex/gender shouldn't matter for internet comments.

it wasn't to exclude women.

self identifying yourself as a man or women will radically change how people interpret your comments. a lot of people assume i'm a woman from the way i comment. then they would find out i'm not a woman and harass the shit out of me for upsetting/subverting their gender expectations.

there are no girls on the internet

You misunderstood the meme. Unless anyone verifies IDs, anyone online can claim to be whoever, and everyone's a fucking liar. 12/f/cali? Definitely FBI.

Simping for someone online claiming to be female is senseless. Personal characteristics shouldn't matter. Better to assume they're a nameless, sexless avatar.

Was it a common saying or were you just on 4chan too much?

Literally nothing is stopping you from creating a community for men with a rule that only men participate. The difference is that in the community you're thinking about though, women wouldn't be constantly trying to mess with it. There are hundreds of communities to choose from. We're not entitled to participate in them all.

/c/dull_mens_club@lemmy.world

The mens club you're talking about DOES exist though. Since men are not a marginalized minority, that club is just called society.

Your logic mirrors asking, ‘Why not create a whites-only club?’ Technically, you could, but people would rightly view it negatively because white people, as a group, are not marginalized. Exclusive spaces for minorities exist to provide relief from the discrimination or bias they routinely encounter. For groups that do not face those barriers, everyday society already functions as their ‘exclusive space,’ which makes it difficult for non-minorities to understand why others might need a separate environment.

Hey, go for it! If c/mensliberation became men-only, I'd support them! There are some communities where women wouldn't have anything to contribute, and that's okay and wouldn't be sexist.

But just don't go full kiwifarms with a men-only community and I'd say that's fine.

It exists. Or did. Menslib over on that other platform.

I know I’m sending mixed signals, but those things are not equivalent. All of modern society is patriarchal and women face exclusion from spaces their entire lives because of their sex or gender. Things have improved slightly over the decades but this kind of misogyny is still a global pandemic. When men are called privileged this is why. That ignorance is a privilege. Lucky you, that you haven’t experienced this constantly for your entire life. Want to create a “Men’s Club” community? We’ve all been living in it our entire lives. Nothing new to see there.

I still feel dirty thinking about the womensstuff community, though. The first time I stumbled in there I had no idea where I was and someone said “As a man…” and then asked a question, and they were told to be quiet. Women experience that constantly, and it’s worse for girls. So much worse. Especially if you are the chatty type of autistic that I am. Having experienced it, I would never subject others to that. I felt that interaction viscerally and immediately blocked the community. I understand wanting to have a safe space, and I do have those with certain private groups, but seeing that behavior was awful. Even queer spaces are welcoming to allies, and I feel inclusion of allies in all social matters is critical for progress to happen.

I can understand a mistake, and like I read on the original thread and on here; the mods are really nice. It just really shouldn’t happen more than once imo. I also feel bad for the mods literally trying to keep a space designated for woman safe. When I first saw the group, and the rules- It was confusing but I think it’s understandable. There’s not 100 of these spaces, and the rules should be understandable for anyone who thought of participating.

Well, the fact that women are existing and don’t want to interact with any of them is already discomforting to them; so I don’t suppose it takes much.

I can agree with that, but I think for privacy you lose some inclusivity. I understand you want to feel comfortable when talking about sensitive topics. On the other hand, is being a woman really such a sensitive topic that we shouldn’t be able to have a space that’s respected? It’s depressing that it’s not just intrinsically understood that these spaces are important, deserve to be public and proud, and really should be more prolific- but here we are.

If you block the instance then you block legit communities too though

Show us one of these "cesspool" threads, I've seen nothing but kindness there.

What's QST?

Yes sure. I am speaking in general. Half the time I read that community, I only realize where I am when I see the mods calling other people out in the comments. It happens in every single thread, which is why I think they ought to make it more visible in every single post. It's a great community and I do read it occasionally, so I don't want to block it, just because I'm not allowed to comment myself.

On Reddit I'd agree, but I'm slightly more optimistic about how it would play out here

I read through that thread, the mods were very patient.

And individual community members of course had their own individual reactions, depending on the content of the post.

Right, the infuriating part is the man ignoring the rules despite clearly being aware of them

Why is bringing a comment from a woman in his life so bad? It might be a gray area but it's still from a woman which is what the point was.

I'm not arguing against the rule since I just blocked the community if I can't interact with it anyway, but it feels like that should be an interesting gray area discussion thing, though that's also just ignoring the femcels responding to him calling him a liar lol

How does an anonymous person on Lemmy prove they are a woman?

Ah, I was thinking it might just be that, but didn’t want to assume. Yeah, I don’t think it’s that big a deal. If the commenter came in and said some misogynistic shit, definitely, but just for commenting? Eh. Yeah, he shouldn’t have, but how much harm was actually done?

Women enters men only space = stunning and brave

Man enters women only space = sexist and misogynistic and low key sexual assault...

Also, online, womens only spaces are usually just as toxic as fuck as any incel space. We just dont call them what they are. So, IMO, some rules need to take a big long hard suck of societies asshole.

Yeah, men should go to the back of that bus right?

A female woman? In this economy?

To me it's a sign that someone is not really used to communicating with people irl or that they are trans-exlusionary. Both are a red flag...

Please just go back to reddit

women insert themselves into men's spaces too.

Is this all there is to comment after I pointed out my observations about men dominating spaces? Should I have also pointed out how much more frequent it is for men to invade other people's safe spaces and not other people invading men's spaces?

why is it that you inherently value women over men?

Where did I say I inherently value women over men? I can appreciate others without putting others above me from a hierarchy perspective.

Well even if you believe political parties shouldn't exist, you should still participate in your democracy. It's not like the system goes away if you refuse to participate, so you might as well work within it