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1年前

Lemmy (the wider community) privacy does stink (and how to change that)

Sensationalist title yes, but this is something that is partially true.

TLDR; I am not spreading FUD. This space can be more safe than many, for the privacy aspect it was actually designed to maintain, which is the complete opposite privacy principle to where most new people are coming from. A monolith platform provides a measure of control over how public your engagement is while leaving you open to being tracked; open federated protects you from being tracked with a cost of having less control over how public your engagement is (and will remain). Some people do not understand this and will change the way they engage if they understand.

There is a lot of misinformation I am seeing (or at least glossed over information) that will potentially lead less informed to peril. I am hoping to provide clarity and maybe shift the attitude of some of the more technical among the community. Not everyone is educated in the same domains, and not every one will grasp some of these concepts easily.

Every thread started along the lines of "Discovered X in Lemmy is not private” is followed up with a comment “Eh, not really an issue. And I reviewed the code myself, an account deletion removes everything from the db”. I push my glasses up: “Ackchyually, that isn’t really true in practice. If defederation happens, or otherwise disconnected, (which always will happen in some capacity) a copy will remain in Lemmiverse, forever". This is followed up with “well duh, that is how federation works, and everything you post on the internet is copied and there forever. It is no different than a scrape or a screenshot”.

There are nuanced but very important distinctions to a scrape or screenshot and a federated, distributed, indexed copy. Those distinctions will change the way many engage with the platform.

Most people are not having screenshots taken of every post they make, when they make them. Most don’t have to be concerned with wildly compromising material tanking their run for office. It takes a high degree of intent and effort for someone to go to external, and unauthorized sources of duplication. It may not be a complete profile history. Most archives are not going to be indexed and easily searchable on mainstream search engines. Unauthorized archives can get sued into oblivion or otherwise disappear.

Not everyone is able to grasp a platform that acts kind of like a single entity but is not a single entity, especially if they are a refugee from a monolith platform. Many just see it as a single entity initially and when they see “removed from the db” they will assume any such action means platform wide.

A federated copy is automatic and effectively instant by design. A federated copy will be a complete profile. A federated copy will show up in federated searches. A federated copy could end up readily showing up in external indexes. A federated copy may have engagement the user isn't notified of. A user on an instance where defederation has happened may easily come across an entire profile history in a frozen state. Attention can be brought to content that the user desires censored because it will say “edited” or "deleted by user X" and a SnoopyJerkison could just switch to an instance account that has a copy with two clicks in the official app.

I have made an informed decision on how I will engage by recognizing this. I’ve accepted the folks my local are always going to see my spelling as impecab.. impeccibahh… very good, while some other local may see me as the philistine that I am before an edit. I will inevitably doxx myself in some way but it might be nice to have a stalker. It’s just me and the damn dog on our private fiberglass island here and she isn’t much of a conversationalist. I am in a place in life where I’m pretty comfortable with myself and have no problem walking around here with no pants on. Not sure why I recently got onto using pant idioms at every opportunity, but I have accepted that if it follows me around with folks replying, “I know you, you're that guy with no pants!”, I won’t be able to go back and remove the sources of the reference platform wide.

I’ve made comments I cringe a little at. Entirely benign and nothing I’m losing sleep over, but in haste they were not expressed in my usual voice nor really contributed to the discussion. If I had hesitated longer I would not have responded. Point being: I’m the one ringing alarm bells about this and I am still having to remind myself of the nature of federation.

Some people may not be comfortable with this, or could become less comfortable later. They should not be led to believe that it is a simple matter of “the internet doesn’t forget, but you can delete it from the platform” and understand they need to be very cognizant and thoughtful in how they engage because federation is very unforgiving and really doesn’t forget. This is a feature, not a bug. At its core, federation is balancing many goals. From censorship resistance, community safety, to privacy. It can actually provide an extreme level of privacy. But people will make mistakes, that will remain here, right in their face, if they aren’t extra careful. It won’t be in some dark archive. It won’t be in a screenshot never taken and never posted. The reminder of an accidental slip up will be here to perpetually haunt them. They will leave (likely traumatized by it for years to come).

A federated copy will have the perception of being more legitimate, true or not. The common, non-technical, person won’t understand if they find something you post hosted on a site you are ideologically opposed to, which it will be. Imagine my embarrassment at the next Pantless-Meeting-Pantless event when I get stopped at the door and shown the posts they believe I have actively made on “never-nude.social”. “But… but.. federation!”. “Ok Captain Kirk. Here’s your pants. Now scram!”

Some want to have assurance they can remove content platform wide for other reasons. Revoking support for a platform is one that seems to be in vogue right now. I’ve seen posts like “that site we hate is restoring our retracted posts!”. But I’ve seen cases right here on Lemmy where a user has censored all their content, only to come across that same content on other widely used instances completely intact.

This loss of edit access happens fast. Every user at this local will be aware of the high profile cases of defederation. This is a feature by design, and one you can expect more of I suspect. There are also simply errors in federation at times. I’ve lost access to copies on a popular instance the second I posted them.

Maybe this will change. It will be a monumental challenge. And it isn’t the case now. Users have to fully understand this.

“So what, screw the normies. Let them find out the hard way. It’s getting too crowded here anyway. Like you pantless sinnerdotbin! Git outta here if you don’t like it here in the wwwild-wild-west”.

Yet another aspect some are failing to recognize: many of the instances exist in places where they do take privacy very seriously. There are laws about disclosing collection, use and retention of data. One day you may visit your trusty local and you may find a blank page with a single statement: “I keep having very expensive embodied suits appear on my doorstep holding crisp manilla envelopes. I may be breaking the law. I am shuttering immediately”. Hope I didn’t want a reputation of wearing buttless-chaps instead of no pants ‘cause I ain’t got access to modify any of it now.

I’ve seen admins advising others to block EU in their firewall because they are aware of this liability and the lack of a privacy policy. That is a big part of the world that will have limited contribution to this movement.

Policies go a long way to establish user trust. I have gained a high level of confidence in some admins. They are competent, capable, and thoughtful about their users. People have been investigating hardening beyond what I would expect from any admin. They could showcase this level of care and intent by explaining it in their policies.

Privacy policy frameworks can also help new admins navigate responsibilities that keep their users, and the wider platform, safe.

Don’t hand wave this aspect away with “don’t post anything you don’t want public on the internet”. This is a totally different beast. Educate those not as fortunate as you to understand how this actually works. It is designed for your actual traceable information to be kept safe by the gatekeepers, the admins. Users must be highly aware: everything else you do here is public in a way you may never have experienced before.

Don’t hand wave the concern about post/profile/vote/message privacy, explain how the privacy goal is different here and how one might mitigate the aspects they are not comfortable with.

I have started a project where I intend to provide basic policy frameworks that one might use as a point of reference and I would very much like further input on it.

https://github.com/BanzooIO/federated_policies_and_tos/

These policies are going to be terrifying for the uninitiated. I have drafted an optional privacy policy preface that may help admins express the clear distinctions between their responsibility, their users’ responsibility, and the actual real privacy goals in this emerging space.

https://github.com/BanzooIO/federated_policies_and_tos/blob/main/optional-privacy-policy-intro.md

End transmission, engage pantalon. Zip

69 留言

I don't personally have that big of a problem with my posts/comments being "persistent", as I have a fairly high threshold for commenting and refrain from commenting anything too incendiary. And anyway, posts/comments, as I see it, are public and should be considered as such.
However, what I'm still a bit unclear on is the privacy of my votes/saves in the Fediverse. Should I start exercising the same caution in what I upvote or save? I understand that my home instance admins will have access to this data, but is that it?
- Votes are entirely public, Lemmy just made a UI choice not to show them. They show up if someone views it from kbin and ultimately something that could be mined from a self hosted admin.
  I think this information may make some of those who profess "everything is saved on the internet and why care" change their tune.
  Saves I am not sure about yet. Think that may be locals only.
  Edit: community subscriptions are another. I believe the admin that hosts the community has access to the sub, but this may also be available to anyone self hosting. Haven't confirmed anything regarding subs yet, maybe that is locals only too.
  
  Well that's pretty unfortunate. I quite liked Reddit's "anonymous likes" approach.
- I believe that votes are private in the sense that they are out of view unless you go digging for them. A bit like stepping behind a curtain to have a conversation in a room full of people.
  As for saved posts, Looking at the documentation, I think that that is local to your home server only.
  https://join-lemmy.org/docs/contributors/05-federation.html
  
  Unless a user is viewing from kbin, which interoperates here. It is entirely in view to the kbin UI (and Mastodon I believe).

Saving this to read later, when I have time. So my apologies if this is not relevant.
When using any sort of social media you are effectively shouting, at the top of you lungs, in the middle of town square. What privacy are you expecting? If you want privacy, join me in “bed”. For “pillow talk.”
I do expect my account to be secure, in that no one should be able to pretend to be me. But privacy? Not in town square, while standing on the bullpup. Holding a megaphone.
- When you shout in a town square, does everything else you've ever shouted, everything you've ever voiced your support for, everything you follow closely echo and remain in that square?
  Again, this is a feature. But one people really have to understand before they engage here.
  
  Yes.
  You must have either grown up post-internet or in one of the bigger cities. I assure you, in small towns like where I grew up, (particularly before the internet) old miss Busy Body down the street would never let ANYONE forget every embarrassing moment anyone ever had. The more scandalous or embarrassing the moment, the more likely it was to be retold. And retold. And retold. Till EVERYONE knew.
  The only thing that has changed is the detail of the retelling. The tales still seem to get bigger and more scandalous with each retelling.
  
  @VexCatalyst@lemmy.fmhy.ml is using a metaphor to convey social media interaction. In this context, yes, everything echos and remains in that square. It's no different that Reddit, or Facebook or any others. The mechanics of it on Lemmy may be different, but the end result is the same.
  
  Not by default, but it can. Generally in public, especially shouting in town square, you have no expectation of privacy against say, recording.
  This is incredibly relevant for politicians, as many times political events, rallies, protests, all involve actions that they were recorded doing in public by the public. So while the difference of "recorded forever by default" is important to understand, I do also feel it important to temper that by pointing out that this idea of non-privacy isn't unique to forum posts.
- while standing on the bullpup
  Boneappletea?
  
  That's a new reference for me. I had to look that up. :-)
  I may have gotten to word wrong. I'm afraid speak only two languages. Horrible English and even worse Spanish.
  I meant the box that old timey politicians used to stand on so they could be seen by a crowd while they spewed nonsense out of their mouths.

excellent post and something I think people aren't fully considering

I'm always in favour of more transparency and better acknowledgement of how data is transferred so that new users are aware when posting publicly.
I'm still in the camp of when you post publicly online, you should assume it's there forever. Even in real life, your words travel farther and longer than you would expect.
This platform as it stands is in a beta state, so we still rely on trust of each other and trust of admins to keep things going smoothly and cordially.
- It's the same camp.
  I'm not making the claim other platforms are better because you might be able to slip in a ninja edit before it is captured. I am making the claim that if you are not on high alert here, more than ever, it will bite you.
  For better or worse, some people are coming here from other services expecting a measure of control of their data that you don't get here.
  The experimental aspect of this space is the other thing I feel warrants more explicit warning about, and noted in my policy template.

Use alts, switch accouts after 1 year or 1000 posts.
As a person you evolve, the shit you said 10 years ago does not represent you right now.
- I do switch accounts around, but I would point out that if you are a data scientist, I suspect that linking account information from various sources and deanonymizing it is probably a pretty basic operation. If you're at Google and you acquire a new company, I would guess that the logs and databases of those companies being made available for Googles targeted ads and other projects is part of their value.
  Like, IP addresses. If you sign in to YouTube from a phone with account X at IP I and also sign in to a Lemmy instance from that IP, then from another IP, also sign in to both your YouTube account and your Lemmy account, maybe repeat the process a few more times, chances are pretty good that the YouTube user and the Lemmy user are the same person.
  Or via email addresses (Because remember that email you used to sign up with? Did you use that email account anywhere else?).
  
  Like, IP addresses. If you sign in to YouTube from a phone with account X at IP I and also sign in to a Lemmy instance from that IP, then from another IP, also sign in to both your YouTube account and your Lemmy account, maybe repeat the process a few more times, chances are pretty good that the YouTube user and the Lemmy user are the same person.
  Yeah, all part of managing your own privacy and understanding when your IP leaks from Lemmy.
  Or via email addresses (Because remember that email you used to sign up with? Did you use that email account anywhere else?)
  The hope is your admin is responsible and guards your IP and email from being public. That responsibility would be what an admin is highlighting in a policy.

That was an incredibly comprehensive, well articulated, and dare I say, exhaustive essay on some important issues you raised. On top of that, creating sample documents is next level.
Privacy
I don't think the word "privacy" is a good word for the concept. I believe "user data control" or "right to be forgotten" is more appropriate for the "deletion issue". However, there are few privacy issues such as instance admins having access to private messages and the potential for a hack to expose users e-mail addresses and usernames.
I believe you are 100% correct that we need to do a much better at communicating exactly who has access to their data and what (if any) control they have over that data once it is federated. I don't believe we will ever have an guaranteed federated delete, and we need to make that crystal clear so users can proceed accordingly.
Legal
Running a self-hosted service is one thing, but running a public service raises a myriad of legal issues. In the US, children under 13 must not be allowed to have accounts (COPPA). CSAM (child pornography) is another problem that can expose admins to serious repercussions. In the US, it is not enough to delete it, it must be reported to the NCMEC. Federation will make this especially treacherous. Other issues such as criminal investigations, subpoenas, and possibly even national security letters are not a matter of "if" but "when" they will occur.
If Lemmy continues to grow, instance admins will need to be prepared for these issues. I would suggest that the public instance admins reach out to an organization like the EFF who has experience dealing with these issues. If not, I'm afraid a high profile incident may be all it takes to kill it.
- The whole CSAM issue is why I'd never personally run an instance, nor any other kind of server that allows users to upload content. It's an issue I have no desire to have to deal with moderating nor the legal risks of the content even existing on a server I control.
  While I'd like to hope that law enforcement would be reasonable and understand "oh, you're just some small time host, just delete that stuff and you're good", my opinion on law enforcement is in the gutter. I wouldn't trust law enforcement not to throw the book at me if someone did upload illegal content (or if I didn't handle it correctly). Safest to let someone else deal with that risk.
  And even if you can win some case in court, just having to go to court can be ludicrously expensive and risk high impact negative press.
  
  Praise your local admins! And help them out by petitioning them to study their local laws and come up with proper policy and TOS statements.
- I don’t think the word “privacy” is a good word for the concept. I believe “user data control” or “right to be forgotten” is more appropriate for the “deletion issue”. However, there are few privacy issues such as instance admins having access to private messages and the potential for a hack to expose users e-mail addresses and usernames.
  This has been debated, and is very dependent on the context. It is a very broad concept to try to address and the lines do get blurred on the definition of what is "private data". The hope here is to partition the responsibilities of the admin from the user.

Isn't the "proper" way to deal with this just some kind of feature that ties defederation with the appropriate purging of your db?
Even some kind of unfederatable purge feature would work.
Of course the bottom line is malicious admins, but it's just the same as malicious companies. Or anything else really...
- Unfortunately not that easy. There is discussion on solutions. There isn't any now. Platform currently isn't stable enough to respect mutually federated changes all the time.
  Also I did put a disproportionate focus on this no take back component, but the scope is wider than that (see comment below about votes being public when almost everyone coming from a monolith assumes it is private)
- I don't really see how you can force/verify another instance has purged their DB. Like the worst case scenario, they can simply make another DB for all the deleted info.
  Such purge is harder to ensure than for large companies. Since large companies are (mostly?) Bounded by laws like GDPR. Where such law is harder to enforce on a random fedi instance on the internet.
  
  doesn't AGPL give some ability to verify? i'm pretty sure it stipulates that you have to distribute the code a network server is being run with. it would at least let people know if an instance has taken steps to keep data it shouldn't be keeping.

Summary. No one should assume anything publically published on the internet ever goes away. Assume Lemmy posts are public including some of your account info. Act accordingly.
- Impressively concise, but does gloss over some of the nuanced concerns that are specific to federated platforms.

Thanks for this.
I'm still refining my mental model of "federation" - it's so different from my usual centralized reference frame that even if I understand the vulgarization/explanation when I read them, the images and reflexes my mind has about social media are changing slowly.
Privacy kind of matters to me, so I'm grateful for content that helps me understanding better how it works and doesn't work in a federated setting.
I also think that, as pointed in comments, educating ourselves (the users) and reminding ourselves that privacy is also our job and responsibility is something important.
Anyway, not brining anything new to the discussion, this is mostly an appreciation comment.
- I appreciate that you are reflecting on how you want to manage your own privacy in this space!

There are stuff my younger self did in the real world that I am embarrassed about. Not bad, but not exemplary behaviour either. Guess what, there never was an edit/delete button for the real world. Why should we expect the online world to be any different? It's a fiction. We live with our mistakes.
Quoting people from the past against their present self to say "you're a hypocrite" is moronic behaviour and needs to die. People can--and should be able to--change their opinions when presented with new facts and arguments.
Teenagers (and some adults) are awkward and don't have the life experience to always make great decisions. This is fine. Have some compassion and don't judge them too harshly, especially when they come around to better decision making.
Existing social media never really gave you a real edit/delete button anyway either. It's all anonymity theater. The reality is that your data was always being scrapped and archived, somewhere by someone. This is just a reality created by digitization and virtually free recording/copying. No specific digital medium was ever going to protect you from this.
In the early days of the internet, everyone knew to use pseudonyms and not share personal information. We seemed to have forgotten this lesson. Maybe it's time to relearn this lesson. Life is full of lessons. Let this be just one more.
Acting like being forgotten on the internet is possible is not the solution. It never has been and it never will be.
- Me too! The world is different now.
  Existing social media never really gave you a real edit/delete button anyway either. It’s all anonymity theater. The reality is that your data was always being scrapped and archived, somewhere by someone. This is just a reality created by digitization and virtually free recording/copying. No specific digital medium was ever going to protect you from this.
  I explain the distinction to federated in the post. It is very different than a scrape or archive.
  In the early days of the internet, everyone knew to use pseudonyms and not share personal information. We seemed to have forgotten this lesson. Maybe it’s time to relearn this lesson. Life is full of lessons. Let this be just one more.
  Exactly. I am bringing awareness back to this.
  No one should fool themselves into thinking they can use a pseudonym and not eventually doxx themselves accidentally if they have any level of engagement. People have grown accustom to being able to somewhat reverse that mistake. Many are also not accustom to their interests, their votes, and their voice is all retained, in one, easily digested and public place.
  You are hitting on another subject I hope to investigate further myself: the shift that has to happen for society to adapt to modern, public discourse (eg. let the past slide).

Maybe im so normie i don't get it, but isnt it about the same personal advice we would have given for any platform?
Im sorry I'm from the forum days when you always knew you were responsible for how safe you are. I'm laughing because people can't get their data deleted from corporate companies either, is it really still news anything you post is public and will probably not be removable?
I appreciate the care, i do, but on some level some of this is trying to bubble people who aren't being responsible. If admins really wanted to protect people from themselves, then we'd remove most personally identifiable things interesting and unique about posts.
I'd also argue stalking has more to do with the mental health issues of the stalker than the victim being to blame for how they interacted with the world. We don't tell a student not to participate in lectures because someone may latch onto something they said and become infatuated. We punish stalkers instead.
Idk this is a ramble. I see so many things so often that used to be personal responsibility on online safety, that instead of teaching the skills we make tools. And i feel like not teaching good personal safety and protection is goong to doom any project ultimately.
You can't fix ignorance without education.
- I’d also argue stalking has more to do with the mental health issues of the stalker than the victim being to blame for how they interacted with the world. We don’t tell a student not to participate in lectures because someone may latch onto something they said and become infatuated. We punish stalkers instead.
  If someone is aware and engaging to their comfort level, no matter how open, I would not blame them, the victim, for being stalked. If someone wanted to be cautious, but they didn't know the risks here, I would feel guilty for not educating them on how they can protect themselves.
  Idk this is a ramble. I see so many things so often that used to be personal responsibility on online safety, that instead of teaching the skills we make tools. And i feel like not teaching good personal safety and protection is goong to doom any project ultimately.
  You can’t fix ignorance without education.
  Which is the entire point of my post, to encourage education in this space (which again, again, again, is different than what many are coming from with its own unique set of risks)

I’ve seen admins advising others to block EU in their firewall because they are aware of this liability and the lack of a privacy policy.
At least in the US, courts will not recognize EU jurisdiction over you and will not enforce EU policies against you unless you are actively doing business in the EU. Note that "doing business" may be a lower bar than you think -- if you specifically advertise targeting people in the EU, that may qualify, say -- but it is a higher bar than merely not being firewalled.
Now, you may still want to just block the EU or God knows what jurisdiction if you're worried about being hassled, but you shouldn't normally need to confirm to a country's laws just because people in that country can reach your computer on the Internet.
IANAL.
- Also USA does have laws regarding site usage by children. Might be more of a TOS thing, but this was brought over from the Mastodon policy I adapted.
  IANAL. Especially anywhere near children.
- Not saying it is the proper course of action, but no idea where those folks are hosting. EU is not the only place with such laws, and USA is not the only place where hosting is happening. Also highlighted, required or not, privacy policies go a long way to establishing user trust.

Great post. Imho, a fundamental thing we should not ignore is letting people know what they're in for. I've seen some users glossing over the intricacies of the fediverse to get others to sign up. I understand their side, but imo that's not a good way to have people come over. People should be educated enough of the pros and cons as much as possible, although that might mean some would get intimidated and refuse to join.
Clear policies will be very helpful in addressing that, i think.
Edit: just have to add that i haven't opened the links yet and only read the whole post. Not at home so I'll check them out later.
- People should be educated enough of the pros and cons as much as possible, although that might mean some would get intimidated and refuse to join.
  Bingo. Which would you rather do, talk someone's pants off, or scare them off or otherwise have them caught with them down?
  Also love your local domain.

I really do think a lot of people miss the point of federation. I just read an article where the author tried to justify "fediverse is dead because child predators use it." By that logic you'd better cancel your Internet and the rest of your utilities, because they also use those too.
Most federated atuff can be made disposable. I'd recommend most people not directly running a server just stay anonymous :/

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