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  • The restrictions for leaving and entering have not been imposed on them externally, this attitude of Korea predates even the Roman empire” =/= “we know they don’t let people in because they’re isolationist”.

    You're saying the same thing twice there. The fact you say it isn't, doesn't mean anything when the actual statements are functionally the same. No matter what they both place this issue at the feet of the Koreans, which is what the disagreement was about.

    They’re isolationist because it’s a cultural value derived from their location relative to their neighbor

    So you are saying they are isolationist. Super. ut that has already been argued with you and instead you moved the goalposts to be about proving you said something you thought you didn't say, which you are now once again saying

    I’ve hyperlinked to a few sources. I can hyperlink to more as well.

    As we have already gone thru, you've hyperlinked to two things. Do you not understand how references work? Do you need everything explained twice? Yes please provide your sources for god's sake this is the third time I'm telling you how sources work.

    Are we basing validity of sources based on fame? How many others agree with it?

    You do - you rely on the reputation of your alleged sources by way of them being large established brands. I think this is a silly way of evaluating the validity of a sources claims, but it seems to be your primary requirement.

    How many narrative holes their messages have? How old the sources are? Their nationalities? Whether they’re blocked where you live?

    Yes this is called being critical of your sources. It's an inherent part of any dissemination of information - not to just blindly accept statements presented by others. All of the things you mention help evaluate wether the source might have a bias, though the really big thing is cross-referencing claims. Interests of conflict and bias are helpful when conflicting narratives occur.
    Do you not get the point of references? Why do you think we are taught from an early age to engage sources with skepticism?

    • You are putting words in my mouth to claim that I imply a nation’s policy reasoning by mentioning the timeline of said policy. If there is any act of moving goalposts, it’s being done in said process of putting words in my mouth. It is the fallacy fallacy.

      you rely on the reputation of your alleged sources by way of them being large established brands. I think this is a silly way of evaluating the validity of a sources claims, but it seems to be your primary requirement.

      Name a criteria for what we shall consider a good source, and assuming it’s an ideologically unspecific criteria, let’s see if we can both follow it.

      • You are putting words in my mouth

        No I am presenting you with the logical conclusion to your statements.

        If there is any act of moving goalposts, it’s being done in said process of putting words in my mouth.

        "Having the result of my actions pointed out to me is putting words in my mouth". Don't ask questions if you don't want them answered.

        Name a criteria for what we shall consider a good source, and assuming it’s an ideologically unspecific criteria,

        Get it thru your dense skull: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECTLY GOOD SOURCE. You need to be critical of ANY source, but the only way you can do that is by PRESENTING IT so it can be studied. THIS IS BASIC SHIT. Have you never learned source critique?

        When we speak about "good" and "bad" sources, it's generally common parlance to describe media that is known to lie or which had a heavy bias - Breitbart, Infowars, Epoch Times, Radio Free Asia, Wikipedia - these are all examples of being "bad". This is not to say that they cannot present useful information, but you should be extremely wary of taking anything presented by them at face value - again you should be wary of all sources, but even moreso one that has a proven track record of a bias.

        A source might be good for one thing and bad for another. You wouldn't trust the press secretary oval office dismissing accusations of sexual assault made by the same press secretary, but you would probably trust it with statements about wildfires in the US. You wouldn't trust the Japanese government with statements about it having no connection to the moonies, but you'd probably feel safe in trusting it's statements about shinto shrines or whatever.
        You investigate your references for bias, for lies, for truth, you cross-reference with your other references in order to gather a more complete picture, and when you encounter conflicts you weigh the validity of each reference - In large part here the question of "who to trust" should in part be answered by "who do I know has lied before?"

        • Well, you can stop with your “logical conclusions to my statements” because I dispelled that logic by defining the semantics. Nobody can speak for what another person intends or what they mean, just what is perceived. I laid out a clear difference.

          You speak of source critique, source bias, and all sources being good for something as if this whole time you haven’t been bashing America and its practices (some of which you at first overly deny) in the exact same way you accuse me of giving into bias about North Korea. So I’ll ask again, what criteria would you like to use? Because I want to know how, if I’m failing at a criteria you prefer, you aren’t ahead of me in the same act of failing.

          • So I’ll ask again, what criteria would you like to use?

            Well, let's start with the first step, which is citing a source at all. They have asked you to follow through on your offer to cite sources to back up on your claims multiple times, and you just keep getting bogged down in these wacky circular semantic arguments. Currently you are failing to produce any source of any strength or bias.

            • Many of my comments have hyperlinks to different material supporting what I say, which I've said could be taken as indication I'm not being circular. Is this not what you're currently asking for?

              If it's because you think these sources are too biased, that itself is a part of my question you quoted, being what defines bias here? In a world where anyone can point to something and make a case that it must be biased, I'm here asking where the line is drawn between something tolerable and something intolerable.

              • Many of my comments have hyperlinks to different material supporting what I say, which I've said could be taken as indication I'm not being circular. Is this not what you're currently asking for?

                You've posted a total of three links. One of these is about a medieval kingdom, the other is a story of three Christians that died before the country we are discussing existed and then you've finally posted one single reference, to which I've asked if that is your totality of references. I've asked this because 1. A single article isn't exactly a solid foundation and you have still many unsourced claims and 2. I dont want to take the time to go through your reference with you, only for you to then again refuse to engage with the argument but instead throw up yet another half-assed article. I'd rather just get all your bullshit articles in one go, so we can skip 10 comments of me simply asking you to post your references.

                Meanwhile you have claimed that they are isolationist, then claimed you never claimed that, then when that was pointed out to you, you claimed that wasn't what you said, you then went on to say they were being isolationist.
                Thru all of this you have posted a total of three links.

                You are either an impotent unimaginative little bad-faith goblin, or you are a brickheaded ignorant dog-headed clown.

          • because I dispelled that logic by defining the semantics.

            "You can stop with pointing out what it means when I say shit, because I also said 'nuh uh'"

            You speak of source critique, source bias, and all sources being good for something as if this whole time you haven’t been bashing America and its practices

            You are correct, I have been speaking of source critique and then I have been critiquing the "sources" as far as has been possible BECUSE YOU HAVENT PROVIDED A LINK TO ANYTHING. How are you not getting it? What is with your weird circular logic?
            the critique had this been limited to showing how these media have a proven track record of lying and a clear bias. This called source critique.

            So I’ll ask again, what criteria would you like to use?

            Get it thru your dense skull you dense motherfucker, there is no such thing as an overtly good or bad source. Did you not comprehend what I described to you?

            Because I want to know how, if I’m failing at a criteria you prefer, you aren’t ahead of me in the same act of failing.

            You have so far posted three links. Two of these are descriptors of medieval kingdoms.
            Post your fucking references you massive brickhead porridge farmer

            • ...as opposed to what or who?

              I’ve posted many links in various parts of this branching-out conversation. You said the ones you witnessed weren’t satisfying and questioned their validity and place here. So I asked based on what criteria should we both go by when considering a source suitable. That brings us to here. Pretend for a moment I’m questioning the validity and place of your own sources. What would you do then, with both of us questioning each others’ sources? If one of our sources are lying while the other’s are truthful, what sign would we go by?

              I could just as easily ask you to list the things I’ve said you want more sources for if they would end up being welcome.

              • as opposed to what or who?

                What as opposed to what in what way? What are you trying to say?

                I’ve posted many links in various parts of this branching-out conversation.

                We've already gone thru this. You've posted three links. We've already gone thru them. I'm not gonna keep repeating myself. If you're just gonna be doing this circular thing were you don't acknowledge the facts as presented to you, and don't interact with them, but instead just keep repeating the same thing, then there is no reason for this conversation to continue.

                So I asked based on what criteria should we both go by when considering a source suitable.

                Which I then answered. Are you dense?

                Pretend for a moment I’m questioning the validity and place of your own sources.

                Then do so you dense motherfucker. Point out where there are issues, point out where they are clearly obfuscating the truth, point out where there are conflicts of interest, compare them to other sources.

                What would you do then, with both of us questioning each others’ sources?

                I would then interact with your argument. Questioning a source isn't going "well I just don't trust it". It's pointing out why it is untrustworthy - Which you dont do by saying "well I've been told they're untrustworthy." You do it by highlighting a history of untrustworthiness, clear bias, lies, conflicts of interest, etc. If you wanna do so, please I would love for you to actually interact with the argument.

                could just as easily ask you to list the things I’ve said you want more sources for if they would end up being welcome.

                Good thing I provided sources for you to critique and interact with. Please do so, providing your own references as relevant.

                • I was simply recapping with the first part is all. No need to react to those.

                  Questioning a source isn’t going “well I just don’t trust it”. It’s pointing out why it is untrustworthy - Which you dont do by saying “well I’ve been told they’re untrustworthy.” You do it by highlighting a history of untrustworthiness, clear bias, lies, conflicts of interest, etc.

                  My sources so far have included, as you said, a seeming (to you) random missionary-based website, the BBC, Wikipedia, two affiliates of Britannica, and all the American sources you say you denounce. If you truly are not simply saying “I just don’t trust it” as you say one shouldn’t do, what leads you to denounce every last source of mine, case by case?

                  I should point out many of your sources weren’t exactly news websites, a few seemed like homemade PSA sites.

                  • This is going in circles.

                    If you truly are not simply saying “I just don’t trust it” as you say one shouldn’t do, what leads you to denounce every last source of mine, case by case?

                    I'm not saying that, I've taken the time to go thru them and illustrate why they are bad sources for backing up your claim. I have not simply denounced them based on vibes, as you seem to suggest, despite me taking pains to illustrate the process and reasoning.

                    I should point out many of your sources weren’t exactly news websites, a few seemed like homemade PSA sites.

                    This was almost something that approached engaging with a source. Now all you need to do is engage with the content and critique it based on a factual basis.
                    I've already gone thru why "well this is a famous brand" is not a good foundation for "what makes a source good for a given claim", but if you need it in reddit-language: Appeal to authority.

                    This is obviously going in circles, so I am going to disengage from this discussion. I hope you will one day look back and realise how obtuse you've been.

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595 comments