Permanently Deleted

"To cool everyone’s jets, you will be getting your slop back,"

The slop was only the catalyst. The issue quickly became that mod statement misgendering much of the site(and having an un-CWed self harm reference), harassment against people who were against it, and the fact that other lemmy mods got told before we did. Is there any plan to address those issues?

Edit:

Or just ban people for opposing it I guess

a plea to the admins generally: please address the flagrant transphobia/bizarre gender essentialism that was the thrust of a couple of the (anonymous!) mod takes from the big thread. if this gets swept under the rug my faith in admins/mods to consistently oppose bigotry will be severely damaged. the silence is already deafening on the issue.

The antagonism shown by the admins and mods every time they decide something behind the scenes then spring it on everyone unilaterally is so exhausting. If you hate interacting with users so much that you're making alts to harass people or just deciding to ban people who politely disagree with you then this really isn't the right gig for you

Obviously this isn't directed at you, TC

So, I don't give a shit about the controversy itself, but the way that the mods in a closed chat just hyped themselves up on saying "This is what white bros do" to each other and then handing down the pronouncement that some of the most popular communities are only for chauvinists and then masking their real motives with an excuse about the names is just awful. The disingenuousness, the insular snobbishness, the immaturity, the cynicality. It's just disgusting.

I have no further thoughts.

this is being handled so childishly by what seems like a good handful of the mods and admins lol. complete shit show. why not just lock the thread and perma everyone criticizing you all at this point, or do you enjoy arguing with us that much? i acknowledge that some users have acted overly hostile and crossed lines which sucks for you all to have to deal with but you all have created this situation (problem was fake to begin with) and gone on to drop the ball on resolving it several times in comical fashion.

This wasn't really adressed, so I'm just gonna include my comment from the last thread, so maybe it will get adressed, as it was way out of pocket and deserves a response.

I think there should probably be some accountability for whoever was/were behind "the white cishet man vibes" part of the post, editing it out of the original post doesn't change that is was there, saying that shit was kinda fucked, as many people in the original post noted

which one of you did this please

then run a slop channel naming competition for a new contained community

this will be the most important election of our lives

Also to add.

Can mods/admin stop making big changes to the site without posing the question to the community? Can this be written in big bold font somewhere? Was nothing learned during the vcj incident?

This post has mentioned chauvinistic, misogynistic, and toxic tendencies three times but provided literally no examples of such - nor did Carcosa's original post. I am not trying to say that these things have never existed or never will exist in posts/comments on my beloved Hexbear nor am I saying that you (or any other admin/mod) should have to provide examples of literally any/everything TC69 - but I am begging you to actually provide some legitimate examples because otherwise this just sounds like the same "we don't want the dunk tank because white cishet male behavior" justification that everyone was like

Why is someone who just returned after 3 years in charge of fixing this? Nothing personal but you're in the worst position to address culture.

I said it 3 years ago, I'll say it again today. I'm not going to sit here and post every little example of things we're describing as an issue when the modlog is publicly available.

If mods/admins want us to take the modlog seriously they have to take it seriously first. What is a user supposed to think when they look at the modlog and see this or this?

I'm glad to wrt to the slop things and the rules things. I'm surprised there's no mention of any actions wrt to the mods or transparency. Unless that falls under COC somehow, but that's not the vibe I'm getting.

This strugglesession evolved slowly over time as it became clear the actual reasons for closing the comms were not the reasons given. It gradually became evident a subsection of the mod team have really shitty attitudes about what it is they do and the position they have in the community. They're reddit power mods wishing to rule over ever shrinking digital fiefdoms. If we want to reckon with "chauvinism" then we need to start with those holding the most influential positions, and we need to set in place a system that makes it so this cliquey backdoors ratfuckery shit does not happen again.

Like the labour shitfuck to your tory fuckshit I applaud your initiative, but I invite you to go further :tory:
There's a lot that could be done to achieve more transparency. I'll find my old comment for some of the bulletpoints

edit: Christ I had to scroll thru a lot of dreg to find it. Can't believe you'd literally force me to see all those dumb takes and not even give me the ability to post, truly this is onethousandninehundredeightyfour.
Anyway, link to long post The relevant bit:

I don't think this is the last time this situation will erupt, if nothing changes about how moderation is handled and how site changes are handled.
Keeping the two comms open just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Not kicking the mods who wrote that shit out is also a bad sign, for the direction this whole thing is headed.

I would really recommend that mod discussions aren't anonymous anymore. Have the matrix board or whatever it is, but make it so everyone can go and look what is being posted, just like with the modlog. The only time discussions should be anonymous, should be when there is a risk to operational security, and not a vague risk, an actual one. It should also be announced whenever those anonymous discussions take place and explained why they have to be anonymous.

Early in the site days we went away from displaying which mod took an action in the modlog, and just blaming everything on automod. I think reverting that would go a very long way to bust a lot of this cliquey shit.

When users notice certain users get special treatment, they get banned for commenting on it, until the situation becomes so egregious that it cannot be hidden anymore. Not allowing the userbase to call out bad mod practice, is also not good. We've closed both userunion and feedback because the mods don't like the "drama" - Getting called out for shitty behaviour. We really need a comm where the userbase is free to voice concerns and grievances. That would also go a long way towards avoiding these situations in the future. And this time mods shouldn't remove posts just because they dislike them, that's pissbaby shit.

Other good effortposts I found while scrolling thru the dreg

• Ratboy on transparency
• Frank On healing
• Frank On some of the stuff that needs to be healed
• Morte On what made people pissed, which really wasn't the tanks
• CoolerOpposide On what ought to happen

Finally: For those who are just now tuning in and wondering if all the fuss is about the naming of some comms. It's not. It's about people feeling lied to, talked down to and mistrustful of the mod team due past behaviours and the way this was handled. This comment thread probably gives you the best idea of what was the catalyst for being Very Mad Online.

@TransComrade69@hexbear.net I'm done now, you can dunk on me knowing no more edits will come.

There's something really funny about a bunch of commie admins who want a serious leftist community, but rather than actually committing to anything like democratic centralism by gauging their communities' thoughts on things they instead unironically do the whole undemocratic shadow cabal 1984 meme by dropping half-baked ideas on everyone with zero prior warning or discussion.

And by "really funny," I of course mean that the admins should take their own advice and go touch grass for a bit, because this is by far the dumbest struggle session this site has had and that's saying something.

feeling very foolish for ever thinking the internet moderators on here don't have that much in common with all internet moderators ever

again, posting here after posting in the other thread because i need to get words out, even if they're not taken up

one of the founding principles, and one of the most important things that makes this site something I return to often, is the fact that we are willing to take each other in good faith. Absolutely there are times when people are posting dripping in irony, but for the most part I think this is something we've done well, and something we've managed to maintain over the years since this site launched. That said, the jacketing that keeps happening, and especially what took place yesterday in regards to 'cishet white vibes', needs to stop. We can change the rules all we want, we can struggle and struggle over and over again but until the leadership team here internalises this, the issue is never going to go away. It is clear that there is some level of contempt for the userbase, even if it's not framed as such. Even if we meme about it, the underlying culture of the leadership team seems to allow for this contempt to fester, and it's most clear when the team throws aside any nuance and understanding of the users here in favour of casting swathes of us as 'white' or 'cishet', so that sweeping decisions can be made about us. I don't know how you weed this out, I just recognise it as the seed that it is.

As a trans woman, as a Person of Colour, this is one of the few sane places online. Ultimately, I don't care about the tanks closing, even if I want them around. I don't even really care that we have struggles every now and then, but I admit I say that as a regular user and not a mod or admin. I'm not about to leave this site, I don't have elsewhere to go, but that is precisely why things like this concern me. I understand the effort and everything needed to run a site, let alone a site like this one, so I understand slip ups and miscommunication. I'm not about to call for the abolishment of the system, but some level of self diagnosis of the problem and consequences thereafter feels like the only good way forward here.

I'm honestly baffled that people are surprised by the mods' reactions to this. This has always been how they handle things. The only difference is that the target has become a critical mass of regular Hexbear users.

When we first started, we were under threat of wreckers and other reactionary elements. Our mod tools and policies were forged in that environment. But with defederation and increasing isolation, these elements grew to be less and less. Our policies have remained the same. The tools of external subjugation have been turned inward. The techniques we used to hunt down literal nazis are now being turned against the regular userbase.

This has always been how the mod/admin team operated. Hexbear is viewed simultaneously as serious political project that necessitates a party line but also a pet website so they can arbitrarily push changes from above. The only difference is that most users agreed with the decisions at the time, or at least didn't care enough to raise a fuss.

I've been here since the very beginning, all four and a half years plus a few on the subreddit. This is literally the organizational structure the users built and supported. I don't see it changing anytime soon.

I gotta say banning everyone for everything all the time was quite a funny bit back in the CTH days when we were still getting lots of recruits from reddit and various other places, but banning everyone for everything now when we're not really growing and not really recruiting is probably a less good idea. Every time someone leaves for good it's unlikely they're being replaced by someone new and that's going to eventually lead to us falling below some critical mass of users required to maintain an active community.

I mean definitely ban people for good reasons but banning people for jokes or because some feathers got slightly ruffled is a lot less worthwhile these days. To be clear I'm not saying give hate a pass... absolutely do not give hate a pass. But the mod log is public, as you say, and I find myself poking around in there a lot to see what's going on and seeing folks banned for dumb reasons is not a nice time.

Other than that welcome back. TC69 thought can and should continue to be upheld without perm banning every mildly rude poster.

So...

Just trying to summarize for myself what to make of this.

In summation:

• It's over. For now.
• Adjustments to renaming the mockery forums.
• Adjustments to code of conduct and new filters to eliminate but not limited to misogynistic/sexist/transphobic slurs.
• Instead of forcing people to effort post in both forums, they'll be separated to encourage effort post in one and low effort mockery material in another.

I think there's left over unresolved feelings from this struggle session:

• anonymous moderators statement in Carcosa's initial announcement was filled with direct and indirect verbal abuse and belligerent hostility to the user base.
• Unilateral decisions being imposed upon the user base by a clique of moderators who appear to have contempt for their comms.

Is there anything else?

I wonder how being an admin skews your view of the culture. Maybe you don’t want to read literally every post, but you still feel it’s your duty to check reported posts, which are inevitably dogshit. So enough days of this and you’ll think the average poster is a variably scratched lib wrecker. Or you listen to dubious stories from what seems like untrustworthy other mods who want to wreck as much as any other lib. Combine that with talking a break and only hearing about this place through echoes in the grapevine.

I've stayed out of this mess so far because engaging in these struggle sessions is usually a waste of time but if dunk culture is opposed by the mods the modlog should reflect that. Banning people with no reason given besides some pithy joke is just dunking isn't it? Because looking at the modlog gives no indication for why users like Alaskaball are perma banned besides disagreeing with the decisions being made. From an outside perspective it just looks like a user who engages in effortposting and actively tries to make this site better is being banned for no reason. If we want to make this site better it has to come from both sides.

The admin team needs combed through for transphobia immediately. Between the anonymous comment and this where an admin misgenders AlaskaBall, there's clearly an issue that needs addressed. If you folks want to continue being known as the transfriendly instance, it's time to act like it.

Late to reading up on what was happening till last night/this morning (AEDT; UTC+11:00)

Perhaps all we want to do is point and laugh, perhaps a baby leftist sees something Not Good TM somewhere else on the internet, and while they do not have all the context or education on the matter to make an effort post of why said thing is Not Good TM, they do have the ability to identify it as Not Good TM and can post it to let other people tear it apart.

I think this is the point people were making in the other threads, right?

Getting people to do homework for every post just kills the vibe

i realize i haven't posted at all in this strugglesesh which is honestly a good thing because even just reading it all has landed me a massive headache but i'm so serious when i say that i believe that bits should not have a place in these kinds of discussions. people are genuinely upset and i really don't think the confusion that is arising from these bits and inside jokes are helping the matter and are rather spiraling things further out of control.

I promised myself I wasn't going to comment. I've been reading shit for days on the sideline and just biting my tongue. And I can no longer keep doing that.

So I'll try to be brief.

After witnessing a few struggle sessions in my time, and being the center of a recurring one for a while, I'm just going to be blunt: I don't trust the admins. Those who run this site do so behind closed doors and they have an agenda. An agenda often at odds with the userbase, and drenched in hypocrisy when decisions are made and rolled out.

Just fess up. You all hold the keys and you do what you want, when you want. It's always been that way. Please, stop pretending anything will ever be equitable. It's just... not. I would respect the honesty vice management bending themselves into pretzels to make it look like their doing the community any favors. I mean, lets be real: the only reason why the tanks discussion is causing such a meltdown is because the overreach this time was off the charts, affecting so many users. But it's always been that way.

“wow hexbear’s most annoying user returns and the site immediately starts to implode. really makes you think!” -a brave but fallen commenter

Why was Alaskaball banned?

More bans with no explanation given, but the modlog makes it look like the users that requested a temp ban

EDIT 2: I said it 3 years ago, I'll say it again today. I'm not going to sit here and post every little example of things we're describing as an issue when the modlog is publicly available. It's accessible from any page on the site at the very bottom and in the sidebar of all comms. Please let your keyboard breath and spend like 15 minutes reviewing the modlog, lmao.

so what am I supposed to infer from the modlog, @TransComrade69@hexbear.net?

I like everything you've suggested here, and feel kinda bad that the first thing that happens as you walk back into the site is shit boils over and some of it even gets blamed on you when you've only been back 5 minutes. unfair, and conspiratorial.

I do further echo the sentiments of others ITT when I also ask we take a deeper look at the moderation team and their involvement in site wide internal matters. lot of people have become mods on comms they have no business moderating, and such a low barrier to entry with almost no vetting beyond 'do you seem like an asshole?', then given more weight than they ought to with no transparency

This tagline that just popped up firmly illustrates my position on the matter

Dear admins. You have 30 minutes to reply to my complaints. If you are currently eating Frosted Flakes with your child, please cease immediately and begin your response. Do you think this website is less important than Frosted Flakes? Your child would not want to be raised by a revisionist.

We will be updating the COC in the coming week-ish to explicitly disallow misogynistic and chauvinistic language/sentiments – what will be explicitly said

this is very cool and good, and as a proud commenter-not-a-poster i appreciate the love

anyway i think the whole saying ppl who enjoyed it gave off cishet male vibes was like. a real big issue that should probably be addressed somehow

I’m going to make a megathread for the community to decide the name of our new slop trough.

Tbh that’s a pretty damn good one right there: /c/slop_trough. I’ll wait for that thread and enter it as a suggestion there is no one else does first.

I just hope both teams have fun

We will be updating the COC in the coming week-ish to explicitly disallow misogynistic and chauvinistic language/sentiments – what will be explicitly said, I don’t yet know but I do have some ideas having reviewed the COC for the first time in 3 years last night.

While you're at it, I hope the admins explicitly disallow all the forms of bigotry that allegedly they have been committed to the whole time, at least since the current code of conduct was allegedly posted 21 June 2023:

We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race, ethnicity, age, religion, nationality, or other similar characteristic.

Edit: I bet y'all would want to know what name I was thinking of, huh? Too bad!

I know this is still a hot topic, but I think it's good to amend the rules regarding misogyny and chauvanism, while letting us keep our slop. We are all sick fucks anyways, but we want to be as inclusive sick fucks as possible, and I don't see how amending the rules is going to hurt things. Theoretically misogyny and chauvanism should be removed already, but I can't speak for everyone's experiences.

Users like @Frank@hexbear.net have made good effortposts on the matter of the mod drama, and I echo the sentiment that I hope this can be an opportunity for us to bounce back stronger and brighter than before. I have seen at least one mod make numerous alt accounts and behave in a highly toxic, unacceptable manner, IMO, and many users have expressed issue with the released mod statements, like the transphobic remarks that erased the real participatory demographics in the comms. I'd like for this to be taken seriously, it's clear that our trans and enby comrades have taken offense to these statements and that shouldn't stand.

I dunno, maybe I'm annoying and maybe people don't like me, but I like to think the vast majority of us have the best in mind for this site, that's what I genuinely believe.

Edit: No, I will not stop editing my comment

We love our trans comrades

Alright time for me to shut the fuck up again, I keep saying I am going to

People have every right to be upset and I am not trying to minimize that.

Counterpropaganda posts cutting apart shitty Op-eds, MIC insider articles, journalistic stories, etc. are celebrated and encouraged, and will be separated from the shitpostier/chattier nature of the gossip community.

I think maybe admins/mods should post in c/commrequest first to see if there are people interested in/willing to contribute to a comm before making it.

Edit: this is not about counterpropaganda per se, just a general thought.

Eagerly awaiting the return of the dunks because G*mers are only getting stronger and more untethered with each passing minute.

Alaskaball banning themselves as a bit and then it becoming a mini drama unto itself is kinda funny

Wait, I thought the dunk tank was locked because of the name, not the content. I'm not a fan of getting rid of dunks in general.

I touch grass for 48 hours and return to y'all acting like the site is falling apart lmao

everything is going to be fine

happy some famous posters are finally returning :)

Once again not caring or engaging is paying off dividends lmao

Excuse me but before you made these changes did you even consult the parliamentarian!?

I literally touch grass one day and have no idea what is going on.

welcome back TC69. my "shut the fuck up" and post thoughtfully strategy continues to pay dividends, as this will be my only comment on whatever the fuck this struggle session has become. love the "gojo losing it" avatar, it feels very appropriate for the moment. good luck and godspeed o7

Having been here since basically the beginning of the site (not my first account), my usual approach to struggle sessions is to just close Hexbear for a few days and hope things sort themselves out, and that's gonna be my approach here as well...I'm just not good with conflict, and I don't tend to have strong opinions about these things anyway.

I have faith that we can grow from this experience and make our community more welcoming as a whole through an updated CoC as well as improve communication between admins/mods and the wider user base (I didn't spend much time in the original announcement thread but it seems like this is the main sticking point and source of acrimony).

Things may get heated, but try to remember the comrade on the other side of the screen and be kind to each other

re: COC changes, should we officially retire the "post hog" joke? I hadn't seen it pop up in years until I made one a few months ago and had the comment removed (totally fair) Last month though, a lot of people were asking another chud to post his hog, right after the misogyny purge started. So are we gonna keep doing that or nah?

I must be out if the loop a bit.

But all this drama has me wondering who the admins actually are? Is there a list somewhere of all the admins of this site?

lol i'm this site's most annoying user

Somewhat self-important? Maybe (aren't we all tho). But "annoying"? Certainly not.

After distracting myself and returning to the subject later, I have to step back from the position that closing the tanks was a good thing. The inevitable result is that the pillory content will spill out or disperse into other comms. Much as I'm iffy about what their effect is on our mental health, they really were the best compromise.

Oh and also, what is the party line on the word "binch" and its derivatives, which came out of the dirtbag left around 2018? Is it good practice to say something like "clarence thomas retire binch"?

Honestly I was unreasonably upset for like 2 hours about the whole thing but like...

This is just a website everyone. I realize this is a really privileged point of view since I do have other modes of socializing and other support networks. I still stand by the fact that this just is a place where people and bots and possibly other entities make posts on a niche corner of the Internet.

I'm one of the last people still technically a member of the MoreTankieChapo discord so if anyone wants to see what happens when people take their little communist corner of the Internet a little too seriously I can say least share one historical perspective.

I'm the opposite demographic of what this website should be geared toward. Never change the site for any cis he/hims. Do whatever you all want with it. I didn't want another MTC but I also don't want another 4chan or something either.

I love my trans comrades. I love all my comrades but especially my trans ones.