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Beehaw, Lemmy, and A Vision of the Fediverse - Ruminations on the past and visions of the future

77 comments
  • It's honestly pretty frustrating to see the Lemmy Devs' responses whenever basic moderation tools are suggested.

    While I think Beehaw does get a lot out of the wider federated community, it's really hard to make the case to stay when the devs are practically begging Beehaw to leave.

    It sounds like (if I understood correctly) Beehaw is looking at an alternative platform that can still federate, which sounds like the best solution in my opinion.

    It will certainly be very interesting to see what the future holds for Beehaw.

  • I think it's reasonable to say that most users and admins came to lemmy looking for a reddit alternative in the Fediverse. At first glance, lemmy ticks this box pretty perfectly.

    Once you dig deeper though, it's obvious the devs don't share the same vision as some of those new admins and users. That's fine, it's their software, they can do what they want with it. It just means maybe it's time to move onto something better, maybe that's going to be sublinks.

    • We were explicitly looking to not replicate Reddit - while both are link aggregator websites, we didn't particularly like the general vibe present on Reddit. I think a lot of folks on Beehaw agree with that premise, but functionally speaking there's not a huge difference between the platforms or communities. A lot of the difference seems to be about the vision and philosophy of what the place can and should be.

      • Given the goals and focus of beehaw, I honestly expected you to defederate from the rest of us. Thank you for not, and sticking around as a positive force in our community ❤️

  • Running an instance myself, the lack of mod-tools is very frustrating for quite some time now. I totally agree with pretty much all improvements beehaw suggested in the past to solve these issues. It's a shame how this topic is handled...

  • I always appreciate how much thought, effort, and time you all put into these documents and the community and everything; thank you from the bottom of my heart. There's no place I'd rather bee, and whatever direction ends up being taken I'll gladly come along.

    There was an event I used to go to every few months. When you got there, you'd head up to the registration tent to check in but the first thing said to you was always "welcome home!" and the second was "do you like hugs?". That's how it feels here, like walking into a tent of people who care that you're here because they want you to share in the positivity they've found.

  • I haven't commented on anything in quite a long time, but I've been checking in now and then and I just wanted to say that wherever Beehaw goes, I'll be following. Really immature behaviour from the Lemmy devs.

    • Really immature behaviour from the Lemmy devs.

      IKR? I've been working with developers for 30 years now and I've never seen this level of egregiousness. In my opinion, the Lemmy devs are way out of line here.

      • I have. Check the story of how Linus (the one from Linux), changed the way he approaches suggestions after his old ways drove some guy to commit suicide... over a patch that he didn't commit (how's that for dark humor).

        Lemmy devs sound like pre-selfconscious Linus.

    • Hope to see you more, silly bean!

  • having come from reddit, where I was ignored or didn't feel safe commenting, Beehaw is a breath of fresh air. and it makes me hopeful.

    I don't really participate in Discord servers anymore (after watching several explode) so this is a lot of my social interaction. I'm still not super confident in my ability to engage (especially on topics I don't know a lot about, but I like learning, so I like to read those threads regardless) because similar to what someone else mentioned in the thread, I don't know that I have a lot of value to add.

    I really enjoy my time here, is what I'm trying to say. I told my partner immediately after reading this "wherever they go, I'll follow" and I meant it. this is also my first experience with Lemmy, but I'm not attached to the software. what works for the community works for me.

    just trying to offer words of support! you guys 1000% deserve it. so happy I came back.

  • IMHO you might be overthinking things a bit, while missing some other parts.

    First, Lemmy is a NLnet project funded by the EU. The lead devs don't work for free, and proposing "bug bounties" could be seen as competition and/or not in their personal interest.

    Second, Lemmy is two layers in a tech stack:

    • ActivityPub
    • Mastodon
    • Lemmy server
    • Lemmy client

    The focus of Lemmy devs is on the server side, with the rest basically a MVP to keep ongoing funding (NLnet funding is tricky on its own, the main two devs have little room to do anything they didn't get pre-approved for, if they want to get paid).

    There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it means they are not "project leads" or "community leads", and they won't care about it either.

    What Beehaw seems to need, is one or two additional layers to the stack:

    • Mod tools
    • Community building (current mods seem to work fine for Beehaw)
    • Community features (seems to be a good number of bots out there)
    • Extra features

    This is not something the Lemmy devs are able or willing to do, so Beehaw and similar projects will need to add them, or find them somewhere else.

    I would suggest starting bug/feature bounties for whatever is needed, on a forked repo of Lemmy; take from upstream whatever works, and leave Lemmy devs to run their own show. Maybe call it "Beemy" or something.

    • That would be great to hear from the devs in response to why can't you work on feature? If the reason is because someone else is setting the software priorities so the devs can get PAID; okay got it. Instead we get the contradictory answers of:

      or

      So which is it?? The Lemmy devs priorities are their own and their priorities don't line up with most of the community; or their priorities are beholden to what NLNet says so they don't get paid??

      • So which is it?? The Lemmy devs priorities are their own and their priorities don't line up with most of the community; or their priorities are beholden to what NLNet says so they don't get paid??

        Both.

        NLnet works like:

        • You come up with a project, with whatever priorities you want, and split it into some tasks.
        • If NLnet deems it worthy, they'll pay you for each task they consider you completed successfully.

        Until community donations, or commercial services (which are compatible with NLnet), exceed what they're getting paid by NLnet, they're beholden to prioritize tasks that NLnet has agreed to pay for.

        If those tasks "don't line up with most of the community"... well, tough luck. The community is free to contribute or donate more.

        Yes, adding or changing tasks is possible, but it still requires NLnet approval to get paid.

        PS: in those threads there is mention of not addressing lolicon "pornography" as a priority... keep in mind NLnet projects are EU funded with an EU perspective, and multiple countries in the EU consider lolicon "fictional non-realistic" drawings as "not pornography". For the realistic ones, maybe @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com could weigh in on the blocking statistics.

    • The focus of Lemmy devs is on the server side, with the rest basically a MVP to keep ongoing funding (NLnet funding is tricky on its own, the main two devs have little room to do anything they didn’t get pre-approved for, if they want to get paid).

      That's not actually true. You can discuss with NLNet and change your tasks midway.

      • You can discuss it, NLnet is under no obligation to approve any changes. Their philosophy is one of "we'd sooner return the funds to the EU rather than waste them on low return projects/tasks".

        I've done some research about projects NLnet funded (considering to apply myself), and some of the postmortem read like horror stories. People would ask NLnet to change tasks as a project evolved, NLnet would refuse, meanwhile people would spend their time on what they thought was best for the project, only to later find out NLnet considered some of the tasks unfinished and refused payment, ending up with people effectively carrying a project with extras, only to get paid for half of the original tasks and none of the extras.

        If I were to work with NLnet funding, you can bet I would focus strictly on approved tasks and be wary of changing any of them.

  • If I had a nickel for every time a FOSS project was killed by shitty lead devs, I'd have a lot of nickels.

    • If I had a nickel for every time a FOSS project got forked and left the old leads in the dust... I wonder who'd end up with more nickels 🤷

      • Me because that takes more effort than just being a bastard dev from hell. But I'd like to see it happen this time.

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