2d ago

I hate when bombing civilians and stripping rights distracts from the only issue that matters smh 😔

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I get the sentiment, but it is the case that MAGA is very happy about the stripping of civil rights (for others) and indifferent to supportive on the War on Gaza.
But they are (used to be?) not indifferent to powerful pedophiles running the country. If you want the slaughter to end, if you want civil rights restored, this is the issue that makes it happen.
- But they are (used to be?) not indifferent to powerful pedophiles running the country
  Hate to break it to you, but they are completely indifferent to that, as long as it is their pedophiles running the country. Are people new here? Are you really so oblivious as to how fascists words work that you naively take them upon it?
  
  My MAGA father brought up the Epstein files to me last time we had a coherent discussion. He did feel the need to mention Bill Clinton was in them, but it was clear that cracks had formed.
  We need to hammer President Pedophile with the Epstein files non-stop.
  It's not the only issue, and it horrifyingly isn't even the worst issue, but if it can serve as the thin edge of the wedge, it's important to not let up.
  
  If that works in your specific situation, then great. Keep doing it.
  But I don't think it's a one size fits all solution
  
  I did not make it clear how significant this is.
  If you look at the bookshelves in my parents' house, you'll see swastikas staring back at you.
  It doesn't have to be a one size fits all situation. However, if it erodes support among the deeply committed, most fascist faithful, there's a chance that this doesn't have to end with EVERYONE dying.
- At best, it was a way for them to express frustrations using language they understand. However, what's actually driving their anger is usually the economy, so it isn't Epstein that actually makes the difference. It's also a moot point anyways because nothing will restore rights short of Trump dying, as he's never gonna leave office before that happens.
  What this meme is about is people callously acting like Epstein is the only issue that matters, bringing it up when something genuinely terrible happens. It treats these issues like they don't matter, like the problem with the GOP is nothing more than political team sports. It makes my blood boil when lives are genuinely being ruined and all some people care about is the well established fact that he's a pedophile.
  People can complain about Epstein, but that need to stop bringing it up in unrelated conversations about Trump.
  
  I agree with you that the Epstein case is relatively small compared to the millions of people who Trump is causing to suffer. However, the Epstein files also seem to be the first thing that cracked his base of political support. It is a weakness that anyone against Trump should exploit, not because it's the most important issue, but because it's the one that is most likely to remove him from power.
  Deporting immigrants, locking up trans people, outlawing abortion, destroying free speech and political opposition, supporting genocide... These are all things that his base WANTS. They rejoice in the suffering of the "other". They care about the economy too, but they're told dumb to realize that Trump is the problem.
  
  That's all well and good, but like I said, keep it the fuck out of serious conversation, especially on here. There aren't gonna be many Trumpers on this platform, as leftists and queer people are such a major population that they'd struggle to tolerate it. At most there are very mild conservatives who are usually not beyond reaching with actual arguments. I would get this argument more if we were on a corpo platform, but on this one you're just distracting from issues we actually care about.
  edit: spelling
  
  You're making a lot of broad assumptions about audiences. And "serious conversation"... My sibling in Satan this is c/politicalmemes.
  These memes don't just stay on Lemmy either. They get reposted all across the internet, printed on stickers and posters and t-shirts. The UK just jailed journalists last week for the terrible crime of projecting a picture of Trump and Epstein together on a building during Trump's visit. It's very much a topical issue that is heavily tied to broader issues of free speech and political corruption. And it's not just about Trump- how many other powerful people are in those files that faced no consequences? This isn't distracting from other issues- it's a part of them. All of these other issues seem to always track back to billionaires promoting horrible inhuman behavior and fascism, so I don't see how the Epstein files are distracting from anything.
  I'm also critical of Biden and Garland for not doing more with this when they were in power. This isn't
  
  It doesn't just happen here genius. I've seen such reaction images on news stories about the administration looking to label antifa as terrorists. This is a seriously scary move that will be used to silence any dissent, but apparently it's all a fucking distraction from well established pedophilia by a man above the law.
  I really I shouldn't be surprised by the reaction here. If we're talking about audience, I know a lot of people here are the ones who need to see this meme.
  
  It doesn't really matter where it is
  
  The thing I hate most about Lemmy is what a fucking circlejerk it is.
  I know people are gonna read this and make deeply frowny faces and try to poke me with their little arrows but we have to get better about identifying what a fucking bubble we all fall into.
  These kinds of sites are the same as what the right uses, but the left gets far less out of them for affecting change and good outcomes. They're feed-troughs to get people gathered together, getting their feelings out of their system, without actually going out and challenging power and facing the opposition. It's like when you have a great idea for a novel and you tell your bored friends all about it and that gets the inspiration out of your system so you never pursue it.
  
  It is true that Lemmy sucks for having substantial reach. If I wanted to reach the largest possible audience for advocacy's sake, I would use corpo socials. They optimize for the largest reach because that's where they make money, so it's hard for a non profit effort to compete.
  However, that's not why I use Lemmy. I don't use it for building a mass movement, but for building community free of corporate interference. A place where we don't have fascists debating the existence of trans people. This isn't a town square, but a collection of punk clubs that kick Nazis out without needing to appeal to some landlord.
  Also, in case you haven't noticed, the Overton Window is being legally pushed to the right by the largest English speaking government in the world. There is no freedom of speech or dissent, and corporate media will fully cooperate with the government in their efforts to ban any left wing organizing. There is no marketplace of ideas to debate in on those platforms, as even when there wasn't open fascism like now, the right were always given more leeway to be radical. Pre musk Twitter protected fascist accounts like Libs of Tik Tok while those accounts now run both the government and the companies.
  At least here we can always rebuild if instances get censored. At least here we can be more than censored opposition.
  
  Epstein files also seem to be the first thing that cracked his base of political support.
  We all need to get a lot better about actually visiting and reading right-wing websites and groups. Even if they are painfully stupid and infuriating, we have to know the reality of what they think and feel.
  This is because for every huge story that breaks, the media splits it into two angles. One set of headlines pandering to the right, and another pandering to the left.
  Because of this, Epstein had a far smaller long-term impact on the right than we think. They have already moved on, every bit of "outrage" was performative and lip-service to the few right-wingers who want to feel intellectually honest. (Very few of them.)
  They are celebrating in the streets right now, they feel they are winning and they don't actually care about child sex trafficking, largely most of them attached to that cause because it feels objectively good and they all want to be the "good guys." That storyline is over, they've moved on to new storylines.
  
  Have you actually talked to any of them?
  I've seen a lot of houses in my city that I noted as having Trump flags have taken them down this summer. My Republican family members, and those of my friends, certainly aren't sharing that sense of victory you're claiming to see. They remember that Trump promised to release the files and haven't. They're all riled up ready to prosecute Bill Clinton and wondering why Trump has gone soft.
  And literally just last week the UK arrested 2 men for projecting a picture of Trump and Epstein together during his visit, which has brought a ton more attention to the story. It's not going away just because you seem to want it to.
  
  No, I'm trans and they probably won't even talk to me unless I put great effort into passing perfectly as cis. Even then, if I ever slip up it's over. I'm also brown which means some people will see me as untrustworthy no matter what I do.
  
  It’s not going away just because you seem to want it to.
  I thought you had a good counterpoint up until you tried to be smug edgy dude. Fuck off, understand what's at stake and why people like myself are worried that the left is going to get stuck spinning it's wheels in a procedural issue while we're literally losing the constitution. You can care about Epstein and keep pushing on it, I don't give a fuck, just stop calling everything else major that happens a "distraction" like it doesn't matter.
  
  I didn't call anything a distraction, and I doubt you throwing out insults or telling me to "fuck off" is going to change anyone's mind but okay. Your own comments are full of smug jokes that I chuckled without needing to personally attack you over.
  
  I have yet to see any indication that a single person is trying to paint Gaza as a distraction from the Epstein files . This post seems pretty fishy to me.
  
  Who said Gaza specifically? Do I need to provide an example of that in particular for you to believe it's a problem, or is the meme here from a day ago about Jimmy Kimmel not proof enough?
  
  Okay so what does "bombing civilians" refer to then? Also, I don't know what meme you're talking about, but I'm not sure a single post/meme would prove your point.
  
  I was talking about the Venezuelans murdered in international waters. When the war was escalating people called it a distraction, even though it's predictably led to violent acts of terror in Latin America. I do not have that saved, but I do have an instance of people talking about Epstein in another comm.
  The Kimmel meme
  
  OK, so I did see posts about the Venezuelans, but not that it was a "distraction". The two linked examples you provided here seem like entirely fair to think may be intended as distractions. When the president is an actual pedophile, why wouldn't he do insane shit to distract from that fact? Things like this can both definitely be distractions and also expressions of power meant to tamp down criticism of the administration.
  
  If you think both of those examples are fair and valid, we will never bridge this gap. Just know that it's very upsetting when you elevate this issue above others, so don't be surprised when you face pushback.
  
  ... why is it that people think there's no way to care about more than one thing at a time? We can keep pushing for the Epstein files and care about other things too. It sort of seems like you advocate for forgetting them. Are you?
  
  … why is it that people think there’s no way to care about more than one thing at a time?
  Because a lot of the time the people saying this don’t actually talk about the other thing they supposedly care about. If someone comes into an unrelated thread and starts talking about the Epstein files instead of the topic, how is anyone supposed to divine that they actually care about both things?
  I don’t believe for a second that this would be anyone’s reaction if I was bringing up trans rights in every single thread about Trump, including ones specifically about the Epstein files.
  
  The Epstein files are getting brought up because for once there is a chance at chipping away at right wing support. And we shouldn't blow it
  
  It is quite literally every single article involving Trump doing something awful that isn't related to Epstein.
  It has maybe slowed down a bit in the past week or so, but it's still everywhere. You need to pay attention more if you're truly not seeing it.
  
  I never said I wasn't seeing people calling things a distraction period. Most every time I've noticed it, it seems a fair point.
  
  People have said the charlie kirk shooting was a distraction.
  People have said that Israel announcing plans to occupy gaza were a distraction.
  People have said that Beazelel (I don't respect him enough to spell his name right) Smotrich announcing he wants to annex the west bank is a distraction.
  
  A comment I made elsewhere about people bringing up Epstein:
  Just something to think about here - republicans all seem pretty gung-ho on the fascism, and they have control of everything right now. Do you think pointing it out will change republican minds? Those in office and those who are the voters backing them up.
  Personally, I don't see that happening. You'll get some halfhearted dissent here and there, but I think thats mostly cover.
  So, what would cause a major split or shift? I think solid confirmation of Trump making use of Epstein's 'services' could do that. Maybe it won't, I can't predict the future (obviously). It seems much more likely than pointing out how rights are being stripped away (again and again), because they haven't cared about our rights yet.
  That doesn't mean I think we should ignore what's happening, just that I think there is substantial value in making sure the Epstein files don't just disappear. If there wasn't, I don't think they would be trying so hard to deflect/ignore/cover up anything related to it.
  There are some people who tall about the economy, but let's be honest there too - the wealthy will use a bad economy to buy things up, meanwhile the soybean farmers praying (literally) to Trump think he has some grand plan and this hurt is temporary.
  Its the same with taking away peoples rights to be who they are, or to even speak about who they are - they agree with it because its hurting the people they want it to. They won't see the hypocrisy.
  If trump supporters can see Trump as a child abuser and liar, then maybe they'll see he was lying about other things too. Maybe they'll recognize that the people who were chest thumping about Epstein files that suddenly went quiet - the ones that fill up their Facebook feed and their alt right TV network - are also liars and manipulators.
  Guaranteed? No. But a realistic approach thats gained traction.
  
  I'm still very skeptical about the approach because Trump's friendship with Epstein has been well known, while conservatives advocating child marriages never seemed to dissuade the base much in the past. However, I'm not asking people to stop talking about, I'm asking that it not be brought up when serious shit is going down. It's so fucked up.
  
  The only thing about it now is how hard he is falling against releasing anything - which makes it seem like there is enough to really cause problems.
  And I get it on some posts, its pretty excessive to bring up in some situations.

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