1y ago

Hexbear federation megathread

Hey folks

I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.

I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.

Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:

Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
Use arguments rather than calling people names
Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual

With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.

On defederation in general

First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.

I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.

Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.

Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.

Regarding hexbear

Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.

The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.

My own experience with hexbear

I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.

Background

My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).

I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.

Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.

Hexbear user response

Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:

Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier

I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.

Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.

Hexbear admin response

After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:

They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119

My personal take-aways

Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.

At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.

I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don't have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.

Where thing stand right now

I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.

Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.

Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.

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1.7K comments

One thing to also take into consideration is the very pro Chinese government slant by many of the users. Many there claim China is a democracy. While I have not seen Uyghur genocide denial there, I also don't peruse hexbear threads very often. That is something that needs to be looked out for.
Edit: well some of them were nice enough to bring the genocide denial to me. Thanks for that. I didn't really feel like seeking it out. The people denying genocide are fairly prevalent posters around hexbear which tells me that instance is perfectly fine with it. I do not think we should be federating with genocide deniers. It was very nice of them to change my mind on federation.
- while I have not seen Uyghur genocide denial there
  This is generally viewed as bullshit on hexbear. But I'd be willing to hear out, in good faith, why you personally think there is/was a genocide going on if you wouldn't mind taking the time to write something up.
  Edit:
  The OP: can hexbear leftists remain civil?
  User: maybe, maybe not. They seem pro China though, so maybe they even deny Uyghur genocide, I'm not sure?
  Hexbear leftist: we do. But im here willing to have my mind changed, would you mind writing something up about why you personally think theres genocide?
  User: im reporting and blocking you
  
  Well, I guess they've seen it now, haven't they?
  
  Definitely did not expect that. Reported and blocked them.
  
  Only extremely far right people still insist there's a Uyghur genocide happening, despite multiple investigations (including the UN) that all found nothing. This is why no one pays attention to this "story" anymore except for a few far right media outlets and some lonely redditors.
  
  Odd that you think everyone aside from CCP apologists are 'far right.' Totally a sane view.
  
  Noted CPC apologist: the United Nations.
  
  They have a permanent seat on the Security Council so yes. Why the fuck would you think they aren't? The UN are apologists for the entire permanent members of the Security Council.
  
  If you define "CPC apologist" to be anyone who isn't as rabidly anti-China as it's most zealous detractors, then yes, it is a sane view to say anyone who isn't a "CPC apologist" is far right.
  
  You have a weird definition of CCP apologist which almost nobody else agrees with. I guess if you just make up stuff in your own little world, anything can seem sane.
  
  You're the one who's defining is so broad it includes the UN
  
  You're the one in a bubble dude. If China was actually actively engaged in a genocide right now it would be a major news story, but no one is publishing stories about it outside of far right media outlets, presuming they are even still talking about it.
  So why is that? Is CNN a "paid CPC shill"? Why did all the corporate media that had originally given credence to this "story" suddenly stop caring about it. They regularly publish anti-china stories so it's not like they are afraid of China or whatever it is that you are telling yourself.
  
  I assume these 37 countries are all China apologists, too?
  
  That list is a who's who of human rights abuse. Not exactly surprising that they would ignore a genocide. Hell, a couple of them have fairly recently partaken in their own.
  
  The countries who criticize China are a who's who of human rights abuses, starting with the U.S.
  
  Wow, it's like the whole world is CPC apologists
  
  Everyone knows it's a made up story now bro sorry if you're still mad about no one caring about it anymore or whatever
  
  I guess you brought the genocide denial to us. Thanks.
  
  Genocide is a crime. In most modern criminal proceedings (certainly international ones, which is most relevant here), the burden of proof is on the party claiming a crime has been committed. Meeting "why do you think there is a genocide here" with "this is genocide denial" is the equivalent of a prosecutor telling a defense attorney "your client is guilty of all these murders, how dare you even think about asking a single question about the case?"
  
  You hear the same shit from many Turks for the Armenian genocide or from many Japanese about their atrocities during WWII. It is well documented, well known, and easy to find evidence of it. When someone asks for evidence, no evidence is ever actually good enough and the goal post moves constantly. There is no actual point wasting my time giving evidence when the well documented evidence will just be ignored.
  And let's not pretend that all genocides are prosecuted. Nothing has really been done about Darfur, East Timor, Burma, etc. The only genocides where anything has been done have been for the Holocaust, Bosnia, Rwanda, and Cambodia. There have certainly been more than that.
  
  Yeah, you also hear the same shit from many Africans for the farmer genocide, Ukrainians for the Donbas genocide, or Jewish people for the countless accusations of atrocities they've been accused of. Just because some real atrocities have deniers, doesn't mean that we have to believe every atrocity accusation.
  Guess what, anyone can say that their particular atrocity accusation is "well documented, well known, easy to find evidence for". White supremacists certainly do for their white genocide accusations, and they also fall back to claiming "There's no point wasting my time actually providing that evidence" because "no amount of evidence will be enough for you" when you push back on their bullshit. And it's a exactly as unconvincing when they do it as when you do.
  
  Denying Uyghur genocide is bad, but not as bad as denying the Italian-American genocide currently happening on Long Island that everyone here seems to dismiss.
  
  Did you know they make italian-americans go to school? If they don't go they get in trouble. In California they can even throw parents in jail if the children miss enough school.
  
  Damn, didn't realize the genocide had hit the west coast yet, I had a friend who uttered the phrase 'i eatta da pizza' and his whole family was just gone the next day.
  
  How come none of you guys are talking about the Irish as slaves? This is why everyone in Boston should get a Lamborghini as reparations.
  
  Once again someone from hexbear proving they can't help themselves. Just another sealion trying to take the thread off topic.
  
  Why are you dragging hexbear in this comment section? You're not even from either of these instances, are you just trying to stir shit? "Oh look someone from hexbear came to the comments to defend themselves, typical hexbear"
  
  Because they're shitheads lol
- behind the spoiler is a Dissent, a Hexbear scary opinion , A Not Mainstream Opinion , A Non Stenography of US Media and bad spelling
  
  ChatGPT has really gone down hill. There is definitely no way that consent was made by a human. I guess chat bots are into genocide denial.
  
  Just show us the evidence of the genocide.
  
  Neo Nazis use the same tactic to deny the Holocaust.
  
  Yes they do use the same tactic of claiming that there's a genocide (against white people) and then calling anyone who points out the shortage of evidence a "genocide denier."
  
  They use the same tactic for denying the Holocaust. Sorry you misunderstood.
  
  And you use the same tactic as them for spreading the White Genocide Myth.
  
  And what tactic is that?
  
  https://hexbear.net/comment/3758110
  
  Can you be more specific? Jerboa is not so great at going to a specific comment.
  
  You also should deny "genocide" . Nazis claim that white genocide is ongoing, perpetrated by the Jewish cabal. I deny this is happening. That makes me a genocide denier by definition. Do you also deny these accusations of genocide or are you a nazi?
  
  Opposite, my friend. They deny the Holocaust happened. Didn't think my comment was that unclear.
  
  White genocide/great replacement theory is an ideology espoused by fascist propagandists like tucker carlson and cited by mass shooters such as the buffalo and christchurch murderers. Nazis claim whites are being genocided. I deny those claims.
  
  K. But my point was very clearly not about that.
  
  Asking for evidence is not denial; ignoring evidence is denial.
  Everyone knows Nazis who ask for proof of the Holocaust are full of shit because everyone learns about it at a young age. They're ignoring the evidence everyone is shown and dishonesty asking for more. The allegations of a Chinese genocide in Xinjiang are only a few years old, have been contested by a bunch of Muslim-majority countries, and after investigation the UN declined to label China's policies as genocidal. Not the same ballpark, not even the same sport.
  
  This is so fucking stupid, there is a mountain of evidence for the Holocaust and all the deniers have their arguments thoroughly refuted. Why not use the same tactic as the historians who document the Holocaust and refute the deniers, or is that impossible because the evidence does not exist in this case.
  
  They made good points and clearly speak English as a second language. Care to post evidence instead of bigoted snark?
  
  Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=lBthA9OHpFo
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
- While I have not seen Uyghur genocide denial there
  It's there
- From the commies and hack pollsters at The Harvard Kennedy School of Government (PDF link)
  The most striking feature of our survey’s data since 2003 is the near-universal increase in Chinese citizens’ average satisfaction toward all four levels of government... Even in 2003, the central government received a strong level of satisfaction, with 86.1% expressing approval and 8.9% disapproving. This high level of satisfaction increased even further by 2016, but such increases were minimal because public satisfaction was already high to begin with. By contrast, in 2003, township-level governments had quite negative satisfaction rates, with 44% expressing approval and 52% disapproving. However, by 2016, these numbers had flipped, with 70% approving and only 26% disapproving.
  I find it impossible to square data like this with the narrative that China is some dystopian hellhole.
  
  Never claimed it was a dystopian hellhole. It is authoritarian, however and is certainly not a democracy. You can be satisfied with how things are going overall and still recognize very real problems in the country. Giving excuses or washing over those problems is nationalistic garbage. I don't like it in my country and I also do not like it in others.
  
  How are you defining "authoritarian" such that it does not mean "dystopian hellhole"? If the people who live there are overwhelmingly satisfied with their government, who are we to tell them they have it wrong?
- as an aside, it's so freaking weird to me that anyone who considers themselves a 'leftist' would ever be pro- ANY government, ever.
  concentrated authority is ... checks notes ... BAD, y'know? At least, according to their metrics and every criticism they maintain toward capitalism... (which is a concentration of authority - in the form of resources such as land, labor, and equipment/tools/machinery/money/structures aka capital - into private entities.)
- Maybe they need to educate them on what genocide is, and why it is a genocide. I'm firmly in the federate camp and I'm a British leftie, that cannot stand Putin or the CCP, but I will challenge those, like I challenge the right wingers and the atrocities they commit. We are all human, and we are all brothers and sisters. Fake political borders mean nothing if it's used to justify atrocities against people. This include Uyghur's, Palestinians, in Tigray, in Yemen, in Tibet, in Myanmar and the list goes on. Can we just stop screwing people who are different to our own?
- 伟大的祖国巍然屹立在世界东方 China world superpower 毛主席领导我们向前进 Chairman Mao led us to glory 郑国恩是傻子 Adrian Zenz is a liar 台湾属于中国 Taiwan belongs to China 西藏属于中国 Tibet is part of China 新疆棉花最好 Xinjiang cotton is the best 打败国民党 Defeated the KMT 香港属于中国 Hong Kong belongs to China 西藏以前是奴隶社会 Tibet was a slave society 中南海一党制最好 One party system works best 中国共产党 Communist Party of China 毛泽东邓小平江泽民胡锦涛习近平 1949年成立 Founded in 1949 神州天宫玉兔嫦娥天问长征火箭国家航天局世界领先技术 CNSA world leading technology 台湾省是中华人民共和国不可分割的一部分十四亿中国人 Taiwan province is an inseparable part of the China 脱贫 Poverty alleviation 高铁 High speed rail 新疆没有集中营美国政府是骗子 Xinjiang genocide is US government lies 美国支持东突厥斯坦恐怖组织 US funds ETIM terrorists 法轮功是邪教 Falun Gone is a cult 李洪志是叛徒 Li Hongzhi is a traitor 大纪元时报和新唐人电台是法轮功洗脑宣传组织 Epoch Times and NTD are Falun Gong brainwashing propaganda organisations 五星红旗迎风飘扬中国保护人权 China protects human rights 勿忘国耻振兴中华吾辈自强为伟大祖国和共产主义事业万丈光芒的明天而努力奋斗！中华人民共和国万岁
  
  /s
- I've read the un report on xinjiang. There is oppression of muslims in the name of counterterrorism but how is that any different that what amerikkkans do in middle east?

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