no-state solution
no-state solution
cross-posted from: https://quokk.au/post/6888554
Inspired by: "UK and France abandon plans to recognise Palestinian state at conference"
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57 comments
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What kind of logic is that? The tool exists and it takes 30 seconds to achieve a comparable result to what would've taken 10-30 minutes doing manually depending on user's skills. Is it only ok to use image generation for hard-to-do stuff?
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Go make a Poland ball cartoon.
Start right now. I'm timing you.
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I think you're confused. I am a human being, not your favorite slop machine. Besides, this is missing the main point of what I said.
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Times a ticking and no Poland ball yet. You are losing critical seconds
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Remember that the circle tool is not allowed.
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Yes, really. And I actually think I was quite conservative with time requirements.
And why can't you only judge the idea/joke aspect of the work? Sure, the execution didn't require much effort, but the point was to convey* the idea/joke.
Are holodeck programs in StarTrek automatically worthless because to create them people merely instruct the Computer what and where to put?
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The expression is in the concept not the execution.
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There's no point in trying to debate or reason with anti-AI trolls, most of them are neolibs or just regular libs anyway. If they weren't they wouldn't be barfing out the same tired ass talking points and using ad-hominem to attack logical rebuttals to their arguments.
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You massively misinterpreting what creativity is. It's not just "having a vague idea".
Would it be creativity, that instead of writing a book I just published an idea (prompt) for a book?
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You massively exaggerate what creativity is. It’s not just “drawing a shape”.
Would it be creative if I took an image macro, scribbled out 1 word and drew another on top like 90% of all handmade memes are today? Yes, it would.
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You can just use premade polandball characters. like we did in the good old days...
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This IS human expression. Human had a concept and realized it using a tool. Human expression comes in many shapes and forms. How is this any less effort than adding caption to a template image, which is 80% of regular memes? IMO, you're just biased and don't treat it fairly.
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I am, in fact, biased against things that destroy the environment.
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not to reply to two of your comments, just hanging around town rn ig lmao.
but:
better stop browsing the internet period, then. the last time you watched youtube or streamed anything it consumed far more system resources and it produced far more pollution than the vast majority of machine learning is even remotely capable of. why pick on the data centers used for AI when they’re handily outnumbered by infrastructure for other equally, if not more vain corpo products?
i genuinely mean this question in good faith, but, are you and others who harp on the environment in this discourse just ignorant of how the entire modern technology sector is actually built and runs? if your answer is anything but yes, then, why is your position objectively inconsistent and arbitrary? are you just too in the shit to realize you actually hate corporations and companies, not artificial intelligence technologies?
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the last time you watched youtube or streamed anything it consumed far more system resources and it produced far more pollution than the vast majority of machine learning is even remotely capable of. why pick on the data centers used for AI when they’re handily outnumbered by infrastructure for other equally, if not more vain corpo products?
I'd like to see a source on that, first of all. Second, "banning video content" isn't really a viable or realistic option, and would also put a lot of people out of work, and the existence of video content provides value in education, artistic expression, and entertainment. AI slop does not, it's wholly unnecessary, ugly, limits expression, puts artists out of work, etc.
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Well, first, Deloitte says data centers as a whole only account for 2% of global energy use.
This means that while yes, artificial intelligence is hogging an increasing portion of system resources and compute globally: it is still only a very, very small fraction of the energy usage of humanity as a whole or even the tech industry alone.
According to your own source's numbers, AI's share of data-center electricity usage is roughly 82 terawatt (also your Wired article's author misspells terawatt as terrawatt the entire time, maybe it is a spelling I've just never seen?) hours, roughly similar to the annual electricity consumption of Switzerland. Sounds bad, right?
Well, yes, but actually, no.
Global energy consumption this year is around 34,000 TWh. That means that if data centers represented 2% of global energy use, data centers this year used around ~500-700 TWh total. (34,000 * 0.02 == 680)
That means that, again, using Wired's own value of 82 TWh, AI alone represents only around 12% of global data center energy usage. Keep in mind that is not 12% of global energy usage, it is 12% of the global 2% energy usage data centers are collectively responsible for, meaning AI is responsible for a fucking staggering ~0.24% of global energy use.
What is the other 88%, of data center energy usage, you might ask? A bunch of corpo bullshit, including, namely; infrastructure for social media, streaming, and all this other shitass tech everyone readily accepted with no qualms until the spooky "AI" boogeyman made people wake up about the wider environmental impacts of big tech.
Except, not really though. Because as we see, most people are like you, and have a weird laser-focused obsession with the energy usage of AI in particular. You are doing a disservice to environmentalism by being intentionally ignorant of the wider implications of these statistics and their context. Don't believe every sensationalized fucking Wired article you find after doing a Google search, friend.
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Sorry to cut in, but I have to hard disagree here.
The post in question has given someone the possibility of creating an image on par quality of any other *ball meme and saved about 20-30 minutes of work. It is an artistic expression, isn't more or less ugly than other *ball memes of similar type, enhanced the expression of OP (who would had worse results for more work), and no artist can subsist on the creation of memes.
Also, it is very possible to create stuff like this on consumer grade hardware, taking not much more power than running a video game.
I agree that AI CAN be used to create piss-poor excuses for art or to push artists out of their work, but it's the corpo's doing that, not the technology. I also groan everytime AI gets shoehorned into another thing where it simply does not offer anything useful, but it surely makes a difference if a corp uses AI as cost-cutting measure, or a private person uses it to enrich their life, which - we shouldn't forget that - the technology should be there for.
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Also, it is very possible to create stuff like this on consumer grade hardware, taking not much more power than running a video game.
This is the one thing the Anti-AI trolls can't wrap their heads around or if they can they refuse to and instead try to strawman their previous point, because without that part their argument is purely copyright apologia.
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These anti-ai trolls are like religious zealots... always happy to give you their unwanted opinions.
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Is it against the rules to deride the use of image generation models in this community? Clarifying because your rules section says nothing about it.
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It's against the rules to attack and brigade users and communities which allow GenAI, that's a dbzer0 instance rule which was voted on in !div0_governance@lemmy.dbzer0.com, @Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com I don't think that ever got added to the sidebar, but it probably should be soon.
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Ahhh, yes i see the post in the div0 governance community. Thanks for clarifying.
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someone reported this comment with the report reason "Anti-AI Trolling in an AI friendly community"
What makes this an AI-friendly community? I just read the sidebar and don't see anything about AI.
I do see however that this community's list of rules includes this peculiar pair:
- Only post socialist memes
- Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
🤔
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If the community rules don't ban GenAI images then you can assume a) they are allowed, and b) complaining about them is not allowed.
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someone reported this comment with the report reason “Anti-AI Trolling in an AI friendly community”
I like how people are treating any criticism of AI as "trolling." Like, it's one thing to tolerate AI images, but apparently there's a bunch more devout techbros around here than I realized.
Edit: Lmao, it got removed! Trolling now officially means, "Disagreeing with me, about anything, in any way, for any reason."
Only post socialist memes
Don’t idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
A surprisingly common set of beliefs.
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The problem is the anti-genAI crowd show up in numbers on almost every post containing AI images to pontificate about why they think "AI slop" should be tagged (although even when it is, they shift the goalposts and we still get complaints - this post is a good example). In effect this completely derails the post comments to be all about genAI instead of the community/post theme. Some of our community mods have experienced significant bullying and harassment over this topic, which is why we put the rule in place. I'm not going to re-litigate it here, but if you check out our !div0_governance@lemmy.dbzer0.com community there is an extensive discussion about it there.
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The problem is the anti-genAI crowd show up in numbers
Sorry that your position is massively unpopular?
although even when it is, they shift the goalposts and we still get complaints - this post is a good example
How is this post an example of that when it isn't tagged?
Some of our community mods have experienced significant bullying and harassment
Does "saying AI is bad" count as "significant bullying and harassment?" What about, "saying comments shouldn't be removed for criticizing AI?" Because apparently those things count as, "trolling" so I'm not sure what standards you're using here.
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The problem is the anti-genAI crowd show up in numbers
Sorry that your position is massively unpopular?
What data are you basing this ridiculous claim off? It's already been thoroughly debunked. In reality most folks simply don't care about it, or are ok with using genAI. That's certainly true of our instance users, in any case. And looking at genAI posts in this community, they have way more upvotes than downvotes. Nobody has been able to explain to me how that equates to GenAI as being "massively unpopular". It's unpopular with a bunch of liberals on LW, and a handful of mostly western leftists who are so entrenched in the neo-liberal economic mindset that they can't conceive of fighting against copyrights. Of course artists should be properly paid, but not via this ridiculous system of copyright law which mainly acts to protect corporate interests over individuals.
How is this post an example of that when it isn’t tagged?
It is mentioned in the original post that it is an AI generated image, which is why this discussion started in the first place because it wasn't otherwise obvious. I'm saying even though this post was tagged, it didn't stop off-topic hate comments about genAI from derailing the comments.
Does “saying AI is bad” count as “significant bullying and harassment?” What about, “saying comments shouldn’t be removed for criticizing AI?” Because apparently those things count as, “trolling” so I’m not sure what standards you’re using here.
This is a disingenuous comment. The removal reason for those off topic comments wasn't "bullying and harassment" it was "comment trolling" which is why there were only removals and no bans. If the post isn't about AI then yes, that's just comment trolling as far as I'm concerned. Online bullying and harassment over this topic is absolutely occurring, whether or not you are aware of it. One case is documented in the !div0_governance@lemmy.dbzer0.com community post I previously mentioned. We moderate this instance accordingly to the overwhelming majority preference of our instance users on this topic, and I don't apologize for it.
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not to speak for everyone here but the standard is that our community is very clearly marked as generally pro-AI and we get tired of seeing the same four half baked rhetorical points from people like you over and over again. frankly, if you’re upset by AI then you probably should block all of db0. we don’t want that here anyway, hence the rule. healthy discourse is fine but you’re sitting here making multiple comments about genAI in a post that has nothing to do with it. it’s a nuisance at best and inflammatory at worst. i feel for you when it comes to dealing with poorly marked or conveyed rules/enforcement. i agree the administration could make this more clear, especially for users using alternative frontends for lemmy.
sOrRy tHaT yOuR POsItIoN iS MASsiVely uNpoPulAAAaaaAarrrR????
most of us could actually not give less of a fuck, to be entirely honest with you. we’re more focused on actually contributing to things. some of us, namely, would like to focus on building and using machine learning toolchains without hearing about olympic size swimming pools or people’s unrequited opinions on “AI” every five fucking seconds. that’s because in this case, the popular opinion is the reactionary opinion. being anti-AI is a reactionary position and the popularity of it’s a reflection of the zeitgeist.
i think genAI is art, i think machine learning itself is art. the idea that the massive amounts of cognitive work accumulating over decades, that very talented engineers and researchers have poured their hearts and souls into just to be able to bring these systems into reality… the idea that is anything but a pure expression of the human condition - and hence art - is patently fucking absurd and i’m sick of seeing the anti-AI diatribe in any way, shape, or form. our admins are great. just because a position is popular doesn’t mean it isn’t fucking brain-dead stupid.
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Yeah, I originally joined dbzero because its an anarchist instance and I am an anarchist, but grew to dislike it cause of how pro-AI it is. So I swapped to slrpnk. But slrpnk is down and so I am stuck using dbzero till its back up.
I find it kinda wild that they are so pro-AI too cause all of the friends I have that are anarchists are varying degrees of anti-AI. Personally, I would be fine with AI if we lived in an anarchist society because no one would be negatively affected by it. However we don't, so there is only a very very small niche use case where you can use AI ethically. Otherwise I see it as scabbing. Being anti-copyright shouldn't mean walking all over artists and other creators.
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"Repeat after me: Memes ... are ... not ... created ... by ... artists"
"Memes ... are .... not ... created ... by ... --breathes in-- AI IS STARVING CREATORS"
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Also blatantly lie about facts to push their own agenda, and insist or assert that they're actually true, hoping no one will seriously challenge them. Strawmen and ad-hominems are their favorite tactics to use in their debates. Someone should make a meme about this behavior and how it's mostly turbolib garbage.
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57 comments