Common Ground
Common Ground
We have to agree where we ARE before we stand a chance to agree about what we do from here.
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Yeah. Definitely don't need to take an responsibility for your actions. You can be both wrong and lied to. It's not like there wasn't 4 years of this already and a very large group of people telling you what was going to happen if you repeated your past mistakes.But no. Keep on blaming others for your fuck ups. No one is perfect. No one can blame you for this mess.Fuck you.Sorry, maybe that was too uncivil. Let me rephrase.
Conservatives are the neighborhood kid that keeps showing up to the park when the rest of us kids are playing soccer. We let the conservative play because we are trying to be inclusive, but this is the third time you've kicked the ball over the fence, and every time we go get it, you swear you'll play right, but then do it again. We don't want you on the playground any more. You aren't welcome to play. We don't care if you felt like you were lied to. You've been told how to behave, and you have chosen not to, time and time again. The rest of us aren't looking to take your hand in friendship and welcome you back. You've run out of second chances. Now, we just want you to sit at home and try not to mess anything else up. No one wants to be your friend.
You ever wonder how the right seems to move in lockstep while the left constantly debates between themselves about the details?
It's shit like this that fosters that attitude. If some people on the right can look at something like this and then really examine their positions then thats a win.
The goal with something like this isn't to get someone to 180 on their beliefs, they know that the government is untrustworthy. It's to have them really look at what they're supporting, and if they truly want those changes, after learning what it might cost them.
I don't want 180s. I don't want wishy-washy. I don't want fair weather friends. Why? Because they are untrustworthy. Oh, you flipped 180 and support trans rights now? How long until the next grifter comes along and scares you into thinking the drag community is stealing children? Oh, you're good with minorities having rights? Are you gonna feel that way the next time some old white man comes along and tells you they are bringing drugs into the country?
I'm sure you'd love to say that you'll stand by your convictions, but history has shown that you won't. Repeatedly you have changed your positions. Repeatedly you have flip-flopped. I don't care about you, anymore. Truly. Believe whatever you want to believe, just please do it quietly.
People are complicated and can carry multiple, nuanced beliefs. There are people out there that support LGBTQ+ rights, think that drag is fun, and believe that people of color get treated unfairly systemically without also wanting to take up arms in a violent revolution against the established systems in America because social progress is still happening, albeit slowly.
Every social media platform(Yes, even the independent ones) tends to remove all nuance and push every issue as binary, and sometimes worse than that, it will bundle issues together. There are people here that will argue in all seriousness that if you voted for the candidate that would've pushed forward progressive policies, that you also support the genocide in Gaza.
That is a cop out. You either take a stance or you don't. It is binary. If your choice of "fiscal conservatism" or whatever other blanket term you want to use also includes systemic racism, misogyny, and homophobia, it doesn't matter to me if you "don't believe in that". You still voted for the person that does, and that makes you just as bad.
There is no "nuance". Anyone that tells you that is only trying to get your vote. There are people who's lives are on the line. Those are who we vote for. Trickle down rights don't work any better than trickle down economics. We vote for women's right to choose. We vote for freedom to recognize your own sexual identity. We vote for safe havens for those seeking shelter from the storm. We vote to help our fellow human, because if we don't, then we have lost what it means to be human.
"Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much." -Helen Keller.
When a conservative leader wants to separate humans into groups like cattle, they are the enemy. It doesn't matter what your policy is, if it hurts my friends, it makes you the antithesis to my very being, and if you don't feel the same way, you are on the wrong side of things. I didn't vote for Trump because I can't vote for Trump. I also can't vote for any other conservative, because they are all culpable. They are all responsible. They are all accountable.
Hmmm why is it binary?... Let's brainstorm that... Could it be that you're reducing 77 million human lives to which of the two circles they filled out of a slip of paper?
Aside from Bernie and AOC, when is the last time anyone on the American left actually attempted to appeal directly to the lower working class? Why are there there ballots with votes for both AOC and Trump?
This is a bloc of groomed voters: undereducated, underpaid, and living in a homogeneous bubble where they don't see the consequences of fascism. The right has targeted their rhetoric to a sharp point, keeping this base strong even though their policies are the source of the oppression.
I went to high school in a small Midwestern town. NAFTA gutted our towns largest employer, outsourcing thousands of jobs. In a school with hundreds of students, there was ONE (1) PoC.
Like it or not, people vote for whoever promises to improve their lives the most. One party campaigns on reforming systemic racism for that one student; the other drills the lie that they're on foodstamps because the Democrats gave their jobs to foreigners.
When the status quo has failed them, why would they vote for a candidate like Kamala?
For an example of how this isn't useful, my dad (a long time ago) bought the rhetoric against gay marriage. The reasoning was that it was a thing done by the church, because that's the lie he'd been told. It was a lie, but he supported a bad thing because he'd been given a "good" reason. Once it was explained the church had nothing to do with it and it was a state issue, he realized it was wrong.
I could have just called him a bigot and pushed him further down that path, as a sort of revenge. What good would that do though. It might have made me feel better for a moment, but that's it. It wouldn't have cause any real change.
Your feelings, at the end of the day, matter little. Outcomes matter. If we can push some propaganda to get people who traditional vote conservative to vote liberal, that's worth it. We don't have to refuse to out of some backwards morality because they believed something in the past. It's cutting your nose off to spite your face. It only hurts you in the long term, even if it felt ideal in the moment.
We should focus on actually doing good and creating the best outcomes for trans people, the drag community, minorities, women, and everyone else. We shouldn't care about how it makes us feel.
You make the argument that this is all a new concept for people. That the issue of gay marriage or whatever is on the chopping block this week, is something that is a new topic. These topics have been at the forefront of conversation for decades now. And even if you somehow haven't been subject to the talking heads on every media outlet for the last 50 years, there is a level of common sense that I think is necessary to even walk upright that tells you, "Hey, these people should be able to marry whoever they want, because it has zero effect on my life."
Critical thinking is at an all time low. No one has been thinking for themselves in decades, it seems, and when there are consequences for their actions, they just think a half-assed apology is enough to get the job done, and they go one with their lives like nothing was ever wrong. I'm done with it. I'm done with the people that think that way. I don't have a place for them in my world. I don't want them near me, I don't want them interacting with me, and I don't want them to infect others with their disease.
Everyone has a right to live and a right to think what they want to think, but if you are wrong, then you are wrong, and if you continue to be wrong despite all of the evidence to the contrary, then you are a detriment to this species, and your role has to be minimized. I'm not going to advocate for taking away the rights of people I don't agree with, but I'm also sure as hell not going to welcome them with open arms when they finally decide to come around. They can continue to live their lives, and they can do the right thing from here on out, but being an asshole that suddenly gets it right doesn't get a pat on the back. It get's a shrug as I continue on my way. I've already wasted enough time and effort on changing hearts and minds. If they haven't got it by now, then I don't care if they ever do.
There are others out there that need my help more than the hillbilly lifelong GOP voter. They can fend for themselves. I'm not going to waste a breath on them when I am too busy fixing all of the shit they've been breaking. If they want to do good, great, get a hammer and some nails and get to work. If they don't, fine, just stop kicking out the supports we are trying to build to keep everyone else safe. Being a good person doesn't get a participation trophy. It doesn't even get weekends off. It's the baseline. It's the expectation. If they can't meet it, kick rocks.
The problem is they don't have all evidence to the contrary, as you say. They're told there's a massive issue of trans people playing sports and making impossible for women to compete, and things like that. They're given very impassioned reasons to believe that they're believing the morally correct thing. They're told it's to protect people. You just refuse to accept that your "opponent" can have the same moral reasons for doing something as you do.
There are others out there that need my help more than the hillbilly lifelong GOP voter. They can fend for themselves. I'm not going to waste a breath on them when I am too busy fixing all of the shit they've been breaking.
Yeah, sure. I'm not asking you to. I'm asking you to shut the fuck up while other people try to do good. You don't need to tell them they aren't allowed in joining us to fix things, or to work to get them on side. You just need to sit down and not say anything. You seem to have plenty of time to waste telling them they won't be accepted, which can't work to do good.
They are allowed to join in and fix things. They shouldn't do it for an attaboy, though. You talk about the information that they've been given as though they only have the one source. Willfully ingesting poison is suicide. They keep going back to the same fear mongering news sources that spout the same shit. Why? Because fear and hatred feel so fucking good. Oh, god. Like an orgasm for the soul. I'm persecuted, but look at me, I'm still standing. So, yeah, I'll shut the fuck up. This will be my last message. But don't make it like these fucks are the victims. They are the ones doing it to themselves. Go read a Reuters article. Check out NPR. Give APNews a glance. OAN and Joe Rogan are fucking toxins. They have all the tools at their disposal, but they refuse to use them.
When did I make it out like they were the victims? I pretty clearly said they aren't I think. I said it's more useful to turn them into allies if possible rather than ensure they remain enemies.
I agree their news sources are toxic, but also like you said it's addicting. I think we should try to assist addicts of all kinds, because it isn't necessarily their faults, and even if it is fighting them doesn't help. It only causes more harm. It's better to help them get to a better place where they can be made to do good.
...you are a detriment to this species, and your role has to be minimized.
I'm not going to advocate for taking away the rights of people I don't agree with...
Lmao which is it?
These people have a right to vote and live in the same society as you. What the fuck is your solution? Disenfranchisement? Balkanization? Ghettos?
It's hilarious because you could swap out a few talking points and the hillbilly voter would say the exact same thing
What a fucked up view of the world. Its not about them being your "friends", it's not about trusting them.
It's about reaching out to your fellow man, educating as much as you can, focusing on their actual grievances (no matter how much propaganda they parrot) and convincing them that we can build a better future. Maybe that enthusiasm only lasts for one vote, maybe not. Winning support isn't automatic, especially with the full weight of a propaganda machine purpose-built to crush critical thinking.
If you don't want to even try to overcome the systemic suppression of progressive politics then why are you even here? Take your own advice and suffer in silence.
We didn’t defeat the Nazis the first time with amnesty, conversation, and kindness.
We defeated them by stabbing them, shooting them, and fire bombing their cities.
We will have to do it again.
Violence isn't the answer
History book: about that...
I think the point is really to give amnesty and try to move on. This idea breaks down and apart the team mentality. It allows people to unite. But by all means keep antagonizing people and see how they dig in their heels.
How many times do I forgive the person who keeps kicking me in the face?
Just once more, bro, trust me bro I'll do right this time bro, c'mon, just once more. I'm kinda tired of always having to be the bigger person for this. Let's let the right be the bigger person for once.
That’s how we got the Nazis to stop the first time around: we sat down with them over a cup of tea and expressed our unity with them.
Oh no, wait, that’s not how we defeated Fascism, at all.
Charlie Brown and the football gag.
Day after day.
Year after year.
There are always people on the left that think this is the time things will be different. They've been yanking it away at the last moment since before the civil war.
It's time to stop being a Charlie Brown.
They’re not a monolith. Political ideologies gain and lose members every day.
The kid who kicked the ball over the fence today is never exactly the same one from last time, and sometimes the last kid is the volunteer who fetches the ball.
lol. Keep telling yourself that. I'll keep seeing the same news stories about the same right wing politicians trying to take the rights away from the same people while spouting the same lies. Then, I'll hear the same family members and old high school acquaintances repeating it all as though it were the literal gospel. The only time the conservative kid is volunteering to go get the ball is when they think that a minority might go get it instead.
I’m saying individual people can change. They can learn and grow.
You can stay mad at the conservatives of today, but you must let them “defect” when they’ve matured enough to do so.
Otherwise there’s no point to any of this.
I don't want defectors. I can't rely on defectors. They've had years--decades--to get their shit together, and they have chosen this path against better moral judgment. They are not welcome. I do not want them. As I said in another thread in this, I'm done with second chances, because their are on their hundredth and show no signs of self-correction. The straggler that jumps sides is worthless to me, because I can believe that they will do it again when it is convenient. At least the die-hards have conviction, even if it's wrong.
They've had years--decades--to get their shit together
Maybe you have had decades. Plenty of people just turned 18 and voted for the first time this year. As an above commenter pointed out, “conservatives” aren’t a monolith. They’re individual people, of all ages and backgrounds.
You’re not going to win by trying to convince a politician to change parties. Instead, you focus on the individual voters who put those politicians in office. And seeing “fuck em, they can stay conservative” rhetoric like yours doesn’t really help win hearts or minds.
Are you telling me that you can be old enough to vote, but not old enough to understand the moral implications of your actions? Maybe they aren't a monolith, but they also aren't a microcosm. They don't exist outside of the larger reality and then are suddenly thrust into it when they have a change of heart. As someone who grew up in a racist family from central Florida, I know exactly what it means to leave all that behind to be a better person. It doesn't start when it's convenient. It starts when you realize it won't be, because it starts with realization. The realization that you aren't doing the right thing. The realization that your actions affect others. The realization that a lot of the things you've known your whole life have been wrong. We are a lot more connected now than we were when I was learning all of this. There is no excuse for ignorance. The truth is right there. They are free to come to that realization whenever they want, but they aren't going to make any friends if they sit on their hands and wait for someone to carry them out of the hole. If they voted, they knew what they were voting for, and I won't accept any other made up reality to help them justify their actions.
But don’t you see? Some conservatives haven’t even been alive for decades. Some don’t even truly understand why they were handed that banner in the first place.
I’m not saying there shouldn’t be accountability. I have friends and relatives I’ve had to place in various stages of social probation due to their politics, but for each I’ve had to consider what redemption and rehabilitation would look like. If there is in fact no redemption for any of them, where would I draw that indelible line?
Though I’ve not voted Republican, I’ve often been wrong in my life about many things, so I’m certain I would need to include myself in that group or irredeemables. Honestly, who would survive the culling of those who’ve been wrong? Would you?
Where do you draw the line? Let's start at telling others what they can do with their bodies. Let's start at denying US Citizens the right to be in the country. Shit, pick something off of the Project 2025 list and draw that line.
I've been wrong about things in my life, too. For instance, I ordered Taco Bell a few days ago and it wasn't great. I didn't suddenly feel like abolishing gay rights, though. I'm being glib. It's OK to be wrong. You have to admit it, and then SPEND THE REST OF YOUR LIFE REPAIRING THE DAMAGE YOU'VE DONE. All this "uwu, sowwy" bullshit that comes out of the mouths of the "reformed" is worth less than what I left in the bowl after the Taco Bell. Actions are all I care about. Fix your mistake, fuck your apology.
That is a viable path to redemption. In fact I think spending one’s life repairing damage done is only the minimum expectation.
Also to be clear, I’m talking about common voters, rank-and-file conservatives. Public figures on the other hand, especially those active in the current administration, must be imprisoned, and many of them for life, if only to demonstrate to the world the severity of their crimes against the republic and its people.