Chat @beehaw.org rosethornRangerTTV @beehaw.org 7mo ago

Why I think people should consider using different pronouns in different spaces

alt-text: [yellow text saying "different pronouns in different spaces" next to the queer anarchist flag and on a 2d digital art wooden background]

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I'm not sure of I understand it correctly. Would pronouns in this case carry the same value as titles do, or terms of endearment? Maybe a mix of both. Titles have the explicit aspect, but terms of endearment inform the kind of relation we have in an informal situation.

The practical use still escapes my imagination. Would you talk more about that?
- pronouns do have some overlap with those, yeah
  
  practical use for a lot of things comes after building the systems where it is available in the first place. I have seen it used to designate what kind of furry someone is, I am not in those communities much so I don't know the specifics but I imagine that can save time and confusion. One set of pronouns for those furry spaces, one for outside.
  
  I use it/its in spaces where I do not plan on engaging with people as individuals, like on youtube where I get hundreds of comments and I'm not going to bother reading usernames. Designating the kind of interaction I will carry out and what to expect there is a good use case.
  
  It is hard to find more examples as it is such a personal thing and not many people do it yet
  
  I use it/its in spaces where I do not plan on engaging with people as individuals
  
  I see your pronouns on Beehaw are it/its, can you clarify whether you intend on engaging with people as individuals and if not how that shapes how you treat them?
  
  I do not read usernames and take messages as they are without looking for additional context. This space is not a chat room and there is no reason to treat it as such. It is a forum.
  
  Beehaw may not be the right space for you if you're unable to consider context. Beehaw is explicitly a community, a safe space, and somewhere where context absolutely matters. We don't believe it's possible to have a healthy community where people don't see each other as complex humans. We talk about this, quite a bit in our docs, for example in the the doc titled Beehaw is a community we talk about how community is a necessary part of this platform and in the doc titled Beehaw, Lemmy, and A Vision of the Fediverse we talk about how we want to be more like a village than we do a train station (and link to a fantastic article about this) and that's a direct reflection of the importance of social ties and connections to running a healthy community.
  
  I'm certainly not saying that you should leave, but I am typing all of this up because I need you to understand what our values are around here. Some of your content and your interactions have already been reported by multiple people - I mention this because I think it's a reflection of your attitude towards your purpose here and how you are interacting with the space. I've advised others to hold on taking moderator actions because I know adapting to and interfacing with a community and that this process can often be bumpy- we wish to give people good faith when it is deserved, but that is predicated on a willingness to engage in good faith with the community. If that is not how you wish to interact with social media, that is your decision and we will respect it, but this is not a place where we allow that kind of behavior.
  
  I never said anything about not seeing people as complex humans? I'm confused
  
  It's hard to engage with such short replies. What parts confuse you? What do you need more guidance on? Is there anything else that is unclear about my response and how we value community around here?
  
  deeper context involves like, reading the last 10 posts someone made to get an idea of who they are before responding, is that expected here? I am not understanding what you want from me
  
  I am not understanding what you want from me
  
  i think the basic confusion people are having is that, when you phrase it like "I use it/its in spaces where I do not plan on engaging with people as individuals" and "This space is not a chat room and there is no reason to treat it as such. It is a forum.", how that comes off to some people is you are kind of treating this place like a dumping ground for what you want to talk about and then ignoring other people jumping off of your posts. that may or may not be what you intend to do; so that's why people are trying to clarify the intent of your posts.
  
  i mean i did mention replying to comments though, so idk how they could assume that i was planning on ignoring them?
  
  idk it feels like bad faith assumptions
  
  like people keep saying im not going to use peoples pronouns when i didnt say anything about that?
  
  Because you said that you use it/its when you are in a forum where you don't plan on interacting as an individual, and I think they took that to mean you will use it/its when addressing others.
  
  Please, don't feel like we are piling on you. I personally would say you came as a positive disruption, but making sure this is a safe space is a big priority and that means even discussions filled with good intentions have to be careful. You should check tildes for comparison.
  
  Now about forums and chat rooms. Chat rooms never felt really personal to me, but I could never socialize with a lot of people at the same time well. Forums, 20 years ago, were a space I inhabited frequently. Deeper context for me was knowing who I was talking to because I had read their posts and comments in the past. We engaged ideas, but we considered people as well. Of course, not every discussion was the same, with some more abstract than others.
  
  I have been seeing your posts for the past week. They feel very personal, but your approach feels detached, academic. Try being more conversational, asking questions and being interested. For instance: What brought you here? Why do you post? What do you expect to offer and get? Ideas, opinions, experiences? Educate people, get collaboration for your ideas, someone to challenge and strength them?
  
  I truly believe our mods want to be accepting, but their role is also to maintain peace by guiding and reminding we all of our philosophy.
  
  I'm autistic, I've been called "detached and academic" my whole life, if you are inclusive how about you try including how I like to communicate instead of treating my existence like a problem to be fixed
  
  what makes you think attacking me how I interact makes me want to interact more closely?
  
  That's on me, I'm sorry. I realized the implications of my words, but failed to choose better ones. I have no problem with your style or tone. As I said, I feel your posts are personal and passionate.
  
  Let's try again. Context is important. I believe a lot in subjectivity, which can be confusing, others need facts and concrete examples, something I have learned to keep in mind when asked in the past. You tell me the best way to communicate with you.
  
  You said I attacked you and that I want to fix your existence. Those are not facts. I offended you and I might have hurt you, these are facts and I won't deny them, and I accept my responsibility for what I did.
  
  You see, I suffer from anxiety and depression. After two months in therapy, I feel comfortable to once again engage in the community and take risks. I just wanted to help (which doesn't excuse my mistakes), but reading this response would make me retreat again weeks ago. I would ask myself of I'm really this bad person you are interpreting me to be and if my contributions have any value, if I shouldn't just let other people more prepared to deal with it. I was also hurt by what you said.
  
  I'm a sensitive man, but my whole life people have called me robotic, unfeeling, reserved and the like. They didn't agree with the way I lived my life and thought trying to change me was a kindness. They are wrong. I've seen so many people suffer because the world refuses to allow them space that I try to make sure I'm accommodating. I believe everyone should grow in life by learning how to express themselves in their own unique ways.
  
  All this is me trying to reveal myself so I can be better understood. Because I think it's important. Because I think this community is important. And because I think you are important too. I learned a little bit about you today. I have learned other bits before and imagine I'll see more in the future. I asked some questions to help me with that as well, but you decide what you want to share.
  
  Makes video about the importance of pronouns. Refuses to read names or pronouns of the people that interact on the platform where they posted said video.
  
  Hmmm...
  
  I never said anything about pronouns
  
  The first word you submitted in this comment chain is literally "pronouns" and the topic of conversation is your stated choice of "it/its" pronouns and implication that you use them when not engaging with individuals, like on this board.
  
  I think they meant that they didn't say anything about not reading pronouns, just usernames.
  
  I think this person is just very very very bad at communicating details.
  
  That seems counter productive on Beehaw since a whole lot of folks around here put their pronouns in their usernames
  
  I use it/its in spaces where I do not plan on engaging with people as individuals, like on youtube where I get hundreds of comments and I’m not going to bother reading usernames
  
  Like @Vodulas I'm a little perplexed by this and hope you won't mind providing some more clarity
  
  I use it/its in spaces where I do not plan on engaging with people as individuals, like on youtube where I get hundreds of comments and I’m not going to bother reading usernames.
  
  I'm a little confused with this part. Are you referring to commenters using it/its or use it/its for yourself, but only on YouTube? I am a little put off by the second part, but I think I might be missing what you mean. Are you saying your replies on YouTube comments are going to be low effort interactions or that you aren't considering the individuality of YouTube commentors at all? If the latter, that might lead to some pretty terrible interactions there. Not that YouTube comments are known for being good interactions, but I have seen channels be able to cultivate pretty positive comment sections. Being dismissive of folks might perpetuate bad behaviors and cultivate some pretty terrible attitudes.
  
  I can see the benefit of setting expectations for interaction, but as someone that only uses one set of pronouns, I don't think different ones in different spaces would work for me. Some other signifier might though.
  
  I feel like I get what you're saying, and I think that drag queens are probably a better example, where they may use a different set of pronouns while in drag than out.

34 comments