Linux @lemmy.ml

2y ago

[Content Warning: Transphobia] From the very same people who tell us to "boycott Wayland"

166 comments

Lol, if we start excluding tech based on the inventors mental illnesses we are gonna end up bashing rocks together to make fire.
Edit: To be clear, I am not saying that being trans is a mental illness, only refuting that mental illness is not a reason to discard ones contributions. Apologies for any offence.
- let me tell you about the guy who invented bashing rocks together ...
- Pretty much lol. RMS went off the deep end so no GNU, Torvalds used to call people devil cunts so no Linux kernel. Theo probably did something to upset somebody lol. Maybe we can just use TempleOS and become computing hermits?
  
  Goes back further than that, Turing was gay, so anything building off his works must also be transitively gay.
  To add to the modern examples, Reiser murdered his wife, which really puts "devil cunts" into perspective :D
  
  Well, using the same metrics would mean TempleOS is waaaaay out of the question.
  
  Except all our hardware is made by major corporationw and there are no major corporations that work totally ethically and morally
  
  OpenBSD got a grant from the DoD, and then Theo posted his opinions of the post-9/11 US government, and they put a stop on the check before it even crossed the border. He pissed a lot of folks inside the Beltway off that day.
- .>calling being trans a mental illness
  incredibly sus ngl
  
  The original post called it a mental illness, i was following that. Apologies if I caused offence it was not intended.
  
  Being trans is not a mental illness but let's not encourage stigma around mental illness either.
  Cis people with mental illness are valid
  Trans people with mental illness are valid
  Mentally healthy trans people are valid
  Mentally healthy cis people are valid
- don't threaten me with a good time
- It's so easy to be called *phobic these days. It reminds of those relationships in which people feel like they are walking on eggshells.

sigh, people suck.
This is actually something that bugs me about GitHub - I'm a Professional Software Developer, and we use GitHub enterprise internally at work (don't @ me, we don't have the budget to run our own infrastructure, BitBucket is crap and the sales person at GitLab ghosted me on 3 consecutive calls that we set up to discuss our needs). I'm also in charge of a team, and actively encourage the team to contribute to open source - find a bug? Draw up reproduction steps, report it upstream, and Fridays after lunch are dedicated to getting those bugs fixed. One of these days one of my team is going to run across one of these assholes, and I'm going to have a proper HR incident on my hands because that is a hostile work environment. Doesn't matter that it is a member of the public being a dick, I've got an obligation to ensure that my staff have a workplace free of harassment, and I've got absolutely no recourse against this other than to say "cool, we don't contribute to this repo anymore".
- that is a hostile work environment
  I understand your frustration. I go to GitHub für code, not for some weirdo's Telegram channel. But, come on, do your employees have access to the internet? Does someone maintain a Facebook page on the clock? Is Google allowed? Reasonable people can distinguish between workplace and internet hate.
  
  Where I live at least, there is a difference because they are performing a task that they are being directed to perform as part of their job, as opposed to just randomly stumbling across hate while browsing the internet - if I've directed one of my staff to "submit a PR to this repo and work with the maintainers to get it merged" and some asshole drops into the comments they are being forced to engage in that situation, and that is not ok.
  One case that I've heard of is a pizza delivery place that had to pay some serious compensation to a couple of their delivery people because they refused to stop accepting orders from someone who would be super abusive if their delivery person wasn't a white guy. Management knew what was happening, the drivers had complained and asked for a resolution, management had refused to do anything about it, so the business had to pay compensation.
- the sales person at GitLab ghosted me on 3 consecutive calls that we set up to discuss our needs).
  I'm guessing they looked at your company and decided you weren't worth enough to them.
  We found Gitlab's pricing to be, frankly, ridiculous for the number of seats we have. Shame, the product is nice, just the sales team and pricing structure blows goats.
- Rules around preventing a hostile work environment don't place an obligation on anyone to prevent it at all costs. It means that if an employee or - more relevantly here - a customer - is being hostile, then the workplace needs to make sure the employee or customer stops. But if you work in a call centre cold calling people, your company isn't going to get fined if you get an earful of abuse. (They might get fined for cold-calling depending on specifics :P) Same here.

Transphobia and such aside (which are shitty and unnecessary in their own right), how on earth can you realistically boycott Wayland when nearly every last Xorg dev has moved to Wayland permanently?
X11 is simply end of life, and there are no display server technologies or protocols that exist to challenge Wayland because no one cares enough to bother with the immesnse work it entails? At best you'll be stuck on a legacy distro for a few years until your display drivers become too out of date for whatever apps you use.
- I don't really understand why people hate so much on transsexuality these days. Calling them a 'scourge' and 'mentally ill". What BS. Trans people are not hurting anyone. They just want to be their true self.
  One of the arguments often used (also here) is that they are trying to force other people to be trans (in this case the poster says "they think everyone should get puberty blockers"). Which is complete BS, I have never met a trans person that wanted everyone else to be trans too.
  It seems to be a big pet peeve of the extreme-right these days. I just don't understand why.
  
  They thrive of hating the weaker groups in society. If you want some morbid fun, try asking one of those what they should do with trans people if the had the power...
  
  If they had to get mad at reality, there’d be a lot less to be mad about. Being mad about made-up BS is a way for them to have their cake and eat it too. It’s boogeymen all the way down.
  
  They want everyone to be cis, so obviously everyone else wants people to be in their groups too!
  
  Those in power hate losing control. That's why bodily autonomy, sexual freedom, critical thinking, accurate history, and religious diversity are all their go-to boogymen.
  Trans folk are just one of the more recent groups to be targeted.
  I've known four out trans people. One was a piece of shit. The other three turned out to be amazing and empathetic people who all made my life better just by knowing them.
  It turns out, when you deal with people being entitled jerks to you all day, that tends to make you a better person. Forged in fire and all that.
  
  The main reason is that they try to control what people think and how they feel. They don't understand that just because they want to be seen and treated a certain way doesn't mean everyone else needs to accommodate them.
  If you believe men can't be women (and vice-versa), that's fine. If you believe they can, that's fine too.
  If you believe your view is an abject fact and there should be no discussion, then that's not fine. Unfortunately, a lot of people fall into the last category where they hear something that challenges their beliefs and immediately want to censor it. All that does is create enemies by telling people they can't discuss their views.
  It's an effective tactic, on both sides.

What a charming person, I would love to run him over with a steamroller. ::: spoiler spoiler
:::

I've filed a report to GitHub on this guy, I assume you did the same but ugh, people suck.
- binex-dsk is now shadowbanned on GitHub

You want give some context here? We don't even know who is speaking in these screenshots, and to what end. Why would this even be a conversation?
- Seems like some open source dev that responds to the "boycott wayland gist" and is against wayland.
  
  Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was
  
  It's like the systemd argument all over again. SIGH

I remember back when I thought all FOSS was part of the FSF, and that itself was formed of hippie liberal progressives. Had a rude awakening when I found about the MIT vs GPL rift, and then another on HN when I realised half the people in software were just there to make money.
- I had a period where I didn't really understand the GPL or what it was trying to do. All I knew is that it was ""viral"" (whatever the hell that meant!) and that, supposedly, trying to use it would forever bind you and your creation to who knows what unforeseen legal horrors. I mean, look how long it is! It's frightening! I wanted absolutely nothing to do with it at first.
  Then I got a clue and actually read it. It's quite straightforward. For almost all serves and purposes it's basically just MIT plus copyleft. All the legal density is just an effort to squash every conceivable loophole to the copyleft directive. I'm no longer afraid of it, I think it's pretty cool.
  The thing I want to know now is why so many projects think their shit don't stink and that they need to pollute the FOSS ecosystem with their own stupid permissive license that is functionally identical to the MIT license.
  
  Could be they like the idea of being in control of the license or something like that
- So like... and hear me out, software has just changed over time. Way more people use and develop it now, so it kind of makes sense that it would revolve around what most people are interested in. That's not really hippie liberal progressive stuff. I'm in it for that. I'm all about the GPL. But while we are a relative minority, it's not like our absolute numbers have dropped or even stagnated.
  I'd say we're growing at a steady pace. I think it happens with pretty much all new forms of art. Look at video games, movies, music, etc.
  
  My simple worldview: The Linux kernel is a good thing. A community driven project that betters the world by putting control into the power of the people, written by the goodwill of developers in their free time, and later, reluctantly by big corps who saw it as a threat too big to ignore.
  To my naive self, these were all sure signs that the world was moving progressively to the side of the economic left, born out of a need for a common world computing infrastructure/kernel. Nice people doing nice things for other people. Sharing/caring, etc. etc. I genuinely assumed a strong social left movement dominated computer science.
  Again, I was shocked by how many people just wanted to use it to found their startups, not share their code, or not contribute anything back to the frameworks that empowered them.

[Completely unrelated to the content] How the heck is this post managing to crash two out of my three lemmy clients?
- It's probably Wayland
  
  Evil Wayland is making their app crash
- Maybe they don't support multiple images at once?
  Make sure to report it 🤠
- same for me
  
  Jerboah works fine. Really after trying around its the best

Unsurprising. I've seen a fair amount of people in the Linux community like this.
It's also quite hilarious to see them frothing at the mouth so much over Gnome getting some money to aid in accessibility improvements lol. Can't be having the less abled using computers now, can we?
- Wait until FOSS nerds learn that the NSA and DoD are some of the top upstream contributors to FOSS projects.

tl;dr?
- Someone is mad that GNOME got a 1 000 000 € grant from the government and is blaming trans people

Wayland fixes VRR, mixed refresh rate display setups, screen tearing, X11 security bugs AND makes bigots mad? Sign me up! :-)
- @Krause @IverCoder You need to go back

Sorry for the Windows emojis lol, I'm on a computer shop as I post this on lunch break
- I would never have known if you hadn't told me. XD

I dont understand, give context, who is binex-dsk and why should I care?

I'm actually pro LGTB and hate Wayland. Don't make us all look as conservative scumbags. Some of use just hate Red Hat (IBM) because of their big corp nature.
- Why do you hate wayland?
  
  Careful you don't come off as a sealion.
  
  Though this is a thread about Wayland so eh.
  
  Damn, imagine having to answer this question every time you say you don't like something.
  Something tells me you don't ask this when people say they hate X.
- So do you not use linux then?
  
  I have to, the alternative is Windows, but I've also been exploring OpenBSD.

I dream of a future when people are not hostile to change.

Ah, the James Damore archetype of an engineer. I bet they get wet dreams imagining themselves as the Howard Roark of programming (and just as delusional).

Can we please stop making anything about how people feel about their selves?

I only read the first comment and the use of a slur and deep transphobic talking points made me stop reading the rest.
As a trans woman myself... thanks for all this non transphobia in this comment thread <333

Holy shit that is bad. I don't use wayland, but that's only because it freezes randomly on my 1650. (It's probably bc it's on an optimus laptop). I hope this person gets their github account banned.
- I have a friend with a 1650 that got his issues fixed out of the box, when he switched to Nobara. Not Optimus, so YMMV.
  
  I use Nobara on that laptop already. It's a great distro.

It is not nice to generalize.

He has a point, but it's not really limited to trans people.
Mental illness in general seems to be revered among this generation, for some reason. I had to make some decisions about what sexes to include in my app, and I just went with 'male, female, and other.' I know that's going to piss some people off, but they can just deal with it.
The amount of additional work required to add and maintain a list of genders just isn't worth it. Thankfully this is mostly an issue in Western culture, and my app is worldwide.
People with an agenda expect you to bend over backwards to support that agenda because they care more about their agenda than what you're actually doing.
- Nobody will get upset about those 3 options. People might get pissed though at you being a dick about it and yelling about mental illnesses.
  But its a nice excuse to be a bigot and then when people call you out, just act like its about the options in your application.
  
  Who is yelling/being a dick? I'm talking about "people with an agenda expecting you to bend over backwards to support that agenda because they care more about their agenda than what you’re actually doing." There are people with mental illness who suffer genuine duress when others don't "bend over backwards to support their agenda."
  On the other side of the spectrum, you'll have people getting mad I even include an 'other' option at all. Why? Because it goes against their agenda. They don't actually care about what I'm doing. They want to use it as a prop to support their ideals.
- You don't need to maintain a list. Either don't have it at all or make it a free form text input.
  
  Nah, that won't work because people are exposed to other users based on their preferences.
  They would need to match preferences exactly, which I could allow them to specify but I think it would overcomplicate things without much benefit.

If you're against Wayland, you are against peace freedom and democracy !! Also probably anti-Semite communist antilgbt brexiter , oh and racist of course !!
- this except communism is cool and based actually

166 comments