1y ago

System76 values and ethics (Opinion)

Please don't flame me too bad, I understand that although privacy and libre software are important to many in the Linux community, my opinions may be outside the scope of consideration for some and I respect that.

Personally, conscientious consumerism and privacy are some of the primary reasons I use Linux. I prefer community>private business>corporate when I am choosing products and services.

-System76

About 8 years ago I purchased a laptop from System76, the customer service was incredible and the machine exceeded my expectations in build quality and performance.

Recently I've been in the market for a smaller machine, like a Thinkpad X1, StarBook 14 or System76 Lemur.

Last week, when I visited the System76 website they used Plausible's open source analytics on the home page (which is a great alternative to Google's proprietary hardware fingerprinting algorithm), but once I added the laptop to my cart to checkout, I noticed the third-party trackers, apis.google and ajax.googleapis load on the webpage. Google's reCAPTCHA was also required to complete the purchase. Hell, even Discord has switched to hCaptcha at this point citing their laughable "Gamer Privacy First" policy.

IMHO, I find it hypocritical that System76 does so much great work disabling Intel's IME and contributing to coreboot, but chooses to embed proprietary tracking software on their website when open source alternatives are readily available.

Reaching out to System 76

After completing 14 reCAPTCHA's I was finally able to get a dialogue with Stetson at System 76. He said that "System 76 takes user data privacy and security extremely seriously, but they would continue to use Google services." His recommended solution was placing the order over the phone if I wasn't comfortable having third-party tracking during checkout.

This is not a solution for me because I don't want to do business with a company that monetizes user data for profit. In my experience, companies that monetize data (Alphabet, Meta, etc..) offer web services cheaper than competitors that don't, in exchange for access to user data. So, if you're getting a commercial service cheaper from a company that sells your user's data, you're also profiting from the sale by paying a lower premium for those services.

Personally, I do not think you're taking user privacy "extremely" seriously if you're running third party trackers and choosing reCAPTCHA (not a privacy respecting service) over hCaptcha on your website.

I really like System 76 and I want to support them with my next purchase, but presently I feel like they are saying one thing and doing another and choosing privacy respecting libre software some of the time when it suits their marketing, but proprietary anti-consumer tracking services when it's more profitable.

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73 comments

There's still a business, and they need to be profitable, so they're doing things a business does to stay profitable. But they've stayed very true to their philosophy.
Is the use of these APIs during the checkout process enough to make you go to a different company? What company would you go to that doesn't use any trackers?
- Yes, as I stated in the beginning of my post, personally I value privacy and ethical business practices and imo, if you sell hardware, make money on hardware while not additionally monetizing your customer's data through discounted web services. So the fact that they use services monetizing user as a way to increase profit margins is enough to make me choose another company. The only company I know of that sells a Linux Laptop not partaking in this sort of thing is Purism and they have very little selection. I'm open to other suggestions if someone knows of another company?
  
  You might also consider the saying "perfect is the enemy of good". If you can find something perfect, that's great, but if not... Don't go with the worst option.
  
  They themselves are almost certainly not getting paid for the user data. Rather they might use Google analytics and such to know who the target audience for their products is. So they could pay for better ads.
  
  They're using Stripe, and they require it if you have any sort of carding attack, or other fraud attempts. They'll disable your account otherwise. And, this isn't just Stripe, I've encountered it with all payment providers I've implemented.
  Ecommerce pretty much requires it these days, and yes, most gateways require Google's as it's the "industry standard" at the moment.
  
  Purism also requires Google services because of the payment processor they use.
  
  System76 does not make any profit from use of Google's reCAPTCHA service. You can't be seriously trying to insinuate that. You keep mentioning Purism, so are you actually a Purism customer, or paid by Purism? Very sketchy comments.
  
  I'm a System 76 customer, as I stated in the initial post I made, which you apparently didn't even take the time to read. Receiving Google services at a discount in exchange for access to System 76 user data is profiting from using Google's discounted reCAPTCHA, versus competitor pricing models. Don't think linking Google's privacy policy that promises not to track your users is of any relevance, Google is currently under more litigation for violating their own privacy policies than any other company in Tech (research the case with Epic Games), not to mention the DoJ's anti-trust lawsuit currently underway.
  https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/03/judge-finds-google-destroyed-evidence-and-repeatedly-gave-false-info-to-court/
  https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-google-monopolizing-digital-advertising-technologies
  Have you been to business school in the last decade Sir? Surveillance Capitalism is a mandatory subject in the contemporary world and I believe you're pretending that isn't Google's primary revenue stream. Please have a look at he link below expanding on Alphabet Inc's business model.
  https://telegra.ph/How-Big-Tech-Revenue-and-Profit-Breaks-Down-by-Company-12-09
  
  Once again, you are making baseless accusations without evidence. I've already corrected you on these misconceptions multiple times here, yet you insist to repeat them. So whether you trust me or not, who are you getting this misinformation from, and where does it state that System76 is giving access to user data to Google, or receiving any form of discounts?
  Yet again, System76 does not give user data to Google, nor does it get any profit or discounts from Google for using a captcha service. We use Plausible instead of Google Analytics. Google's captcha service is a captcha service, not a big data analytics platform directly feeding "Big Brother". It is recommended by our payment processor, and is useful to eliminate attempted scams and spam.
  The intent behind your comments here going far off at a tangent is very questionable. You're grasping for straws where there are none. Hence my questioning about your intentions.
  
  I appreciate your response Michael, but I don't think it's a misconception that Google monetizes user data and any service they provide is a means to that end. If the payment provider System 76 uses promotes a non-privacy preserving service, then why choose that payment provider?
  
  This is not what you are claiming. You stated that System76 is profiting from selling user data to Google. This is the misconception.
  
  Are you implying that Google's primary business model is something other than the collection and sale of people's personal data? Google services are discounted or "free" because they monetize user data through tools like their reCAPTCHA hardware fingerprinting technology deployed on System 76's website. My point is that System 76 claim's to be "extremely concerned with user privacy", but chooses a payment processor dependent on the Internet's least privacy preserving corporation and that is a contradiction of your "proclaimed" values.
  Btw, I recently learned that Purism also deploys Google scripts with their payment processor and I wasted my money on a Librem 5 a year ago. It has the worst touchscreen and battery life of any device I own, so let me assure you I'm no shill for that company. I honestly buy my hardware from System 76 every chance I get, so when I feel they're being disingenuous about their values (privacy), I take it personal, since I'm typing this on a Galago Pro.
  I'll probably relent and order the Lemur over the phone as Stetson suggested. I'm critical of System 76 because I want them to succeed and I think they should follow other companies (Valve, Discord, etc...) abandoning Google as their ship sinks because of shareholder greed.
  https://www.pcmag.com/news/steam-ditches-google-analytics-over-customer-privacy-concerns
  I'm sure a lot of people at System 76, like myself started using Google in the 90s and had an invitation only Gmail account, becoming enchanted with the company 20 years ago. Unfortunately, after their 2004 IPO, the shareholder's have clamored for the increasingly relentless collection and sale of user data to advertisers and even government tax and intelligence agencies to the point that Alphabet has lost much of it's goodwill in the tech community and many are now suspicious of Google like myself.
  I made my post not to bash System 76, but to point out what I believe is a strategic error continuing to have Google as a business partner when payment processor's like Stripe will allow hCaptcha's (privacy preserving service) instead.
  
  You keep talking over me without reading what I say. System76 does not use Google Analytics, so this is irrelevant. hCaptcha is not the privacy win that you think it is, either. It's trading Google for Cloudflare and Apple. You claimed System76 profits from selling user data to Google. It does not. Nobody is disputing that Google profits from data collection. That was never up for debate.

73 comments