Calls for defederation - Is the idea of the open marketplace of ideas outdated?

Lately I see a lot of calls do have specific instances defederated for a particular subset of reasons:

Don't like their content
Dont like their political leaning
Dont like their free speech approach
General feeling of being offended
I want a safe space!
This instance if hurting vulnerable people

I personally find each and every one of these arguments invalid. Everybody has the right to live in an echo chamber, but mandating it for everyone else is something that goes a bit too far.

Has humanity really developed into a situation where words and thoughts are more hurtful than sticks and stones?

Edit: Original context https://slrpnk.net/post/554148

Controversial topic, feel free to discuss!

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143 comments

Has humanity really developed into a situation where words and thoughts are more hurtful than sticks and stones?
What a ridiculous question. "Is a stabbing really more hurtful than a gunshot?"
They're both hurtful!
We can't stop physical abuse in the real world by defederating with a hateful instance, but we can stop the hate speech from having an audience here.
Hateful content is routinely disguised as memes, "just asking questions", "just a joke", etc. Humans are human, and many of us are suggestible. There's a reason Holocaust denial is literally illegal in Germany. If people hear something often enough, from enough people, it doesn't matter what it is. They'll start to wonder if it's true.
It's super easy to teach a child to hate, for instance. They believe everything they hear, and it's very human to hate things and certain people. This doesn't just go away when they hit the legal age to have an account here. Reddit allows 13 year olds to have an account. (Or is that Facebook? Whichever.) I don't know what the official policy is of this instance or Lemmy in general, but the fewer 13 year olds we have reading literal hate speech, the better. It's a black hole that it's easy to get sucked into.
If every "good" instance blocks the hateful ones, then no one will see their content unless they go out of their way to sign up for that specific instance. That's a good thing. It keeps the hate locked away where it's hard to stumble into.
Now, what counts as hate? Whatever the admin decides. If the admin chooses to delegate that decision to the users, it's still the admin choosing to do that. If you don't like that, find a different instance.
Fuck hate. Fuck Nazis. Fuck the alt-right. Defederate them.
- That's the beauty of the fediverse - you can join an instance that agrees with you (or host your own).
  Some want a haven where everything is allowed, some would not like to see certain content. And both are serviced with a decentralised model.
- I'm really starting to like the term 'defederate'...it's so much more descriptive and applicable than 'censorship' or 'cancelling'. Me intentionally choosing not associate with you isn't the same as me actively trying prevent you from speaking. Me choosing a group that is choosing not to associate with you doesn't infringe on your rights in the slightest. You whining about the fact that no one wants to listen to you is so far away from censorship that it's almost humorous to listen to folks trying to shoe-horn it into the conversation.
  By 'you', I obviously (I hope) mean the people whining about being 'defederated', not the commenter I'm replying to.
- What a ridiculous question. "Is a stabbing really more hurtful than a gunshot?" They're both hurtful!
  Hyperbolic. Nobody is being shot, people feel offended for more or less valid reasons.
  Hateful content is routinely disguised as memes, "just asking questions", "just a joke", etc
  So? The burden of proof that this is hate is on you. Apart from this: Even if it was hateful, it's not unlawful per se. If it becomes unlawful that's a whole other topic.
  It's super easy to teach a child to hate, for instance.
  Yes, children are children, they're supposed to be stupid. They will hate another kid because it wears glasses, is fat, nerdy or because it's Tuesday. You won't change that, you just add another layer why certain kids will hate others. Hate because of hate. Doesn't sound like a good plan.
  If every "good" instance blocks the hateful ones, then no one will see their content unless they go out of their way to sign up for that specific instance. That's a good thing. It keeps the hate locked away where it's hard to stumble into.
  Ah the hear no even, see no evil, speak no evil approach. Yeah that has always worked out pretty well, ask the French about Zemmour and Le Pen, the Germans about the AFD and so on.
  Now, what counts as hate? Whatever the admin decides. If the admin chooses to delegate that decision to the users, it's still the admin choosing to do that. If you don't like that, find a different instance.
  Ah there it is, the leftist authoritarian. Whatever Big Brother decides is good for me.
  Fuck hate. Fuck Nazis. Fuck the alt-right. Defederate them.
  Have a look at the state at which the right wing parties are re-emerging in Europe, look at Reassemblement National, Vox, AFD, etc etc.
  That is only possible because people like you think that containment and oppression of dissenting discourse and opinion is a good thing. You're the new Neville Chamberlain and I fear what the result of this new cowardice will be.
  
  Ah there it is, the leftist authoritarian. Whatever Big Brother decides is good for me.
  🤦‍♂️
  Dear Lord, you are just grasping here. Go fight your straw man somewhere else. Each instance is run as a charity. The admin makes the rules. If you don't like the rules, leave. If I don't like the rules, I'll leave. Take your techno-libertarian, infinite free speech bullshit somewhere else. Make your own instance where you are the benevolent dictator where your only rule is "Absolute freedom of speech for all". Fucking christ...
  
  I never said anything against "the admin makes the rules." This is about users calling for defederation because "someone offended me on the internet."
  Looks like you're exactly that kind of person and as you've proven yourself you're absolutely incapable of engaging in a civil discussion. Feel free to leave... or participate, but if you do, people will disagree with you, no matter if that hurts your precious feelings or not.
  
  I never said anything against "the admin makes the rules."
  The conversation:
  "The admin makes the rules"
  "You leftist authoritarian!"
  "🤦‍♂️"
  "I never said anything against 'the admin makes the rules'"
  It's all there, black and white. Defederation is just another admin rule.
  You think you're being civil and you say shit like "There is it" and labeling me with a pejorative political affiliation on the basis of saying nothing more than "the admin makes the rules". I'm calling you out on your bullshit. That's not something you say in a civil conversation, and you know it. Don't apologize. Don't explain to me how it's civil. Just stop talking.
  
  When you call for an authority to get the bad offense banned from your view it's a clear call for an authority to fix your life, because you're not able to. This has nothing to do with an admin (team) having transparent rules about what they do or don't allow on an instance.
  On a different topic: Civil discussion and disagreement is encouraged, you're trying to insult and disparage which is something I as moderator will not allow here. So either you follow the rules or I'll have to start moderating your contributions here.
  
  Ban me, hypocrite
  
  Do we have a lemmy drama space yet to discuss hilarious goings-on like the 'pro-free-speech' controversial topics mod banning the first person to pushback against their name-calling in the very first thread on their new community?
  
  Done.
  
  Transparency report: User banned for 14 days to cool down.
  
  Banning your own discussion partners on a community IN YOUR OWN THREAD for controversial opinions doesn't exactly inspire to contribute.
  
  You're banning someone from a community called "Controversial" where the rules state, "This is not a safe place" and "Challenge others opinions and be challenged on your own" because you disagree with them. In a post where you claim that defederating is censorship.
  I don't know if you're trolling with this post or not but that is way too funny!
  
  A 14 days cooldown is not a permanent ban.
  Civil discussion is the base of this community, not ad hominems or intents to derail die discussion.
  Moderation is a necessary evil in order to have some basic rules that facilitate free speech. I'm not advocating for pure anarchy.
  Look up the modlog to check if what I said is true.

143 comments