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AgentGoldfish @lemmy.world

How the beehaw defederation affects us

ou might have seen that we've been defederated from beehaw.org. I think there's some necessary context to understand what this means to the users on this instance.

How federation works

The way federation works is that the community on beehaw.org is an organization of posts, and you're subscribed to it despite your account being on lemmy.world. Now someone posts on that community (created on beehaw.org), on which server is that post hosted?

It's hosted on both! It's hosted on any instance that has a subscriber. It's also hosted on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, etc. Every instance that has a subscriber is going to have a copy of this post. That's why if you host your own instance, you'll often get a ton of text data just in your own server.

And the copies all stay in sync with each other using ActivityPub. So you're reading the post that's host on lemmy.world, and someone with an account on beehaw.org is reading the same post on beehaw.org, and the posts are kept in sync via ActivityPub. Whenever someone posts to that community or comments on a post, that data is shared to all the versions across the fediverse, and these versions are kept in sync. So up until 5 hours ago, they were the same post!

"True"-ness

A key concept that will matter in the next section is the idea of a "true" version. Effectively, one version of these posts is the "true" version, that every other community reflects. The "true" version is the one hosted on the instance that hosts the community. So the "true" version of a beehaw.org community post is the one actually hosted on beehaw.org. We have a copy, but ours is only a copy. If you post to our copy, it updates the "true" version on beehaw.org, and then all the other instances look to the "true" version on beehaw to update themselves.

The same goes for communities hosted on lemmy.world or lemmy.ml. Defederation affects how information is shared between instances. If you keep track of where the "true" version is hosted, it becomes a lot easier to understand what is going on.

How defederation works

Now take that example post from earlier, the one on beehaw.org. The "true" version of the post is on beehaw.org but the post is still hosted on both instances (again, it has a copy hosted on all instances). Let's say someone with an account on beehaw.org comments on that post. That comment is going to be sent to every version of that post via ActivityPub, as the "true" version has been updated. That is, every version EXCEPT lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. So users on lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works won't get that comment, because we've been defederated from beehaw.org. If we write a comment, it will only be visible from accounts on lemmy.world, because we posted to a copy, but our copy is now out of sync with the "true" version. So we can appear to interact with the post, but those interactions are ONLY visible by other lemmy.world accounts, since our comments aren't send to other versions. As the "true" version is hosted on beehaw, and we no longer get beehaw updates due to defederation, we will not see comments from ANY other community on those posts (including from other defederated instances like sh.itjust.works).

The same goes for posting to beehaw communities. We can still do that. However, the "true" version of those communities are the ones on beehaw, so our posts will not be shared to other instances via ActivityPub. And all of this is true for Beehaw users with our communities. Beehaw users can continue to see and interact with Lemmy.world communities, but those interactions are only visible to other Beehaw users, since the "true" versions of the Lemmy.world communities (the ones sent to/synced with every other instance) is the Lemmy.world one.

Communities on other instances, for example lemmy.ml, are unaffected by this. Lemmy.world and beehaw.org users will still be able to interact with those communities, but posts/comments from lemmy.world users won't be visible to beehaw.org users, as defederation prevents our posts/comments from being sent to the version of these posts hosted on beehaw.org. However, as the "true" version is the one on the third instance, we can still see everything from beehaw.org users. So we see a more filled in version than the beehaw users.

Why can I still see posts/comments from beehaw users?

Until they defederated us, posts/comments were being sent to lemmy.world, so we can see everything from before defederation. After defederation, we are no longer receiving or sending updates. So there are now multiple versions of those posts.

Why can I still interact with beehaw communities?

This won't ever stop. You'll notice that all posts after defederation are only from lemmy.world users. You won't see posts/comments from ANY other instance (including instances that ) on beehaw.org communities.

Those communities will quickly suck for us, as we're only talking to other lemmy.world users. Your posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. I highly recommend just unsubscribing from those communities, since they're pretty pointless for us to be in right now.

Why do I still see comments from beehaw users on lemmy.world communities?

Again, comments from before defederation were still sent to us. After defederation, it will no longer be possible for beehaw users to interact with the "true" version of lemmy.world communities. Their posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. They also aren't getting updates from any other lemmy, as the "true" version of those communities is on our instance.

Why do I see posts/comments from beehaw users on communities outside lemmy.world and beehaw.org?

That's because the "true" version of those posts is outside beehaw. So we get updates from those posts. And lemmy.world didn't defederate beehaw, so posts/comments from beehaw users can still come to versions hosted on lemmy.world.

The reverse is not true. Because beehaw defederate lemmy.world, any post/comment from a lemmy.world users will NOT be sent to the beehaw version of the post.

This seems like it's worse for beehaw users than for us?

Yes. In my opinion, this is an extraordinarily dumb act by the beehaw instance owners. It's worse for beehaw users than for us, and will likely result in many beehaw users leaving that instance. They said in their post that this is a nuke, but I don't think they fully assessed the blast area. Based on their post, I don't think they fully understand what defederation does.

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648 comments

  • I feel like this is a bad decision under the current circumstances, but also this shows the problems when one instance holds too large a portion of the user base and why we want to decentralize in the first place.

    Defederation is a big decision that should not be taken lightly. You are effectively silencing an entire group of people from your group and when it’s a group as large as these two instances there is a lot of collateral damage.

    However, we need more instances that are as well run as Lemmy.world if we want to truly be decentralized but I guess that is easier said than done.

    I feel like the mods at bee haw are just putting a band aid on the problem because the “trolls” are going to keep coming as long as Lemmy is growing. They can just as easily come from any instance. Defederation is not a replacement for good moderation.

    Either way, I hope that as Lemmy matures we get more and more well run instances so we don’t have to rely on a small group of instances and hope they can get along.

    • Defederation is not a replacement for good moderation.

      EXACTLY! That's why this action annoys me so much. It would be like an admin on reddit using an admin action to moderate a subreddit.

    • My idea for communities of users who want small enclaves: have TWO instances

      • One community instance that has no users. Is federated only with the user instance.
      • One user instance that has no communities. Is federated to the broader Lemmy federation AND the community instance

      This allows you to have users that have their own space. Allows them to interact with all of Lemmy. Communities don't get co-mingled or have to deal with "true" communities, etc.

      • I'm wondering if a fundamental separation of users from content would be the best way to go. Apart from simplicity, I'm not sure I see any benefit to the current model of instances holding both our identities and the content we want to browse.

        • That's my thought. Performance and server management is also a problem. If communities get huge on a specific instance and the server starts lagging, it's the users on that instance that really pay the price. Having them separate would limit the damage. A lot of the best benefits of federation are had when one instance doesn't get dominant, which will naturally happen if one instance gets a good share of communities and new users will want to create their user there.

    • Defederation is not a replacement for good moderation.

      I don't think beehaw admins ever claimed anything like that. In fact they outright said this is a temporary solution due to the current lack of moderation tools and an overwhelming amount of new users.

648 comments