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  • You have become what you hate.

    • Well read on transmisogyny? How do you want me to point out to you that you're incorrect? Like, earnestly, what is the right way to point out to someone that they're being bigoted when they don't know they're being bigoted?

      I know more on this than you

      on a personal level- plenty of men hit on me and then when I speak in my non-passing voice to let them know I'm a lesbian react with disgust. Men who say they'd never be attracted to a trans woman have had no problem aggressively hitting on me

      On an academic level- I've read a lot of feminist works on misogyny, and works on how transmisogyny operates.

      You haven't done enough study on the topic to have an opinion that you should personally stand by.

      Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn't that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak?

      • I said nothing about forcing my preferences on you but you're working VERY hard to force your preferences on me.

        That says a LOT more about you than it does about me.

        • What do you mean by my preferences? I am annoyed when people spout bullshit that they don't understand is bullshit and then get defensive when you tell them they're wrong, stop playing the victim.

          • Could you possibly be any more egotistical? You are really full of yourself.

            I understand completely that I am a cis man and that my sexual preference is for cis women. Why are you trying to force your beliefs down my throat? What defect of personality is it that makes you think that you should decide what I'm allowed to like?

            I'm not being defensive. I don't give the first fuck what you think I should like. I'm just trying to help you to understand how utterly toxic you are.

            • Yeah, I'm the egotistical one, not the cis guy trying to explain why it isn't actually transmisogyny to a trans woman who has studied and experienced this specific form of transmisogyny.

              You aren't some static being where people attempting to change your mind about something you haven't investigated is some violation. If that is what it feels like to you maybe you need to do some self reflection, because what I am describing to you is literally just the process of learning.

              Edit: also men like you love to force your preference on me. Do you know how many times I've been cornered (because some men like to do that when hitting on someone) and had to be there for a man's significant emotional event after realizing he was attracted to a trans woman? This is me being proactive so some trans woman doesn't have to deal with your freak out if you end up hitting on a trans woman.

              • Are lesbians bad because they don't want to suck cocks or is it just me because I'm cis and interested in cis women?

                Yes, it is you who is egotistical because you believe that you should be able to dictate to me what I should like.

                • Hey MapleEngineer,

                  I've seen you around before and know you're acting in good faith, and I believe you're an ally, or at least a potential ally, to the trans community.

                  I'm chiming in here because I replied to OurToothbrush earlier to give her a cis-het male ally's perspective, and suggest that she might have more success with a less confrontational strategy.

                  She suggested I might have better luck explaining her objection to you, or at least that she would appreciate me trying to help you understand her point.

                  Both your comments are coming fast and furious so I'm trying to respond to your latest.

                  So here goes:

                  Your basic point was that you're exclusively interested in cis-women, and that this is a preference you have, everyone is entitled to preferences so what's the big deal. It doesn't mean you're not an ally.

                  Life is complex. Just as there's nobody that's purely "racially white" (race isn't real, but that's beside the point, or maybe it is the point....), there's nobody that's purely female or male. Obviously most people's bodies develop either testicles or ovaries not both, but: there is a sizable portion of the population where it's not so clear cut. Ultimately: Every person has mutations in their DNA that skew their body towards and away from what's considered masculine/feminine.

                  While sexual orientation towards masculine/feminine people doesn't seem to be strongly influenced by culture (ie I don't think you can raise a kid to be gay), what a person perceives to be masculine/feminine/trans IS strongly a product of their culture and conditioning.

                  Viewing sexuality and gender through the framework I laid out above and considering her experiences may help you understand why OurToothbrush sees transphobia where you see sexual preference.

                  OurToothbrush's experience seems to be that lots of 'cis-het-men' say they aren't attracted to trans-women, but are in fact attracted to trans-women like her. When they discover that she is a trans-woman they have very negative reactions. Since the (former) suitors were attracted to her until they guessed she was assigned male at birth, but before they had learned the status of her genitalia, how can she conclude anything other than transphobia? Do you see how their reaction is basically the same as your statement?

                  I pointed out to her that transphobia and homophobia are beaten into men/boys and if they have a negative reaction to learning that a women that they're attracted to was assigned male at birth, it doesn't mean they aren't allies, just that they haven't unlearned that phobic conditioning. It's a type of internalized latent transphobia that has infected me too. I don't dwell on it because as a person in a committed monogamous relationship for over half of my life, it is unlikely to matter, and I suspect it would be a monumental undertaking to unlearn. The effort is better spent healing rifts between allies.

                  Can you understand why when someone says "I'm exclusively interested in cis-women" a person with OurToothbrush's experiences might hear "trans-women are gross".

                  Tldr; I think I see where you're both coming from. We cis-het-men are notoriously fragile, especially when our allyship is questioned. I think it will be more effective for people trying to point out people's latent transphobia to take an educational/ collaborative tone at first, and it's something I'm going to try to do a better job of helping people understand.

                  Honestly, thank you two for having this spat so that I could map it out in my head better, I'm not sure I've done the best job typing it out though. You're both welcome to tell me to fuck off.

                  • Thanks for taking the time to write. I wrote in a different thread here that I do not find male bodies attractive and that I had never met a transfem whose body I found attractive. I am a big fan of a full, curvy female body. I am absolutely not interested in penises and I have no interest in masculine faces or bodies. Saying that I am exclisively interested in cis women is a good starting point. I'm not interested in the heroin chic supermodel look with no hips and chiseled faces. Scarlett Johansson and Anna Kendrick are both absolutely gorgeous. I like Scarlett Johansson's body but I don't like Anna Kendricks'. I find Jamie Clayton very pretty but I'm not sexually attracted to her body. I don't hate trans women and I don't fear trans women. My limited experience (friends with two transfems for over 50 years and one transmasc for over 10 years) and interactions with several trans coworkers and adjacent people has reinforced that I have no sexual attraction to any of the trans women I have encountered. I wouldn't react violently to a proposition from a trans woman any more than I would from a gay man. I would, and have several times said, "I'm flattered but I'm not interested." then I go on as though nothing had happened. I don't discount the idea that a trans woman with a feminine face, a curvy feminine body with wide hips, natural breasts, good mental health, and a great personality could catch my eye and end up in a relationship but I have never seen that combination in a transfem.

                    Labelling someone who is so obviously an ally a transphobe does not help the cause of understanding.

                    • Yes saying that you're exclusively attracted to cis women is an easy short hand.

                      I think OurToothbrush is frustrated with the erasure of transwomen that you fail to identify as trans.

                      I think when you said:

                      I had never met a transfem whose body I found attractive.

                      You don't actually know if you've ever found a trans-woman attractive because you don't know the birth details of every women you've ever found attractive. Some of them could be trans.

                      It's not something I was particularly cognizant of either before seeing OurToothbrush's reaction.

                      I think I would have trouble getting it up for a blow job from a smoking hot women after I learned she had a penis. I'm willing to concede that that is technically transphobic. I don't think it changes the fact that I am an ally of the trans rights movement.

                      Just say you're a cis-het male ally and I think everyone will know what you mean. It's too bad this has been sick an ugly experience, it's still a hell of a lot easier than gender dysphoria.

                      • Sorry for butting in, and I fully understand if I'm completely out of line here, but can you expand on this statement?

                        I think I would have trouble getting it up for a blow job from a smoking hot women after I learned she had a penis. I'm willing to concede that that is technically transphobic.

                        Is it phobic to not be attracted to every aspect of a person? Is it racists if fiery red hair is a turn off? Is it hateful to dislike piercings? Is it so bad to not be down bad for blue eyes?

                        I can see how less obvious trait could lead to a frustrating situation and an appartent change in opinion, like being turned off by a dorky laugh, or a tattoo, or violent behaviour, but is it somehow hateful to not be attracted to everything about someone?

                        I feel like telling people that something about themselves is inherently bad isn't any better. Maybe someone doesn't like the colour red because they just really hate Canadians, and perhaps they would be fine with red otherwise, but are they being hateful by buying a blue blanket? What about people who just like blue? It would be great if no one hated a colour because they hate the people represeted by a flag, but forcing everybody to buy red blankets doesn't help anything, you know?

                        I think the idea I'm circling here is that attractions aren't fair, and trying to make them fair is worse. Conflating that with transphobia seems ironic. Does that make sense?

                      • So this boils down to the proposition that there are trans women everywhere who are indistinguishable from cis women? Maybe.

                      • I think we need another word. Transphobic suggests fear or hate. I neither fear not rate trans people as I've made clear multiple times. If I'm not interested in having sex with men am I androphobic? I'm just not interested in trans people sexually. I'm transdisinterested, not transphobic.

                  • Another... (I was thinking in the shower.)

                    On the continuum from a raging, murderous transphobe to the perfect ally where is the point where you can label someone a transphobe?

                    I've already told you that I have had a pair of transfem friends for 50 years, a transmasc friend for 10 years, my kids have non-binary and trans friends who I treat with the same dignity and respect that I treat everyone else in my life is the simple fact that I'm interested in cis women enough to get me labelled a transphobe? What if I'm that raging, murderous transphobe but I have sex with trans women? Is being a transphobe like a scorecard, you can have a perfect score but a single wrong answer and you're a transphobe?

                    I'm not being an ass or trolling. I genuinely want to understand your perspective on these questions to inform further discussion.

                    I asked a longtime lesbian friend whose partner is a retired human rights lawyer who specialized in LGBTQ+ rights law about this conversation and the partner mentioned absolutism (which I mentioned in another part of this discussion.) I just wonder if that's what's going on here.

                    I'm off to a maker fair with my family today so I probably won't get back to this until late this evening. I hope you have a good day.

                    • Sorry that it has taken me a long time to respond, I've been at the cabin, away from my phone.

                      Yeah the problem is that because of the history of discrimination we don't have words for relatively harmless discriminatory tendencies. So if I were to say

                      I have racist tendencies

                      it sounds like I'm admitting to being a "capital R" racist, when what I mean is,

                      I was taught incorrect stereotypes by media as a child, and sometimes despite my best efforts to be egalitarian, these biases cause me to make bad judgements. I try to notice when this happens, to make sure I treat people fairly.

                      Yeah I'm not saying anyone is a jerk for having sexual interest only with feminine people with vaginas and boobs, I'm just saying that it's kinda trans-erasure (and therefore technically transphobic) to say

                      I'm exclusively attracted to cis-women

                      Because a person doesn't know the assigned birth sex of every woman they've ever been attracted to.

                      OurToothbrush was offended because she is a transwoman and attracts men that think they're exclusively attracted to cis-women. She's on the front line of transphobia, and searching for a partner puts her at a too real risk of being murdered by a transphobe.

                      Yeah it sounds like absolution is a relevant term. People like to think that there are only biological males and biological females and that's that. It's not that simple. People like to think that there are racists and non-racists and that's that. It's not that simple. People like to think that there are transphobes and non-transphobes and that's that. It's not that simple. To me, being an ally is is about supporting a community to defeat unfair discrimination. Imo supporting individuals with friendship isn't exactly the same but it's better than nothing.

                      • We all have lives. I sometimes remember that I was discussing something with someone weeks later.

                        In the end my trans friends, LGBTQ friends, my lesbian daughter, and my son and daughter's LGBTQ, non-binary, and trans friends and everyone who knows me knows that I'm not a transphobe. They know that I'm an ally. They know that they can count on me for support and that I will actively protect them.

                        Being labelled a transphobe by someone who doesn't know me and obviously has rather extreme views is less than meaningless to me. I engaged in the coversation to try to help her to understand my position and that labelling anyone who wasn't interested in having sex with her, no matter how much of an ally they really were, was counterproductive. I did my best. I'm going to keep doing my best to be an ally no matter how much people who demand thought perfection label me. That's just who I am.

                  • I've been chewing on this. I have a question. It's a bit of a thought experiment.

                    If you're a man (biological male) and I'm not at all interested in having sex with you and you decide to transition to a woman at what point along that transition am I a transphobe if I still don't want to have sex with you?

                • Are lesbians bad because they don’t want to suck cock

                  I know plenty of cis and trans lesbians who love to suck cock. Just not men's cocks.

                  And I am equally suspicious of lesbians who are like "trans men are an exception" because they generally either treat trans men like shit or realize they're bi but only interested in dating and fucking other queer folks.

                  Yes, it is you who is egotistical because you believe that you should be able to dictate to me what I should like.

                  Not dictating to you what you should like, pointing out that what you're saying doesn't actually make sense when it comes to interacting with women in real life and not just looking up porn categories.

                  • It's still not clear to me what defect of personality it is that makes you think that it's ok to question my preferences.

                    I'm tired of you trying to ram your beliefs down my throat.

                    • Yeah, I'm defective for having experienced your "preferences" in other men resulting in men being really scary to me upon those men being rejected, and wanting to explain to you that men making sweeping claims about attraction to trans women can put trans women in danger when reality doesn't match up so neatly.

                      Plus all the connection to stigma culture that reinforces transphobia but that is less acute.

                      • Yeah, I’m defective for having experienced your “preferences” in other men resulting in men being really scary to me upon being rejected, and wanting to explain to you that men making sweeping claims about attraction to trans women can put trans women in danger when reality doesn’t match up so neatly.

                        You have never experience, "my preferences" because we have never met. You're lumping me in with the men that you've had bad experiences with which is unfair. I am very much a friend to the LGBTQ+ community. I am perfectly comfortable to say, "I'm flattered but I'm not interested" and I have done so more than once. For me, that's the end of it. No drama. Given the very diverse community I run in (I wrote in another comment that, "my wife is bisexual, my sister is bisexual, my daughter is a lesbian, my son and daughter both have non-binary and trans friends who I regularly spend time with, I have gay friends and lesbian friends, I was a member of the wedding party at a same sex wedding, I am friends with a local transmasc, and I’ve had a pair of transfem friends for more than 50 years.") I find it very useful to be able to say, "Here is who I am and here is who I'm interested in." The people around me seem to appreciate that rather than resent it. Why would you want to pursue someone who said that they weren't interested in you? I don't try to talk lesbians into be interested in me, that would be the height of arrogance on my part.

                        Plus all the connection to stigma culture that reinforces transphobia but that is less acute.

                        I am not transphobic. Labelling anyone who doesn't agree with your world view as transphobic really devalues anything else you have to say. I like redheads. I like big butts. I like small boobs. That doesn't mean that I'm brunettephobic or blondephobic or small bottom or big boob phobic.

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