There is a spectre haunting the lemmyverse
It’s lemmygrad, we’re the spectre. I’d bet at least half of the other instances out there block us, there’s only like 300 dedicated users on this instance, and they still can’t stop complaining about lemmygrad/tankies
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I haven't heard of you yet, what are they complaining about? I've only heard complaints about Nazis and fascists
Can’t tell if this is supposed to be a “tankie red fash lol” dig but I’ll take it in good faith anyways.
We uphold socialism here, not that socialist states are/were perfect places, but that they are/were legitimate attempts at building worker states, and demonstrably improved the lives of their citizens. Liberals (we use that to mean anyone from a nordic soc dem to moderate republican, or even unserious anarchists) really really don’t like this. The accuse us of “genocide denial” or just being “delusional” for questioning the dominant western narrative
It doesn't help that there really is nuance in discussing previous and current socialist experiments but even that has practically become a meme and is met with "communism has never worked" commentary from liberals.
Exactly, often times we just give up because liberals constantly make bad faith arguments, so we just respond with goofy “stalin did nothing wrong” memes
I'm actually working through some thoughts on how to even explain that there is bad and good in these systems. But unless you have a good understanding of history, theory, or even dialectics(which I don't quite yet) it's really tough to do without resorting to whataboitism. At least for me it is. A common point that I see brought up on the left, and I think it's a good argument, but when the black book of communism number of 1 gorbillian dead get brought up, you can easily argue that you can calculate 100 million excessive deaths every 10 years in the US as a counterpoint but I think we can all agree that excessive deaths are bad regardless. Well unless they are fascists of course.
This was one of the hardest parts of my transition to socialism, finding good information that didn't require a doctorates degree in history and/or philosophy. The S4A podcast has been running for years and is just now getting to the end of their "introduction to Marxism" series.... Like, you can't expect most people to do this...
After buying a number of books I am making my way through them and they are fascinating. But it did require me to self-investigate and open my mind a lot, and read a lot, to decide to study further.
The nuance is so strong and so many people have been taught bad information that it's hard to even begin a good conversation, so we resort to jokes because at least we can get a laugh out of it. I've dumped walls of text, and gotten some good results, some bad results.
I've been on the lookout for short/easy introductions that aren't in-your-face-about-it (Worked for me, but not for everyone). There's no reason to pander unnecessarily, but to provide reasoned arguments in short-form, to plant the seed of information that could bring someone out of their propaganda. I guess the biggest problem is just getting past the initial ichy feeling most people have when the word "communism" is thrown out.
I think for me it started with just anti-capitalism, and US military actions that were obviously against our "core values". But that's not enough for everyone.
I am also working on a short list that I can recommend so once I am at home and can type them up we can compare notes maybe lol. I'm trying to find books that aren't super dense but still cover all that needs to be to get the point across. For example, I had an easier time with Principles than I did with the Manifesto because Principles reads a lot like it was written recently. Still read the Manifesto tho, ya know?
I've found myself also starting to attempt to explain things in simple terms and idk where that even came from. Understanding how Marx developed his ideas for Marxism from a philosophical perspective is crucial I think but damm is it tough at times.
And yeah you can describe socialism or communism to quite a few people and not call it those words and they tend to jive with it but as soon as you drop the C or S word it's all over. I work closely with a local Dem club where I'm at(I know still liberals but a lot of them seem to mean well, and a few of them do knowy views) but a few weeks ago socialism got brought up and 2 of these older dudes started in on how "socialism has never worked" and without skipping a beat one said we need to go back to aggressively taxing the super rich. Same set of people want M4A, affordable healthcare and school and all the other stuff and I'm like yeah that's kind of socialism my dudes. And again, their is even nuance to what actually is socialism in that context but you get it.
Thank you for taking it in good faith, it's not meant as a dig, I appreciate the responses
In the minds of some, we communists are apparently one and the same with fascists.
But the reason there are so few out and out fascists on Lemmy is exactly because it's a communist project, and we were the biggest instance before the reddit exode. They actually discussed this on reddit in some of the more reactionary subs and decided it wasn't worth getting on lemmy because of this.
What do you mean when you say it's a communist project?
It's an instance for Communists, specifically Communists who support AES (actually existing socialism). In short, we think that the USSR and PRC (among others), while not perfect, were legitimate attempts at building Socialism and better than Capitalism as it exists in the West.
Other people don't like that because, to them, Stalin was just Red Hitler and Xi Jinping is literally committing a genocide right now. Neither are true.
I don't know if the user jonathan12345 in the rest of this thread reflects the rest of this community, but they're basically putting words in my mouth and disagreeing with things I'm not even saying. I'm anti capitalism, but that kind of behavior definitely makes me think this isn't a place I want to be a part of.
Lemmygrad is a space for Communists who support AES. If you do not support China, you're probably correct that this instance is not for you.
But I think you'll find it's a fine place to engage as long as you keep questions about the legitimacy of past and present Socialist experiments to the !communism101@lemmygrad.ml comm.
The fact of the matter is that, while China does have billionaires, it is not an Oligarchy in the same way the United States or Russia is because these people do not hold the power in society. In China, the Communist Party does; and while you might say that the CPC overvalues its own bureaucracy and the so-called "Labor Aristocracy", it still more-or-less represents Working Class values. There are laws in place that mandate certain proportions of Communist Party membership and leadership come from certain positions and industries specifically to avoid it becoming beholden to the very-rich.
I'm not pro China, but that doesn't mean I'm not open to learning about why you are pro China. Your response is constructive and brings to the table things I didn't know and can now further research. From the perspective of someone who works for a US corp that does business with China, and who has co workers from China, workers best interests aren't being protected at any reasonable level like they are in say Germany. But I also am aware that even though my working conditions are fine, the awful working conditions for other jobs in the US (some from the same company I work for) are covered up and hidden from the public eye as well
Calling Stalin just red Hitler kind of softens what an absolute monster he was.
I know that’s the US narrative, but I’m not so sure that’s based in fact.
Ah okay I can see how that's controversial, given China is heavy on censorship and control, and in reality they're just another form of capitalism run by a rich oligarchy. Plus with the way the world has changed, I think a new system is needed because we're heading towards enough automation that not everyone should need to work.
I don't know much about the USSR so I won't comment on that
China is not run by a rich ogliarchy. source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIOg_K6Z1fg
I approve of the source, however disagree with the conclusions
Ok but in all honestly, just because there are rich people in China doesn't mean it's a 'capitalist ogliarchy'. Sure, there are billionaires in the party, but they have just as much power as any farmer or worker, no more and no less.
That's not true in the slightest though? I mean the very fact that there are different wages, there's poverty, China invests heavily in foreign companies (both the government and private Chinese corporations), that's all capitalism. The farmer doesn't have any say in what tencent or the China Evergrande Group does. The CCP controls the media and limits free speech, and makes decisions for everyone. Even if you're to somehow convince me that the people who control the CCP aren't rich oligarchs, they're absolutely still in control of the CCP, and it's not communism.
Oh my god there are companies, guess there's no more socialism guys!1!1!!1
Just because there are companies does not mean that China is revisionist. And Tencent and China Evergrande have nothing to do with the government. Why would they?
edit: What do different wages have to do with socialism? Also it's CPC, not CCP.
We're talking about communism here not socialism, I didn't say China doesn't have socialism
I'm confused. Do you expect China to be instantly fully communist without money or class? Do you know that China started as a poor and feudal country and has constantly been under pressure and sanctions from the west?
It's like giving you control of an island full of people with almost no food and enemies thirsting to attack at any moment. Go on, build communism.
I also want to add, I feel like I was legitimately trying to engage with you and you've become defensive/lumped me in with others, which isn't really fair
Not the person you replied to, but we get a decent amount of bad faith posters here from other instances, and you were repeating some of those points. I don’t think there was ill intent by either of you, but I can understand the confusion.
I hope we don’t feel like a hostile place and I hope you learned something!
The CCP controls the media and limits free speech,
In my country like three completely unnacountable megacorporations control the media and limit free speech. The CPC at least gives a shit about public health and safety
and makes decisions for everyone
I don't remember being consulted on the decision to invade Iraq, continue the illegal blockade of Cuba, send missiles to Nazis in Ukraine, make food twice as expensive, have the sky turn blood red from fire every couple years, be watched by police snipers at a football game, live in an endless pandemic, or drink microplastics for the rest of my life.
To the first part, to my knowledge they only care about health and safety in specific cases, but they allow for working conditions with things like lead, asbestos, toxic chemicals, etc. Foxconn is the first example that pops into my head, where workers were searches and beaten, and some were committing suicide. And back when China was buying US E waste, workers would be scavenging through dangerous phosphors and mercury, plus some mild lead exposure.
To the second part, I am not comparing China to the US, I don't believe the US government is good either, so that's irrelevant
Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, headquartered in Taipei. While China has a ways to go on working conditions, the overall trend (as with pretty much every other metric) is that their conditions continue to improve due to increasing regulation, ours continue to decline in the dearch for increasing profits. I'm definitely hoping they achieve a better work/life balancr, although having been to Taiwan, I'll say they certainly can't throw any stones in that department either lol
Yes foxconn is taiwanese, but the factories I'm talking about are in Shenzhen China, therefore subject to Chinese labor laws. I do agree that things are improving over there, but they have a long way to go before I would say the country cares about health and safety of everyone