Why are the Democrats so spineless?
Why are the Democrats so spineless?
No wonder the American public thinks of Democrats as out of touch, opportunistic and cowardly. That is because they are
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What does The Gaurdian expect Democrats to do, without the Constitutional power do it?
In the last election The Executive Branch (Presidency), The Legislative Branch (Both houses of Congress) had their control swing Republican, couple that with Trump having already packed The Judicial Branch (The Supreme Court) with a Republican majority, and that's the whole ball game.
Democrats seem spineless, because not enough of The American People cast votes in Novembers election to give them to power to do or stop Republicans doing litteraly anything all.
Elections have consequences. More Arab and Latino Americans cast a vote for Donald Trump in Novembers election than have ever voted for any Republican candidate before in American History. Leftists on the other hand spent the Spring and Summer of an election year, on nightly news, marching on every major American city, and taking over University commons across the country, protesting Jews, in support of Islamofascist terrorists, chanting "From The River To The Sea", and telling anyone that would listen they weren't going to vote for "Genocide Joe", which I imaging not only freaked out Middle America, but All of it, with the kicker that Democratic youth vote was the lowest on record this past election, while Republican youth vote was the highest.
Donald Trump won his second term as President of The United States by 2.3% of the vote, and the Left suppressed the Democratic Youth Vote.
protesting Jews, in support of Islamofascist terrorists, chanting "From The River To The Sea", and telling anyone that would listen they weren't going to vote for "Genocide Joe",
Oh hey look it’s the rare genocide supporter that helped cost the election.
Funny they blame people being against genocide by Nazi state like Israel yet stay silent on the millions of dollars Kamala received by Zionist lobbyists to continue a campaign so disliked by everyone.
Funny they blame people being against genocide by Nazi state like Israel yet stay silent on the millions of dollars Kamala received by Zionist lobbyists to continue a campaign so disliked by everyone.
Funny that the anti-electoralists and protest vote crowd were just fine with enabling the installation of another nazi state but in the US that would provide more support to the ongoing genocide and expand it to other areas like LGBTQ+ people and aiming to start another world war. The least that they could do is take responsibility for their actions but, I don't see that happening.
The least that they could do is take responsibility for their actions but, I don’t see that happening.
That's never going to happen. They'll just downvote you to feel better about themselves.
Take a look at my post history, including in this very thread. Despite repeatedly asking, I have never had a single one of these morons ever actually answer the question of how allowing Trump to return to power was in any way better. The most they do is either downvote silently because they know they have no answer, or just tell me to go fuck myself.
And I don't expect to ever get an answer either. I'm going to keep asking because I think the downvotes are hilarious. But I don't actually ever expect to get a serious response.
Despite repeatedly asking, I have never had a single one of these morons ever actually answer the question of how allowing Trump to return to power was in any way better.
Hello my partner in the democratic party, The floor is yours. Sprawl out on your belly and continue pounding the floor with both fists like the rest of your hostage taking ilk. If your side wanted to win, a win was in your grasp with a single announcement from Harris, she chose not to make that announcement. You never contest that point, why not? So yes we're here in the wilderness with you. Difference is, we progressives (whose votes you absolutely needed to win) have been here a while. Check out my camp chair and marshmallow stick, cool eh?
Say, what outcome are you hoping to achieve with this increaingly boring and pointless messaging ? Are you trying to get progressives to join a future genocide? I think history has shown pretty conclusively that thats not going to work. Anything else you need, party-brother?
I have a declaration of universal human rights that you might have never seen before, to pass the time. Or the works of Emmanuel Kant. Some stuff from MLK.
Well here's a serious answer: Allowing Trump to return to power is collateral damage, and really bad collateral damage but it was simply unacceptable to allow Harris to win the election with that mess of a platform. One would hope for a mass movement to resist Trump during or after election seasons, but American leftists are too spineless to do anything other than complain so the end result is... this mess.
but American leftists are too spineless to do anything other than complain so the end result is… this mess.
Um, we've been doing far more than complaining... Who do you think is organizing on the ground right now, and have been for years? I mean, not like the Dems helped, or even moved out of the way of that organizing...
I mean, I really did enjoy getting tear gassed by Democratic party cops for daring to protest against police.
Well here’s a serious answer: Allowing Trump to return to power is collateral damage, and really bad collateral damage but it was simply unacceptable to allow Harris to win the election with that mess of a platform.
Explain how allowing Trump to return to power was better in any way. Pick something, anything that was so unacceptable that you couldn't vote for Harris and explain how allowing Trump to return to power was the better option. Pick multiple things if you want.
You don't stop shooting yourself in the foot by pointing the gun at your head instead.
One would hope for a mass movement to resist Trump during or after election seasons
So your plan was to allow him to return to power and just hope to be able to resist later? You didn't think this thing through very well, did you?
but American leftists are too spineless to do anything other than complain so the end result is… this mess.
And exactly what do you expect them to do now that you've stripped them from all power at every level of government? And wouldn't it have been easier to just hold your nose, vote for Harris, and prevent this situation from occurring in the first place?
So first I'm not American, so I didn't do anything, but that aside:
Explain how allowing Trump to return to power was better in any way. Pick something, anything that was so unacceptable that you couldn't vote for Harris and explain how allowing Trump to return to power was the better option. Pick multiple things if you want.
The GOP is obviously a lost cause, but the DNC doesn't have to be. Allowing the DNC to succeed in the election after their attempt to shift to the right again would set the precedent that they can do whatever the fuck they want and people will still vote for them. Then your two options become the fascist GOP or the now actively harmful DNC, and there's nowhere that can lead other than GOP fascism. Between the choice of Trump now or JD Vance in 8 years, Trump now is the better choice if it will allow you to avoid JD Vance in 8 years. Which leads to my other point:
So your plan was to allow him to return to power and just hope to be able to resist later? You didn't think this thing through very well, did you?
The ideal scenario would be mass Democrat protests (and other direct action such as strikes if and when protesting fails) when the DNC nominated Harris without a primary that would lead to the nomination of a competent candidate or at least a better platform for Harris than the monstrosity she ran with. I mean Republicans in her cabinet? Border wall? Just yikes. Anyway the American public chose to stay silent here. The less ideal but still workable scenario would be a Democrat mass movement riding the wave of Abandon Harris and the Uncommitted movement to, again, force the DNC to relent on their unpopular platform. The American public either stayed silent or actively ridiculed these movements, telling them to "hold your nose and vote for her". From that point onward there was no happy ending and the only thing to be done was damage control. With that in mind let's think about how the damage could be controlled: One way would be, as you said, to vote for Harris and try to avoid the current situation. That allows you to bet on Trump dying or being convicted before 2028, but in the case he wasn't he was 100% going to win in 2028 because Harris's platform put to action was going to piss off everyone to the left of Dick Cheney, and her being a black woman would piss off everyone to the right of Dick Cheney. Also, even if Trump was out of the picture before 2028 you'd run the risk of the GOP nominee being an actual good politician riding the Trumpist wave to destroy the country worse than Trump—who is fundamentally limited by being dumber than a sack of potatoes— ever could. Standing in the face of all this would be a DNC that learned from their 2024 victory that being outwardly rightwing corporate stooges works. The short of it is: The problem with a Harris 2024 victory was that nothing Harris was going to do in her term was going to prevent a Trump/Trump clone from winning 2028. "Let's cross that bridge when we get to it" doesn't work when American leftists have proven time and time again that they don't know how to cross bridges. The other option is... well, you're living it right now. Again, nothing is going to happen without a mass movement against Trumpism and for progressive economic policy so if nobody does anything (which seems to be the case) y'all are toast but that was going to be the case no matter who won the 2024 election.
And exactly what do you expect them to do now that you've stripped them from all power at every level of government?
The DNC isn't leftist, just to make that clear. By leftists I mean actual American people with leftist values, and as for what they can do... well, there are many things but you can ask the French or the Spanish. Spaniards went on a general strike in October where
they called the country to come to a complete halt until the government breaks its diplomatic relations with Israel, as well as its commercial and military ties that include a weapons trade valued at over one billion euros.
Now I'm not talking about solidarity with Palestine here, but this is one way to make your government do something it doesn't want to do. So why are we not hearing of Americans going on strike to stop the Trump government from ruining the country?
And wouldn't it have been easier to just hold your nose, vote for Harris, and prevent this situation from occurring in the first place?
See above.
how allowing Trump to return to power was in any way better
How was arresting your voters for protesting genocide helping keep Trump out of power?
ongoing genocide
Uh... Why do y'all forget that there's a ceasefire going on right now? There's a ceasefire that Trump was at least part of achieving, so while Israel is still up to their normal levels of Apartheid, the capital Gaza genocide is over, or at least paused.
The genocide is not over just because they paused killing in Gaza and restarted killing in the West Bank.
By that definition Palestine has been under genocide for 50 years. Which, okay fair enough but that has nothing to do with the claim that Trump is worse than Biden for Palestine.
By that definition Palestine has been under genocide for 50 years.
Yeah, that's right. Slower or faster, but always and inexorably genocide.
By that definition Palestine has been under genocide for 50 years
Yes. 70+, to be more accurate.
There’s a ceasefire that Trump was at least part of achieving
No. He had nothing to do with it, aside from promising he'd publicly give Bibi free reign if he won, which was better than not publicly giving Bibi free reign while still giving it to him.
The way I saw the last election was like this:
People were demanding the Dems to stop supporting genocide, but Kamala was not going to make any changes on that front.
However, any other option would wind up allowing Trump to happen, which is just objectively a worse scenario.
It's like we all saw a horrible fire headed our way and we needed to choose which bus to get into. People advocating for the blue bus knew it wasn't the most ideal bus since they were helping throw gasoline on an external fire in another place. But the red bus wanted the fire and was the cause of the fire and clearly wasn't going to stop throwing gasoline on that external fire anyway. People were protesting that the blue bus needed to stop helping put gasoline on that or else they won't help people get on the blue bus. And now we're stuck with the red bus and we're all on fire.
Granted, the protesters weren't necessarily the strict cause of us being stuck with the red bus and us all being on fire, but they sure didn't help. And them acting morally superior is childish considering they didn't help us try to get out of our own fire and the external fire is not any better due to the red bus, so their protest effectively did nothing anyway as everyone else already knew was going to be the case.
It’s like we all saw a horrible fire headed our way
Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?
So voting for the people who started the fire is your solution?
In the hopes they had lied about their stated plan to keep that fire burning as long as the Israelis wanted?
When they knew they'd lose the election by stoking that fire and they continued to stoke it anyway? But its the voters who are to be blamed huh. Harris could have won by admitting Israel was engaged in a genocide, about two weeks before election day.
No I dont think your suggestion is logical at all. Its a tired argument and its hostage taking by the DNC. I dont negotiate with far right wing terrorists-- whether they are democrats or republican or other. Sometimes when given an impossible choice of two murderous outcomes, the correct response is to make no choice, and stand up to smash all the people and systems that made this vote "neccessary".
Now that the election is over, will you lay on the ground removed or will you get whats needed done? Its time for you to stop talking about the past and start being a decent human being pushing for a brighter future. Remember when doing the right thing was something we all did? When will that start being present in your mind again?
Doing the right thing is making sure we can stand longer to keep fighting for what's right, not throwing a fit when you can't get 100% of what you want. No matter how much you throw a fit, it was not going to help, but you could have done something to make things not worse. All throwing a fit accomplished was virtue signaling.
Now we're worse off and stand even less of a chance of making progress.
I don't understand how people thought it was a good idea to throw a fit because the choice was between "the same shit" or "even worse shit". We needed help avoiding even worse shit. You did not help with your virtue signaling.
No matter how much you throw a fit, it was not going to help
That sounds suspiciously like just blind acceptance that we have no power, will never have any power, and sort of like a suggestion that I should just lay back and enjoy it. And if thats true we need to burn the system to the ground-- no matter the short term pain-- not lend our support to it so it continues year after year. If you're right, it has to end.
You're clearly misrepresenting my argument. I'm literally saying that the power we do have is elsewhere. Trying to assert we have immediate power over the current presidential election by throwing a fit is ridiculous.
If you want change, then we need to change our first-past-the-post voting system. Until then, throwing a fit about our limited choices is ignorant.
I’m literally saying that the power we do have is elsewhere
Then you're literally living in a dreamworld. Politicians dont care what we think except during an election. They dont even care about your patheticly small donations. This been proven without a doubt. FPTP benefits the DNC, so they would never change it unless they are leveraged to do so. What were you going to do, write letters to interns? hold a sign on the steps? It didnt work for Defund, and that was a much more potent cause. You as a dem voter have two short moments of power and leverage, and those were when you voted in the primaries and general.
You were conned into doing exactly what you were told and missed your chance to have any power. If 80% of the dems had voted uncomitted in the primary you bet your ass Biden/Harris would have acted, and Biden stil would have won the primary. But I bet you didnt vote uncomitted did you?
Plenty of time to do the right thing later, you think.
You've proven your ignorance. Democrats have already been trying to get ranked choice voting.
It's absolutely pointless to try to talk to someone like you. You just want to be right, even if it means spouting things that are easily proven wrong.
Democrats have already been trying to get ranked choice voting.
I've been "trying to get" a bunch of things I'll never get, so I understand your disappointment. Hey, maybe next election, eh?
Yep. That is actually correct. We've definitely gotten some progress and getting things we want and need in the face of the right-wing opposition. It's more and more likely as people continue to work together instead of throwing a hissy fit and virtue signaling. Maybe try working together and you'll get more of what you want.
The road to success is paved in increments, not all at once. However, by demanding you get everything instantly and trying to sabotage the only group that can stand a chance against the worse option. Then you're only helping a regime that is actively making things worse and undoing any progress that has been made. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for that.
But, I'm certain that you're either intentionally spreading propaganda or just doing so in ignorance that you've been manipulated, so no reasonable logic I say is going to make any difference while your head is in the ground. You've proven that already by spouting outright falsehoods.
And them acting morally superior is childish considering they didn’t help us try to get out of our own fire
How many times do you expect people to put their deeply held morals aside, to help elect amoral people seize power?
So you decide that the best course of action is to allow a man who has explicitly stated he just wants to see the whole place razed to regain power? How did that help Gaza at all?
Well the guy who explicitly stated he just wants to see the whole place razed got the ceasefire Biden "tried" and failed to achieve for 15 months, which I'd say helped Gaza.
Sure, in the same way Reagan "got the hostages released" -- by colluding with another fascist to make each other look good, so they can gain power and execute their agenda (and their enemies) later.
You've been played and you don't even realize it.
Okay I won't deny that this possibility exists—though I don't think it's likely either—but okay, and? Muslims in America wanted one thing: A Gaza ceasefire. Biden didn't give them that, but Trump did. Therefore the idea that Trump was going to or is funding the genocide harder than Biden did is simply false.
I'll wait till I see what Egypt and Jordan have to say about this. If they accept, which is necessary for Trump's plan and exceedingly unlikely, I'll eat my words.
Whether Egypt or Jordan accept or not is completely beside the point. Forced relocation is genocide. Trump supports genocide of the Palestinians -- it's right there printed in black and white.
If they don't accept he'll have nowhere to relocate them to, is my point. That will be the decider of whether this is just rhetoric (which has always been awful; this is Donald "finish the job" Trump) or real action.
What Egypt or Jordan say doesn't matter. He'll expel the people of Gaza regardless.
In an "ends justify the means" way, sure. (And I'll concede that an ends-justify-the-means victory is still a victory some are willing to accept). He basically threatened to nuke and pave the place if Hamas didn't give up the hostages. So if you consider that a win, then sure. Trump basically "won" by saying he's going to turn up the genocide, and maybe he'll hold back the genocide for a little while if Hamas gives up the hostages. And that's where we are now. Gaza gets to exist until Trump says they don't.
He basically threatened to nuke and pave the place if Hamas didn't give up the hostages. So if you consider that a win, then sure.
Hamas was never the ones stopping the deal from happening; that was always Israel, whom Trump told in no uncertain terms to end the war or else. I won't deny the possibility that Hamas was also pushed along by Trump, but remember that Hamas wanted to give up the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire. That was the whole point of taking hostages back in October 7th, and they accepted the deal when Biden first presented it in May.
He also approved them moving the violence to the West Bank.
Okay, and? I think you're misunderstanding something here: The problem with Biden and Harris after him was never that they were just Zionists; all American presidents who were contemporary with Israel were Zionists. The problem was that the level and scale of cruelty they accepted and supported in the Gaza war was unprecedented. Even the Zionist American government would normally not allow Israel to commit genocide on such a scale. See: Reagan during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Tell me he's worse than Biden when he allows something on that scale; otherwise he's just a regular US president aiding regular crimes against humanity.
whom Trump told in no uncertain terms to end the war or else
You make it sound like he's not joined at the hip to Netanyahu. "Don't finish the genocode, we'll do it for you" isn't really ending the war, is it? It looks more like an escalation, as does the mass expulsion he's proposing, which is, by all accepted definitions, genocide.
In my defense I wrote this before the "let's flatten Gaza" stuff. I am, however, taking solace in the fact that what Trump is trying to do is geopolitically impossible.
What does The Gaurdian expect Democrats to do, without the Constitutional power do it?
I've been asking this since the election, and the best answer I get is being told to go fuck myself.
The GOP has control of all three branches of government, along with over half of the state governments. Every single state in the country swung to the right in this election, to some degree. They get to spend at least the next two years, most likely four, having the power to do exactly nothing but sit back and watch. The most they can do are angry tweets and messaging bills that won't even make it to the floor, let alone get a vote. What the fuck does anybody expect the Democrats to be able to do about it? The last available option is the Senate where Democrats can still throw a monkey wrench into the works until the GOP decide to yank the fillibuster. And once that's gone -- and it will be gone -- Democrats will literally have no power other than to sit there and be benchwarmers.
You had your chance in November, but at least some of you decided to stay home because "Genocide Joe", "old man bad", or "teh price of muh eggz" and when you're told that Trump would be worse saying "Yeah but at least its different". Well, this is what you get. Elections have consequences, and you just gave Trump all the power to do anything he wants because fuck you that's why. You don't get to complain now when all Trump is doing is delivering on the promises that he spent his entire campaign explicitly making. You don't get to act all shocked and surprised now.
The time to do something about this was November 5, 2024. And Democrats as a whole decided to take that opportunity and hand power right back to Trump.
I've been asking this since the election, and the best answer I get is being told to go fuck myself.
Well state governments, for one, should be doing a lot more to resist Trump's rampage. I mean that fucker withheld FEMA money from California right? Why is nobody saying anything about that?
Well state governments, for one, should be doing a lot more to resist Trump’s rampage. I mean that fucker withheld FEMA money from California right? Why is nobody saying anything about that?
The GOP have control of over half the state governments and are fully on the Trump train. As for the other states, exactly what do you expect them to do about it?
Admittedly I don't know much about the nitty gritty of states rights in America, but again at least say something when the Trump-led federal government interferes in your affairs. The two examples that come to mind are the FEMA money thing and Trump opening wholly unnecessary dams in California.
Trump opening wholly unnecessary dams in California
That's worse than unnecessary. Removing water from those reservoirs is going to exacerbate the drought when we get into the dry season in the autumn.
One thing Democrats could do at the federal level is to withhold consent for Trump's appointments instead of rubber-stamping them.
Democrats seem spineless, because not enough of The American People cast votes in Novembers election to give them to power to do or stop Republicans doing litteraly anything all.
Maybe if the Dems stopped tossing people into prison for protesting genocides, or for protesting police abuse of authority, there might be more people able to vote for a Dem?