3mo ago

Quick thinking

You're viewing part of a thread.

Show Context

282 comments

Liberals are not the left. They are the ones responsible for this mess. Them still blaming the left, the true left, means that either they understand nothing of life and politics, or that they, as always, prefer to fight the left rather than fascism if give n the choice.
Hitler came into power because the the liberals sided with him to fight the left. The left was already fighting the nazis for a while at this point.
History repeats itself: while the left tries to fight fascism and warns about, the liberals pretend they're also fighting this fight, but actually lean more and more toward a fascist discourse and ultimately side with them.
Biden had 4 fucking years to fight fascism. He did absolutely nothing. He waited for the election result to scramble emergency measures to save what could still be saved.
What's happening in the US is happening everywhere, in Europe too. Liberal governments still push liberal policies that everyone hates, and talk like the left is responsible for all the problems in the world. Meanwhile the fascist bought all medias and half the politicians and the liberals are doing nothing about it.
Liberals had absolutely all the powers in most government and international institutions, yet they did absolutely fuck all to fight the fascism that's rising in plain sight for 50 fucking years!
- This stuff again about "true-left" and what not. Framing all liberals as part of the problem ignores the bigger picture. I agree that liberals have often been weak in confronting fascism, and some have even enabled it, but they’re not monolithic. Many liberal voters are just politically disengaged or confused about what’s happening. If you just write them off as enemies, you're pushing them closer to reactionaries rather than pulling them toward the left. Anybody that opposes "right-wingism" is good enough of a leftist to me. The real question is how do we win them over instead of letting the right absorb them?
  
  This stuff again about "true-left" and what not
  Liberals literally aren't left-wing, it's a right-wing ideology
  Framing all liberals as part of the problem ignores the bigger picture
  No, it correctly claims that they're right wingers and thus, problematic
  Many liberal voters are just politically disengaged or confused about what’s happening
  Not an excuse at all
  Anybody that opposes "right-wingism" is good enough of a leftist to me
  That's not Liberals
  The real question is how do we win them over instead of letting the right absorb them?
  Beat them violently into submission, as they deserve
  
  Username checks out
  
  What can i say🤷
  
  So by "ultra left purism" you think the actual left should be willing to accept compromise positions with literal fascists and their enablers (and by enablers, I also mean those who are willing to compromise with fascists)? Because that's all the Democrats seem to have doing so far. There is even bipartisan support for many of Trump's nominees going on as we speak. When given the choice between socialism and fascism, liberals choose fascism every single time, because it's more aligned with their core values. I know liberals still cling to the belief they are "progressive" and in some ways that's true, at least compared to the Republicans. But meanwhile, the US has still not got universal healthcare, free education, or a decent social safety net. Democratic governors still imprison black people at hugely inflated rates, through unjust laws and unjust police methods, and rent out prison labor as a form of slave labor. No establishment Democrats are talking about getting money out of politics or seriously challenging what Trump is doing. None of those things will ever be properly addressed by the Democrats. They are the cause of the shitty status quo just as much as the Republicans are.
  
  You're attacking a strawman. Nobody is saying the left should "compromise with literal fascists." What I'm saying is that coalition-building is necessary for power.
  Yes, Democrats have serious problems. Yes, they enable capitalist exploitation and refuse to meaningfully challenge corporate power. Yes, they uphold the prison-industrial complex. But that doesn't make them the same as fascists. Fascists want outright ethnostates, mass purges, dictatorship, and full corporate-state fusion.
  When liberals are pushed into a binary choice between socialism and fascism, they historically do lean right. But that’s because leftists have failed and continuously fail to make socialism a viable option for them. Instead of winning them over, ultra-leftists alienate them with purity tests and outright hostility. And then, when the left remains weak and ineffective, they blame liberals for siding with the right. It’s self-sabotage.
  So how about not purity-testing everyone and recognize that politics is about coalitions, not ideological perfection?
  
  Maybe stop asking leftists to swing to the right (which is what you mean by compromise, presumably) and make some concessions of your own towards the left for a change, then maybe we can talk about coalition building.
  Step 1: Get rid of the gerontocracy from the Democratic Party and replace them with actual liberal progressives, instead of spending money to run pro-corporate candidates against your own progressives.
  Step 2: Stand for something other than corporate tax breaks and whatever the latest polls say. Make real public health care part of your party platform. Make raising taxes on the wealthy part of your platform. Raise the minimum wage to a living wage. Even better, support UBI. Get rid of laws that are discriminatory against POC, and get rid of for-profit prisons and prisoners-for-rent aka modern slavery. Regulate corporations properly to stop the worst abuses of corporate power and tax avoidance. Get money completely out of politics. Stop supplying weapons to Israel to wage genocide on its neighbours. Just a few obvious ideas to help kick things off.
  Step 3: Even though we know liberals are still true believers in neo-capitalist economics (for some reason), if the Democrats showed any sign of progress on any of the step 2 topics (most of which can be implemented perfectly well under a capitalist economy - just look at the Nordic States), the left would be a lot more amenable to coalition building, despite the fact we would prefer socialism. But sadly there's been no progress and we don't expect any progress while the current crop of boomers are still in charge of the Democratic Party.
  
  Maybe stop asking leftists to swing to the right (which is what you mean by compromise, presumably) and make some concessions of your own towards the left for a change, then maybe we can talk about coalition building.
  Obama did it and it was fine. You're a closed-minded leftist. It's fine. Your type is so prevalent, that's why we're never going to gain power.
  Fwiw, I don't disagree with your positions, but i think the core of leftism should remain working class issues (AOC and Bernie also identify with this stance) and liberals to some extent share that stance.

282 comments