1y ago

Masochism

You're viewing a single thread.

244 comments

I never understood the obsession with stupid difficult games at all. It's like, let me bang my head on a coffee table for 3 hours trying to make 5 minutes of progress. No thanks
Edit: Wow, this blew up, quite a controversial take, and not a hint of irony from all the people commenting about how I don't get it.
Edit 2: For what it's worth, I have played Dark Souls 1 all the way through, some of Dark Souls 2, got to the end of Bloodborne, played about 3 hours of Elden Ring, and a bit of Lies of P. These games just aren't for me. I played them bcz my friend loves them, and I was trying to make a soulslike bcz that seems to be all the rage right now.
- On the flip side, I don't understand why people like playing video games that just tell a story and pretty much spoon feed every victory to the player. It feels hollow and incredibly boring.
  
  like movies?
  
  You know there's a middle ground, right? There exist games that manage to balance difficulty in a way that gives players a consistent challenge that they're just able to overcome. The best games have these things called "difficulty settings" that let you customize that challenge so that you can decide how hard you want it to be
  
  Cool... But why are you acting like I said every video game is either too hard or too easy?
  
  I will agree with that sentiment somewhat. I don't play games on easy either, that's boring. I don't mind dying a few times to a boss. It's the soul crushing difficulty of Souls games I don't enjoy. 17 deaths in, and i still have barely cracked half health of some bosses. Not my cup of tea.
  
  On the flip side, I don’t understand why people like playing video games that just tell a story and pretty much spoon feed every victory to the player. It feels hollow and incredibly boring.
  Do you feel that way about movies? Because what you're essentially describing there is an interactive movie. Maybe they're selling it as a game, but that's because there's no market for a product that calls itself an interactive movie.
  
  This is my viewpoint as well.
  From immediate memory I feel Mass Effect, and Ratchet and Clank, fit this category.
  Both are still very fun despite the fact.
  
  There was a company that actually put out two "games" which they came right out at front and called interactive movies. They were called Quantum Gate and The Vortex.
  The first one was, in my opinion, really good. There was no game at all. It was basically a choose-your-own-adventure where you walked around and encountered people and there were short video clip interactions with them in a first person perspective. With the second one, they tried to do too much and it was nowhere near as good, but the concept was sound and I wish it was more common.
  
  I don't expect a movie to have gameplay. I don't expect a video game to be a movie.
  If I want to watch a movie, I watch a movie. When I want to play a game, I want to actually play something. Not just sit back and watch.
  
  Well I guess it's too bad for you that other people have other tastes and those tastes are also catered to. 🤷
  
  Did I say I dislike people who like those things, or something? I just said I don't understand it. You have a choice of an active or a passive medium; why would you insist on turning the active medium into a passive one instead of just sticking to the passive medium in the first place?
  Must've struck a nerve here because dude who says "I don't understand hard games" gets people explaining why people would like a hard game; but I say I don't understand extremely easy games and everyone treats it like a gotcha moment.
  
  It's me, the target audience for "walking simulators." Sometimes I just like experiencing stories that stick with me, be it as a movie, book or game. On the other hand, I can't stand games that try to have a story but it's just not a good story (or only good by video game standards).
  
  I like games because of freedom to do things and make choices.
- ER is not even difficult unless you specifically want it to be
  
  I played it for 3 hours. Unless I'm missing something, it's incredibly difficult.
  
  Here's 2 tips:
  Level up Vigor. Health is how you make early game easier.
  Skip bosses. There isn't a hard linear progression path and different builds struggle with different parts of the game.
  
  Counter-point: No.
  I rather play something fun.
  
  Everyone experiences fun in their own ways. You're allowed to not want to play hard games just like other people are allowed to want to play hard games. It doesn't have to be an argument about which is "better."
  
  Fun is subjective. For me, challenge is fun.
  
  That's fair, maybe I'll give it another shot one of these days. A friend of mine also suggested running from some of the enemies.
  
  Yeah, that's what my 2nd point is about also. It is natural to hit roadblocks, and in ER usually the correct move is to pursue a different path and come back once you're stronger. It can be a fun game, but forcing yourself to play it is not right either
  
  Did you spend that time trying to fight the Tree Sentinal (mounted knight boss) just in front of where you start? You don’t have to, and you shouldn’t unless you’re extremely skilled or masochistic. You can go around and find less dangerous enemies.
  
  I don't remember anymore. This was like two years ago now.
  
  Depends on what you define as hard. Sometimes, simply dying a bunch doesn't mean a game is hard, Armored Core 6 for example. Yeah you can die a bunch in Armored Core 6, but a particular level can become downright easy if you have the right build for it, especially since the game actually encourages you to change builds consistently, since after you die you are allowed to change your build for a level. Experimentation, changing tactics, etc, is fun.
  Also Dwarf Fortress, dying is fun.
  Also for me, "hard" games would be stuff that are boring and grindy. Because they are literally hard mentally to play and maintain focus on lol.
  
  I’ve refused to play it cause I’m bad at video games and I don’t feel like playing something punishingly difficult cause that isn’t fun for me. This is the first time I’m hearing someone claim it’s not difficult
  
  I mean, it's a valid point. I won't claim soulslikes are all easy and it's easy to play them all the time - they definitely have a difficulty curve, and not everyone is comfortable with the kind of difficulty this genre has. But to claim they're all so difficult as to be unplayable and it never changes is equally fallacious
  
  Agreed for the most part. That final DLC boss on release was pretty tough, even considering the other games. No orphan though. F that thing.
  
  That final DLC boss on release was pretty tough
  Yeah he was way overtuned. The last patch has nerfed him heavily though, and finally made the cross-slash attack dodgeable.
  
  Nice. I played through a couple times near release on a high level character. Started a new character and haven't attempted him again yet. Maybe I'll go and do that.
  
  That was overtuned, I'll give you that. Tho you still have to play through the other 99% of the game to get to it
  
  Definitely agree.
  
  I got 60 hours in, got bored when while the world design looks nice it just feels so empty to me. Like Disneyland with extreme proportions, not a real place. That killed the vibe of the story for me- which was the only reason I was even trying to play. It was difficult for me, but that's because I don't enjoy trying the same fight 10-20 times.
- Overcoming adversity, or maybe they just want to be the guy
  
  It definitely was a nice distraction while shit in my life was going down. That and the gym.....now only if I could get back into the gym.
- It's not for everyone, but there's a subset of people who enjoy hitting their desk 10 hours straight just to beat a single boss. It's very satisfying in the end, and often also repeating the fight perfectly just feels so damn good it's worth the struggle.
  It's really not different than fighting hard battles with your other hobbies, learning that difficult technique or whatever
  
  It feels like old 2-d shooters on NES. You're just expected to memorize patterns in order to win. So you have to die a couple times to figure it out, but it's just tedious to me. I enjoy things designed for you to figure out on the fly without requiring dying in your first try.
  
  Sometime, I want to make a VR vs Action "Proof of Concept" game that shows how much modern game combat is memorization. The VR player can do as much extensive windup as he wants, essentially creating a new "attack animation" on each go, and the action player must desperately try to work out when to dodge for iframes or parry.
  
  Exactly, I love VR because of the freedom/creativity of input. Even just playing an FPS and seeing a table you can duck under or a corner you can blindfire around
  
  I have no experience in neither dark souls or the NES shooters, but used to do a lot of raiding in world of warcraft and I feel it's kind of mix of both, memorizing patterns, thinking on your feet and on top of that coordination of the 25man raid group. Loved that shit
  
  I found Elden Ring much easier than people said it was, but I did get some very good advice on grinding early so I was kinda overleveled through a lot of it. I had a blast, though! I’m finding the expansion extremely tough, but I need to explore for more buffs!
  
  I spent like 3 days trying to beat Ornstein and Smough in Dark Souls 1. One of the hardest bosses in the game from what I'm told. Just not my taste, but I played it bcz one of my friends loves it, and I was trying to make a soulslike game at one point.
  
  I remember that fight. It was my first souls game and I went in blind and didn't summon. Took me like a week straight of trying in-between studying for exams in the last year of uni.
  I remember my partner and I had a friend over for a study party and I decided to take a quick break for a try. Somehow I beat them, and proceeded to scare the others when they heard my yelling. Great times.
  100 % my favorite moment in my gaming experience.
- For me it was great challenge. Sure it was not easy but it's doable and the feeling of overcoming a fight you thought to be impossible gives a great feeling of growth and succes.
  
  I get that, that's what my friend says too. He really enjoys Souls games. I just don't feel the same way.
  
  See, I feel that way about some games, Celeste for example. I guess I just don't like the punishing difficulty of souls games.
- The draw of elder ring and soulsborne games in general is the challenge. Taking the time, failing, learning and getting good, finally beating that challenging boss, the thrill and rush of seeing the big "You Defeated" text across the screen is truly unmatched by most other games.
  I also totally get not wanting to go through that. The low moments in the game can hit really hard on the motivation to play. Hitting a difficulty wall and just not having the ability to progress, dying a second time and losing a ton of souls/currency you were going to use to level up.
  
  I've actually gotten to the point that I can stomach playing Soulslikes, I just don't care to play them. My friend loves games like this, so I'll once in a while give them a try. I played some of the classics, DS1, DS2, and Bloodborne with him. But by myself, I'm pretty meh about these games.
  
  Totally understandable, not trying to say you need to play the genre if its not your cup ofntea, I'm just highlighting what draws people to these games.
  Oh and beyond the "it's a challenge to overcome" crowd, Soulsborne games also draw in the lore nerds too. There's a lot of stories about the world and it's inhabitants to discover though the flavor text on items and through the environmental storytelling.
- Do you like a 1000 piece puzzle or a 100 piece
  
  I'm not a big puzzle person, but when I do them with my wife, I usually go for like 500ish piece puzzles.
- Very game dependant for me. I enjoy metro/stalker on their highest difficulties and play CS2 sometimes but most other singleplayer games yeah no thanks. It's mostly just a flat increase to health and damage anyway
- Maybe stop and think that it isn't that difficult to everyone? I don't want to sound elitist, but people have different level of skills at video games (or anything really).
  Saying no games should be hard is like saying no books should be difficult to read. To take the book analogy further, at some point after reading a lot of books you want to read more and more complex books. To say we shouldn't have difficult books would be a disservice to those who want them.
  Both easy and hard games should exist. And everything in between. Not every game needs to be played by everyone, which I think really is the issue. People feeling left out or pressured into games that aren't their play style.
  Complaining that the game is too hard , or the opposite, that the player is too bad. Both of these are the wrong approach. The best approach is "I'm not the intended audience for this game"
  
  But what if I want to play ER for the story that everyone keeps gushing about?
  
  See, there are many soulslike games that have attempted this; make the base game play normally, but also add invincibility options or low-difficulty modes for those who prefer it. BUT, those games don't work, and utterly fail, because --TODO: INSERT BULLSHIT MADE UP REASON BEFORE POSTING--
  
  Then watch someone on YouTube do the suffering for you. At that point it’s just a movie.
  
  I'd recommend looking up guides to help griding up to level 150 and do a guided build. Then you can take on every boss pretty easily with 20min of practice.
  
  And here is the problem with elden ring.
  Grinding.
  Since when is grinding fun? The word itself, grinding isn't even fun.
  Elden ring is my most played most hated game. I come back for the vistas, the art. But there is no story and if there is it's stupidly well hidden. Some story quests are so very easily missed and other things just impossible to do without a guide. Also the fact that there is no quest log (do this for that guy) makes returning to elden ring after a hiatus almost impossible.
  Choosing a fighter class makes the game way too hard. But if you choose a caster the difficulty drops like 400% or even more.
  No guidance. Nothing. Fuck you if you chose a samurai because he looked cool on your first playthrough.
  Everything is hidden behind a grind wall. And so many quests are so very buggy. In my current playthrough I should meet blaidd the half wolf down below looking up to whats the cities name. But he isnt there. Doesn't spawn. Apparently i went of on another quest and it conflicts or something. Now im stuck.
  Do bushes talk? Here they do. Because one of them isn't a bush. A voice says: over here! But what is that, exactly? Here? Where is here? Im on a computer, directional audio doesn't really work. It took me hours to find that useless guy.
  Jellyfish. Just kill them, they are inconsequential and do not really interact with the player. They cant talk. Untill.. You're far into the game and suddenly you hear a voice. Talking about his/her lost spouse. Who? Where? You just slay that jellyfish because they cant talk, that cant be it. Or.. It could? Fuck it was. Important item forever locked to you.
  If you like that kind of foolery in a game i seriously recommend the 80s/90s sierra online games. Police quest, kings quest, the larry games. But i thought we where way past those kind of stupid game mechanics. Ken sent me. Flush the toilet. But not too many times because then you drown. Go to the hooker but if you forgot to buy a condom you die. Dont give a too big tip to the cabbie. He will buy liquor, get drunk and kill you both. The dialog made that fun. The first time.
  The difference was, in those ganes i could save scum. Here I can't.
  I fucking love AC6. that's a masterpiece by from software. But ER? ER shouldn't be easier, it should explain more. Not much but a little. I see you chose a fighter. Are you sure? We recommend a caster class for beginners. Give me a quest log. Unbug those quests. Give a warning if something breaks something else.
  And thats the problem with ER. It could be fantastic
  
  I love grinding. That’s why I still play wow 15 years later.
  
  Then you gotta push through, beat it. Or decide it's not worth it.
  I've done that couple times with Silmarillion, decided that the story is not worth it.
  
  I have played Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2, and Bloodborne. I just don't like Souls games, but my friend does, so i played them with him.
- They gotta make something their personality!
  
  Sarcastic hilarity must be yours!
- What I like about ER compared to the other games is that if I find a section too challenging, I have the option to go explore somewhere else and come back better leveled.
- Because finally conquering that boss and getting to explore further feels so good. It feels good to git gud
- Not everyone’s content to be spoon fed their dopamine.
  
  I guess..

244 comments