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  • Did you read any of those links? 10% of world GDP. That's not relatively little. That's insane.

    And stocks doesn't automatically mean good. How much of that is speculative bubbles and hype-driven overvalued stocks?

    • Did you read any of those links? 10% of world GDP. That's not relatively little. That's insane.

      I have only overflown the Oxford paper. Caught my attention with the affect of increasing taxing the rich. Interesting take, but purely theoretical with no reasonable adaption possibility. The rich would just leave the country and some other country would profit from their taxes.

      And stocks doesn't automatically mean good. How much of that is speculative bubbles and hype-driven overvalued stocks?

      If you believe to know which ones are overvalued, then you should try to go buy short positions in them. Maybe you become rich then?

      Jokes aside. The stock market is relatively precise, it also projects potential into the future. Due to that many stocks to combat climate change have risen in popularity and a lot of money has been brought to said companies by purely capitalistic driven motives.

      • The rich would just leave the country and some other country would profit from their taxes.

        This is an oft-repeated talking point but usually contradicted by data. Sounds smart but isn't smart.

        https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/20/if-you-tax-the-rich-they-wont-leave-us-data-contradicts-millionaires-threats

        https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/11/20/if-you-tax-the-rich-they-dont-move-they-just-pay/

        Rich people are people and most people don't just up and leave behind places they've built their lives in unless under extreme pressure. A few billionaires might relocate to the Bahamas but they're not going to be able to take their mansions and penthouses with them - and they lose out on the markets, infrastructure, and other benefits of their home countries. That's a major incentive to just pay the taxes.

        If you believe to know which ones are overvalued, then you should try to go buy short positions in them. Maybe you become rich then?

        Who says I haven't done that already?

        The stock market is relatively precise, it also projects potential into the future.

        The stock market is not precise. I have data and papers discussing this - but there's no need for them. I'll instead leave you with a simple question: if the stock market is so precise, why is there a major crash every decade?

        Due to that many stocks to combat climate change have risen in popularity and a lot of money has been brought to said companies by purely capitalistic driven motives.

        Sure, purely capitalistic motives, which is why a lot of these are impractical venture capital BS and outright scams. It is currently more profitable to greenwash than it is to actually solve the problem.

        You don't have to take my word for it: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/26/chamath-palihapitiya-esg-investing-is-a-complete-fraud.html

        • The rich would just leave the country and some other country would profit from their taxes.

          This is an oft-repeated talking point but usually contradicted by data. Sounds smart but isn't smart.

          Yes and No. it leads depends on the country and where it is still tolerable and where it is not. In Germany and France we already see people leave. link to a german article. you will need a translator.

          Rich people are people and most people don't just up and leave behind places they've built their lives in unless under extreme pressure. A few billionaires might relocate to the Bahamas but they're not going to be able to take their mansions and penthouses with them - and they lose out on the markets, infrastructure, and other benefits of their home countries. That's a major incentive to just pay the taxes.

          As I said, it depends on the country and the relative situation to other countries.

          If you believe to know which ones are overvalued, then you should try to go buy short positions in them. Maybe you become rich then?

          Who says I haven't done that already?

          I do. Because you are still here. Arguing on the internet, a cesspool of morons, you and I included.

          The stock market is relatively precise, it also projects potential into the future.

          The stock market is not precise. I have data and papers discussing this - but there's no need for them. I'll instead leave you with a simple question: if the stock market is so precise, why is there a major crash every decade?

          Because events, such as Corona and the ausraube war temporarily lower the estimated gains. Losses are expected. So the value weds to be corrected according to those losses.

          Due to that many stocks to combat climate change have risen in popularity and a lot of money has been brought to said companies by purely capitalistic driven motives.

          Sure, purely capitalistic motives, which is why a lot of these are impractical venture capital BS and outright scams. It is currently more profitable to greenwash than it is to actually solve the problem.

          Companies such as Linde plc are no scam. They existed far longer than the climate drama. Their value just increased because demand in their products increased as well. Greenwashing is only done in media. Company winnings and numbers don’t lie. (Except if they do. Fuck wirecard)

          You don't have to take my word for it: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/26/chamath-palihapitiya-esg-investing-is-a-complete-fraud.html

          I will look later into that article.

          • Just read the German article.

            It's interesting, but I have to point out that some of the evidence they use is stuff like manufacturers relocating to China, which happens regardless of tax rates.

            The stuff about energy costs is also nothing to do with taxes but rather Germany's energy policy missteps.

            Also the author randomly referring to "Genderforschern" und "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten" at the end damages the credibility of the article a lot - seems very culture-war motivated.

            I agree that the way in which the taxes are implemented and how the bureaucracy works has a major impact though. But this doesn't mean taxing the rich is imppssible, just needs to be done right, like all policy.

            I do. Because you are still here. Arguing on the internet, a cesspool of morons, you and I included.

            Rich people waste time arguing with morons on the internet all the time! Have you seen Musk's Twitter feed lately?

            In fact the only reason I am doing this is because I have time to kill; and that's only possible thanks to the fact that I am wealthy enough to take days off work pretty much whenever I want, without fearing starvation. Unlike ~90% of people globally who live paycheck to paycheck.

            The idea that rich people are always busy being productive is simply wrong. I know enough of them personally to know that most of their 'working' hours aren't very strenuous to say the least.

            https://www.readthemaple.com/i-was-born-wealthy-and-know-rich-people-dont-work-harder-than-you/

            Because events, such as Corona and the ausraube war temporarily lower the estimated gains. Losses are expected. So the value weds to be corrected according to those losses.

            Have you heard of the 2008 crash? Dot com bubble? SVB, FTX and other crypto crap, etc? Markets crash regularly regardless of Corona or wars.

            Also the fact that markets fail to consider wars and pandemics, whereas experts were warning about these for years before they happened, is further evidence that we can do better than relying on markets for everything.

            There must be some way to develop a system of knowledge aggregation, decisionmaking, and resource allocation that isn't prone to ignoring very obvious risks.

            Greenwashing is only done in media. Company winnings and numbers don’t lie. (Except if they do. Fuck wirecard)

            Company winnings and numbers lie all the time. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Wx51CffrBIg https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Y9KPcQqG0ao

            There are countless cases of companies making shit up and markets and investors falling for it.

            • The stuff about energy costs is also nothing to do with taxes but rather Germany's energy policy missteps.

              Nah. To my knowledge we have the second highest tax on energy worldwide. Has always been this way. It’s a tax thing.

              Also the author randomly referring to "Genderforschern" und "Gleichstellungsbeauftragten" at the end damages the credibility of the article a lot - seems very culture-war motivated.

              The article is written by a left leaning press. So if you allow yourself to suggest non-neutrality, then they should be in favour of your argument.

              I agree that the way in which the taxes are implemented and how the bureaucracy works has a major impact though. But this doesn't mean taxing the rich is imppssible, just needs to be done right, like all policy.

              The rich have yachts and housing all around the world. No tax policy can stop them from running and getting citizenship from a country that take skews taxes.

              I do. Because you are still here. Arguing on the internet, a cesspool of morons, you and I included.

              Rich people waste time arguing with morons on the internet all the time! Have you seen Musk's Twitter feed lately?

              That dude is actively trying to shape the opinion of people for his own interest. I am confident that this is work to him. He already did this with crypto or with the Tesla stock price. It’s marketing and marketing is work as well. All the political left are already supporting the idea of electric vehicles. Now it’s time for the conservatives. And musk is luring them towards his company.

              In fact the only reason I am doing this is because I have time to kill; and that's only possible thanks to the fact that I am wealthy enough to take days off work pretty much whenever I want, without fearing starvation. Unlike ~90% of people globally who live paycheck to paycheck.

              So I guess you are not building something yourself? You just work a well paying job? I can’t rly believe that.

              The idea that rich people are always busy being productive is simply wrong. I know enough of them personally to know that most of their 'working' hours aren't very strenuous to say the least.

              It what kin of rich are you talking about? Is it the super rich, that people claim need to pay higher tax rates? Or is it the “rich” pharmacist or doctor living next door?

              https://www.readthemaple.com/i-was-born-wealthy-and-know-rich-people-dont-work-harder-than-you/

              Because events, such as Corona and the ausraube war temporarily lower the estimated gains. Losses are expected. So the value weds to be corrected according to those losses.

              Have you heard of the 2008 crash? Dot com bubble? SVB, FTX and other crypto crap, etc? Markets crash regularly regardless of Corona or wars.

              Yes I heard about them. But these bubbles exploding because of miso reduction into the future. Prediction that was more plausible in earlier stages. And the stock market is in fact trying to project the future. One cannot invest into the past.

              Also the fact that markets fail to consider wars and pandemics, whereas experts were warning about these for years before they happened, is further evidence that we can do better than relying on markets for everything.

              Nah, the markets acted according to warnings. Especially he Ukraine war. The values dropped, when Russia collected its soldiers at the border, and when US experts warned of the impending attack, publicly, the value dropped even further.

              There must be some way to develop a system of knowledge aggregation, decisionmaking, and resource allocation that isn't prone to ignoring very obvious risks.

              An ideal system does not exist. The one we have is fairly reactive.

              Greenwashing is only done in media. Company winnings and numbers don’t lie. (Except if they do. Fuck wirecard)

              Company winnings and numbers lie all the time. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Wx51CffrBIg https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Y9KPcQqG0ao

              Yes, fraud is still a thing. But usually it can be spotted in the data. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

              There are countless cases of companies making shit up and markets and investors falling for it.

              Yea. Such as Theranos? I knew that it was fake back then. I was wrong though with Wirecard. But there is no system resilient against fraud.

              • Nah. To my knowledge we have the second highest tax on energy worldwide. Has always been this way. It’s a tax thing.

                Idk about the tax rates but Germany also decided to become dependent on Russian gas, which is a major factor tax or no tax.

                The article is written by a left leaning press. So if you allow yourself to suggest non-neutrality, then they should be in favour of your argument.

                1. I'm not 'left-leaning', that term is too broad to mean anything at this point.
                2. I looked up the author and all his books are titled something along the lines of 'In Defence of Capitalism' so idk man

                That dude is actively trying to shape the opinion of people for his own interest. I am confident that this is work to him. He already did this with crypto or with the Tesla stock price. It’s marketing and marketing is work as well. All the political left are already supporting the idea of electric vehicles. Now it’s time for the conservatives. And musk is luring them towards his company.

                If you want to believe his shitposting and constant man-child meltdowns are part of a galaxy-brained plan to convince conservatives to buy electric cars, have fun with that. In reality, he's just a self-obsessed guy seeking more and more attention and that's plainly obvious.

                So I guess you are not building something yourself? You just work a well paying job? I can’t rly believe that.

                You've never heard of self-employed contractors? If you have a valuable enough skill, people pay quite well for specific projects. Once the project (or your part in it) is done, you can just chill with your money, or accept a new one. It's pretty straightforward. Won't earn me billions but is good enough to have a chill life.

                An ideal system does not exist. The one we have is fairly reactive.

                Who said anything about an ideal system? I want a better one. Mainly one that doesn't burn down the planet I live on. We need to be working on developing new systems, but that won't happpen if we keep chanting 'Capitalism good, Communism bad'.

                there is no system resilient against fraud Yet.

                Resilience is not a binary. We could make a system that's relatively more resilient against fraud and/or short-term thinking.

                I'm sure it's within the capacity of humanity to improve upon Capitalism. The only question is: will we do it in time to survive the 21st Century?

669 comments