2mo ago

Two things can be true at the same time

You're viewing a single thread.

236 comments

And that's cool...
As long as when people want her to align more closely with the Dem voting base, you don't yell at them for questioning the only option and imply they're trying to help trump.
That bullshit only depresses Dem turnout and actually helps trump.
It's just completely nonsensical to hear all the "moderates" claim they'd vote for anyone not trump, then go feral when someone points out banning fracking would hand the Dems Pennsylvania which trump needs to win the election.
There are multiple issues like that where if Kamala moved to the left she'd lock this election down.
If you truly only care about beating trump, your time online would be more productive trying to pull the party left than trying to pull tens of millions of voters to the right...
With the obvious benefit of getting those popular policies on top of beating trump.
- If it's not been posted already...
  https://theintercept.com/2024/09/10/polls-arms-embargo-israel-weapons-gaza/
  Banning sales of arms to Israel would not only attract a huge proportion of otherwise reluctant leftists, but might even steal votes from Trump as a small but not insignificant number of voters have been fooled by his 'started no wars' con. The idea that doing so would lose some key demographic is clearly not supported by the data.
  But the Democratic strategists are not idiots. They must know this. So one of two things is the case; the polling is wrong, or the Democrats have absolutely no desire to move leftward on this and are willing to risk a Trump win to hold out on their position.
  We can rule out the first because if the Democrats had better poll data they'd share it. Nothing to lose by doing so.
  So we're left with the second.
  Odd then that the online vitriol is delivered not to the Democrats for cynically risking a Trump victory, but to leftists for being opposed to genocide.
  
  The idea that doing so would lose some key demographic is clearly not supported by the data.
  They wouldn't lose significant voters, theyd lose a bunch of donations...
  It doesn't cost a billion plus to beat donald trump, but the more money there is, the bigger everyone's slice is and the bigger the bonuses for personally bringing more money is.
  The DNC isn't being run to get Dems in office, it's a fucking grift where sometimes we do get a Dem in office.
  Just never one who's political policy matches Dem voters.
  Look at current DNC leadership, it's not people that know how to win elections, it's just whoever can bring in the most donations.
  The result is ridiculously expensive and incompetent campaigns. The solution is clearing house at the DNC.
  
  The DNC isn't being run to get Dems in office, it's a fucking grift where sometimes we do get a Dem in office.
  True. And a cushy consulting job, or a few thousand in bonuses seems like an understandable inventive, if a misanthropic one.
  But for those who do the footwork supporting such a system, I just cannot see why. What have the Democrats done to deserve such blind obedience? Is being not-Trump just that impressive these days?
  
  Is being not-Trump just that impressive these days?
  Today? Yes. Come inauguration day? Absolutely fucking not. If Kamala wins I'll talk shit, write letters, donate to causes, protest, and cause trouble from the first day she's in office until the end of primary season 4 years from now. Then I'm back on the train.
  Unless we can get rid of FPTP. Then I'm talking shit every day all fucking day long while happily voting for a candidate who agrees with me most instead of the one I disagree with the least.
  
  If Kamala wins I'll talk shit, write letters, donate to causes, protest, and cause trouble from the first day she's in office until the end of primary season 4 years from now
  Why?
  Most people in America want to end sales of arms to Israel, don't want to be complicit in genocide.
  And Harris is abusing her power by ignoring that to satisfy a few wealthy donors by threatening you all with Trump if you don't let her do what she wants.
  The only way to stop abuse of power is to stand up to it. If you let her (or her replacements) just frighten you into submission with bogeymen you might as well give up any hope of progress.
  
  Edit: this started out as a single word question. The diatribe came after my reply.
  It's a reasonable question. Because I don't think she'll go far enough. And if she goes further than I think she will, I'll push her to go further left than that. I'm not nearly as far left as a lot of folks on Lemmy. I probably fall into Social Democrat on a good day. But that puts me further left than most US politics and pretty much all the politics in my home state.
  I'm a pragmatist when it comes to elections. She's good enough to where I don't think she'll sponsor hunting parties for LGBTQ+ folks but I don't think she'll be trying very fucking hard to get universal healthcare or working with states to try to get rid of FPTP.
  Unless your question is why I won't do it after primary season. That's because we don't fight in front of the kids. I'm going to support the furthest left feasible candidate because, again, pragmatic. I'll shut my fucking mouth, back the least fascist, and start trying to affect change again the second I can without shitting on that candidate during election season. Plus I like to take a break between election day and inauguration day because it's all so mentally exhausting and I'll be drinking more than usual for the holidays.
  
  Sorry, I thought you were here asking a reasonable question with my other reply. If I had known you were like this I wouldn't have bothered. Is that why you replied with a single word then edited it instead of spewing your tripe initially?
  If "Israel should finish the job" Trump tickles your butthole, just say so.
  
  Sorry, I thought you were here asking a reasonable question with my other reply. If I had known you were like this I wouldn't have bothered.
  Yep. So when you thought I was going to play the part of the meek little student at their teacher's knee you were happy to respond, but as soon as it was clear I might actually disagree... Instantly I must be a Trump supporter, because literally the only option you can think of that isn't agreeing with you entirely is 'Trump'.
  It's pathetic.
  
  No, you fucking numpty. I thought you were genuinely curious. Understanding someone's motivations doesn't require you to be a good little student, it just requires you to be curious. People ask questions in good faith every day. You weren't curious. Then you were duplicitous about it and try to use gotcha tactics. You made sure to ask then edit after I replied so that it looked like I was engaging with a fucking moron instead of a good faith commenter.
  Those are the tactics of the right. Even if you don't support Trump out loud your actions absolutely do. Go ahead and block me because any time I notice you engaging with my comments I'll go ahead and call you a duplicitous fucknugget. That's more engagement than you deserve, but I'll give you that much, you duplicitous fucknugget.
  
  It doesn’t cost a billion plus to beat donald trump,
  ...
  
  But the Democratic strategists are not idiots. They must know this.
  They always move to the middle in every election chasing "independent" votes that they never get. I see no evidence from history that they "arent idiots".
  
  This is absolutely correct. I'm sure the 40% of voters who want to keep sending weapons to Israel aren't even Harris voters. So clearly the Democratic party is only doing it for the love of genocide and it seems obvious that after they finish the genocide in Gaza and Lebanon they'll shift their focus to genocide of Palestinians and other arabs living in America. This is completely unacceptable to me which is why I voted for Trump.
  I thought about voting for a third party but I live in a swing state and want to minimize the chances of Koncentration Kamp Kamala from getting elected so I directly supported Trump rather than indirectly.
  
  Sooooo… because you can’t be bothered to understand how things work. You voted for someone that suggests that Israel “finish the job.”
  That sure showed those pesky libs!
  You’re about as bad-faith as it gets. You’re MAGA, through and through. Drop the act that it has anything to do with genocide.
  
  "Koncentration Kamp Kamala"
  Listen to yourself. You're beyond delusional. Seek help.
  
  A lot of my relatives died in concentration camps. Why the hell are you trivializing them?
  
  I live in a swing state and want to minimize the chances of Koncentration Kamp Kamala from getting elected so I directly supported Trump rather than indirectly.
  I could no more vote Trump 'tactically' than I could Harris. I think one ought vote according to one's concience. The whole notion of tactical voting makes a mockery of democracy, if no one could be persuaded to vote tactically there'd be significantly less 'electioneering'. More like the Nordic model, with way more parties catering to a broader range of political views.
  You only have to look at the current Democrat campaign, they barely need a policy at all, they're running almost entirely on being not-Trump.
  
  Ignores all the policy announcements Kamala made, complains that there aren't any policies.
  But yes, actually, being not Trump is an excellent reason to vote for Kamala, because there are only two possible outcomes of this election, and one of them is a wannabe dictator, KKK-supporting, idiot putin stooge, racist, hate-filled, selfish, duplicitous, personally disloyal, insurrectionist, unamerican, country betraying, diaper-wearing emotional crybaby thrower of money at the already super-rich, and frankly I'm tired of people pretending that he doesn't desperately need keeping out of the White House.
  
  there are only two possible outcomes of this election
  And there's the problem with all these responses in a nutshell. Shortsightedness.
  Yes, there's only two possible outcomes to this election, and yes Kamala is the better candidate by miles. But your voting actions don't only affect this election, they affect all future elections. They're the background against which all political strategy is determined.
  If you just bend over every time you're threatened with four years of some fuckwit in office, then you've committed to a political system where your opinion on policy ceases to be relevant. All that's required for a complete autocracy is for one party to be a unbearable fascist and then the other party doesn't even have to consider what the electorate actually think because they're the not-fascists, and that's all that's needed.
  And this isn't even slippery-slope. It's happening right now. The not-fascists are actually complicit in war crimes and are still getting your vote . How much worse will it be in four year's time after they've had it proven to work? Why would they ever listen to the electorate on anything ever again?
  
  Yes, there are just two outcomes. If Trump wins, the Democrats will again move to the right to occupy what passes for the centre ground in American politics. Kamala is one of the most pro worker candidates they've had in my lifetime. If they lose against the most incompetently bad president the country had in my lifetime with the most left candidate they've had in decades, they will pivot back to the "centre".
  
  So if they loose because leftists don't like their policies enough to vote for them, they'll pivot right? What would be the logic behind such a decision?
  There's thousands of leftist votes available, all they have to do to access them is produce a more left-wing agenda (like, say, not being complicit in war crimes).
  But you're suggesting in response to this loss (as a result of not denouncing war crimes) they'll not, you know, denounce war crimes next time, but rather shift even more into the ground that's in direct competition with their only opponent and try to win die hard Republicans who'd vote a Big Mac into government if it wore a MAGA cap?
  Can you explain what you think their rationale would be for such a move?
  
  They'll lose because some fatally online "leftists" can't bring themselves to vote democrat no matter how bad the alternative is and they'll pivot right because they have some hope of winning over centrists, and the right wing politicians are the ones who are winning and the supposedly left wing ones get 1% of the popular vote and zero members into the electoral college. It's America after all.
  
  Oh and this...
  They'll lose because some fatally online "leftists" can't bring themselves to vote democrat no matter how bad the alternative is
  ... is a disgrace.
  They work for us. They chase our vote. That's how democracy works. We don't owe them a vote.
  I suggest maybe you stop blaming your fellow man, and defending those in power, and start blaming those in power and defending your fellow man.
  
  They’ll lose because some fatally online “leftists” can’t bring themselves to vote democrat no matter how bad the alternative is
  … is a disgrace.
  True. You should be ashamed of yourselves. This vote matters. Stop pretending it's a game. Trump would be a disaster internationally and for American workers.
  
  they'll pivot right because they have some hope of winning over centrists
  What makes you think that?
  I've already, in a different thread, posted the latest polls showing the majority of Americans want to stop arms sales to Israel. The data suggests stopping arms sales would win a huge number of votes, but it isn't Democrat policy.
  If the Democrats are likely to shift policy to seek votes, then why haven't they shifted to banning arms sales to Israel?
  Absent of further data, it doesn't look at all like Democrat policy follows available votes. It looks more like Democrat policy follows the wishes of their wealthy donors, so unless they tack to the right, I can't see why Democrat policy will.
  If you want to make a case that Democrat policy chases votes, you'll have to explain why they're not chasing the obvious anti-genocide vote?
  
  Sigh. They'd see the republicans win and move right because it's the right who won. Stupid? Yes. Damaging? Yes. Can you or I change it? No.
  It's so illogical of you to suggest that losing to the right will shift them left. That's not how it works. It's not how it ever works. It's not even how it works in countries that have more balanced political systems.
  And victory for an incredibly delusionally far right wing president isn't the left wrong victory you seem to think it would be.
  Stop pretending that if the Democrats lose just one more time, America will suddenly turn communist. It won't. The route left comes through moving left, not lurching to the right again.

236 comments